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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Modern] >> Larry Bond's Harpoon - Ultimate Edition >> Sorry, but this is wrong

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Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 1:23:52 AM

rich12545

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When a company sells a game it's expected it will be supported. The editions of HCE and ANW for Ultimate are the same as what was sold except with the latest patch. They've just been repackaged. They're not new editions or anything like that. Their age is really immaterial.

I don't care about old harpoon games. The two new ones have much better features and there's no reason to play an old one. And there are more than enough scenarios available and more being made all the time. I think the majority of players feel the same. So now I'm being asked to fork over $35 (plus tax in my state) for two games I already bought just to get future patches that may or may not be forthcoming. This is really incredibly terrible service that comes from a company that normally gives good service. How in the world did MG ever come up with this crazy idea?

Furthermore, in today's economy this can be a real burden to a lot of players who already bought the game once.

I suggest MG change to one of two things.

1. Make future patches available to owners of HCE and ANW regardless of an Ultimate purchase.
or
2. Offer a $25 credit for each game previously purchased. If HCE or ANW there is a $25 discount. If both had been purchased in the past then there is a $50 discount.

How about trying to be fair.

Post #: 1

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 1:39:06 AM

Hertston

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Too late. I've already forked out on the basis of the $25 discount (I already had both games) on the basis that's the only way to get future support; I don't give a rat's arse about a lot of DOS versions either. I suspect many, if not most purchasers, are in the same position, and would not be exactly pleased if things were changed now. Erik has stated it was a matter of economic necessity, which I suppose we have to accept, but I could do without the BS about this being a 'new release' rather than a 're-release'. Harpoon 4 would be a new release!

I might be in a better mood if I could even get ACW (any of them) to bl**dy work properly; they seem to have introduced a game-breaking bug in terms of mouse pointer behavior, at least for me and the others who have reported it.

(in reply to rich12545)

Post #: 2

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 1:45:30 AM

TonyAAA

Posts: 141
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From: Arlington, TX
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I've got mixed feeling on this.�

I understand a game won't be supported forever, but Matrix has done this kind of thing to me several times:

I bought Gary Grisby's World at War only to see support dropped in favor of the updated "a world divided"

I bought War in the Pacific only to see support dropped in favor of the Admiral's Edition.

I bought both of thier Harpoons only to see support dropped in favor of the Ultimate Edition.

At this point, I'm very leery of buying any of their new releases.

(in reply to Hertston)

Post #: 3

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 2:01:27 AM

junk2drive

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I have no interest in this game or this battle. But I must stick my thoughts in. A game developer cannot survive on one release. Some move to different subjects, some to different scales, some release a new engine with the same name and subject. Nowadays some call them modules or expansions. I just think this is the way it is going to be. You pay for a game and you pay when it changes or gets added to. Up to us to decide to get out the wallet or not.

(in reply to TonyAAA)

Post #: 4

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 2:30:49 AM

rich12545

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I have no interest in this game or this battle. But I must stick my thoughts in. A game developer cannot survive on one release. Some move to different subjects, some to different scales, some release a new engine with the same name and subject. Nowadays some call them modules or expansions. I just think this is the way it is going to be. You pay for a game and you pay when it changes or gets added to. Up to us to decide to get out the wallet or not.

Using this logic, pretty soon we will pay for the release and then pay for each additional patch. Sorry, it doesn't fly.

Saying MG needs to do this to make more money doesn't fly either. For example, TOAW will soon receive a major new patch that has been in the works for more than two years. There will be no charge. But nobody at MG is saying "pay us $20 or you won't get any more patches." And TOAW iirc has been around as long as Harpoon at MG. Yet they're saying this with Harpoon. It's not right.

Ultimate is not a new release. HCE and ANW don't even have new names. They are the same games.

I have no objection to this repackage setup for new purchasers. And I understand the need for more dollars. But don't screw over existing owners of the games while you're at it.

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 5

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 2:38:09 AM

Rosseau

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Rich and Hertston-- What if you only had HCE? Would it be worth it then?

Sorry to go off-topic a bit, and I definitely understand your concerns.

It's just I've never been able to justify having both versions. Am I wrong?

Thanks guys

(in reply to rich12545)

Post #: 6

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 2:41:50 AM

junk2drive

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I've never played this game so I don't know the details. If a game is broken to the point of not or barely playable, then it should be fixed for free. If the new release is a different engine than it should be paid for.

Did GGWAW work as advertised? And then they moved on? Or did they fix WAW and sell it as WAWAWD?

(in reply to rich12545)

Post #: 7

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 3:12:26 AM

Rosseau

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WAW worked as advertised, and WAWAWD was enhanced. Enough so I bought it, anyway.

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 8

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 3:21:03 AM

ruixilyy

Posts: 117
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I have to mention that the graphics and UI of H3ANW is almost the same as early 1990s games. I guess if Red Pills releases in a year or two, then I may switch to RP instead of hanging in the buggy H3ANW. Of course, the HCE is much better, but I still think it is not a good idea to focus too much on a 20 year old game interface and graphics. Come on, it is almost 2011, and still little enhance are made to the graphics of H3! The Ageis Palette still looks ugly and indeed, it is far from reality!

(in reply to junk2drive)

Post #: 9

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 3:39:45 AM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

Rich and Hertston-- What if you only had HCE? Would it be worth it then?

Yes; they are very different games, and if you like one you'll probably like the other. Depends on whether your interest in the subject matter is fully sated by HCE or not. It's like everything; it's worth it if you'll get enough hours of additional entertainment out of it to justify it. You can never guarantee that in advance. The discount was less than I'd been hoping for (I certainly agree it should have been more if you had already purchased both games) but, to be honest, more than I had expected based on recent form.

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 10

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 4:10:44 AM

rich12545

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Exactly. It should be $25 PER game owned. Or simply provide the patches, and this would be the preferred method.

The games in the Ultimate edition are the EXACT same ones we already own. They want $35 for future patches for games we already paid for. It's not right.

(in reply to Hertston)

Post #: 11

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 4:11:45 AM

rich12545

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

Rich and Hertston-- What if you only had HCE? Would it be worth it then?

Sorry to go off-topic a bit, and I definitely understand your concerns.

It's just I've never been able to justify having both versions. Am I wrong?

Thanks guys

It would be worth it if I wanted ANW. Otherwise, no.

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 12

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 4:32:07 AM

TonyE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Exactly. It should be $25 PER game owned. Or simply provide the patches, and this would be the preferred method.

The games in the Ultimate edition are the EXACT same ones we already own. They want $35 for future patches for games we already paid for. It's not right.

I mean no offense but I do take offense at you saying HCE is the EXACT same one you already own. Myself and quite a few others have invested a large amount of time on each HC patch and we look to continue doing that. I can't tell Matrix what to do but I can keep cranking out patches on a volunteer basis, that's what the HC (and most of the ANW) side is, volunteers.

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to rich12545)

Post #: 13

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 4:51:02 AM

Rosseau

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Well, I'm in. But if I already had both games, I would grab the free upcoming patches and enjoy them. Then, when they had improved the Ultimate Edition to where I couldn't stand it any more, I'd lay down the $35 or whatever.

(in reply to TonyE)

Post #: 14

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 5:03:04 AM

rich12545

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Exactly. It should be $25 PER game owned. Or simply provide the patches, and this would be the preferred method.

The games in the Ultimate edition are the EXACT same ones we already own. They want $35 for future patches for games we already paid for. It's not right.

I mean no offense but I do take offense at you saying HCE is the EXACT same one you already own. Myself and quite a few others have invested a large amount of time on each HC patch and we look to continue doing that. I can't tell Matrix what to do but I can keep cranking out patches on a volunteer basis, that's what the HC (and most of the ANW) side is, volunteers.

No offense meant. But HCE is the exact same game I already own except for the patch. I already said that in the original post.

"The editions of HCE and ANW for Ultimate are the same as what was sold except with the latest patch."

Some of the games from MG are improved be volunteers. This is greatly appreciated. TOAW for example. Volunteers. There will be a humongous patch for TOAW soon. But MG is not charging for patches beyond that. However, they are for Harpoon. And it's not right.

Again, it's the SAME game. And MG is charging for patches. This is really beyond the pale.

(in reply to TonyE)

Post #: 15

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 6:17:46 AM

jomni

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As for me I don't have ANW so this is an incentive to jump into ANW. But I find HCE engine to be superior and more stable.

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Post #: 16

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 7:46:33 AM

V22 Osprey

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Simply put, the way I see it, it's worth it if you are new or only bought one of the two games. If you bought both, I can see how it seems kind of a rip off. Yes, you get all previous versions of Harpoon, but question is;Why would I go through the trouble of running the old version when I can play a better improved version that runs natively on my system? I will buy this, but I guarantee 99% I will be playing HCE or ANW. Only running the older versions for a minute or two out of curiosity.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 11/5/2010 7:47:53 AM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 8:37:51 AM

JudgeDredd

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Well - my stance is this....

I only have HCE - I never bought ANW and never had the urge to.

But if either of those games (I haven't actually played HCE for quite some time - sits on the hard drive waiting though) are broken or hav broken features, then Matrixgames should be fixing them - not repackaging them and reselling them and stopping support.

The people who have both should be suitably reimbursed in order to get that continued support if Matrix wants to go down the repackage, resell and quit support route.

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Post #: 18

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 11:08:59 AM

noguaranteeofsanity

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I disagree and think that it is both reasonably priced and not an unreasonable decision by Matrix, nor unprecedented. It already happened when Harpoon 3.63 was reinvented as Harpoon Advanced Naval Warfare and was reasonable then, to cover the costs of further development, as it is now. Considering the market for Harpoon, Matrix will probably be very lucky to sell a few thousand copies of the game. That is basically only going to cover the costs of having a couple of staff to update and maintain the game, for a couple of years at most. I'm happy to pay, as I did when I updated from 3.63 to ANW, in order to see the game continued to be improved and maintained, instead of development and updates coming to an end, which happens to almost every other game. I have played Harpoon for probably more than 15 years now, since way back when it was available for the Amiga and it would have to be one of the lost running series of games around, so it is great to see it continue.

Also disagree about need for a graphics improvement, 3D would be next to useless in Harpoon and the interface as it is now is sufficient and extremely functional in communicating the information needed to play the game. Admittedly Red Pill looks better, but essentially it is only the map that has been dramatically improved, on top of a slightly more polished interface, but is still essentially 2D and not much different from what Harpoon offers.

< Message edited by noguaranteeofsanity -- 11/5/2010 11:11:42 AM >

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Post #: 19

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 11:41:32 AM

JudgeDredd

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Maybe because it's happened before you've become desensitised to the pricing issue? I don't know.

I really haven't played enough of HCE to know if there are still bugs in it and I haven't played ANW at all to know...but there seems to be one particular guy who thinks there are still some major flaws in ANW. If he's right, to stop support and repackage the same bugged game and sell it telling people they'll get support if they repay is wrong.

I think I've finished here as I have no proof either way and no intention of re-buying a game to get support - like I said - if there are game bugs that need addressing and they will not be going forward, the method being used here is wrong

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Post #: 20

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 11:48:59 AM

thewood1

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One of the issues I have is that the HCE scenario editor still won't run on a typical 64 bit machine. I mean if you are going to charge me a gain for a patch, at least get all the components to run on a modern machine.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 21

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 11:58:10 AM

noguaranteeofsanity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Maybe because it's happened before you've become desensitised to the pricing issue? I don't know.

I really haven't played enough of HCE to know if there are still bugs in it and I haven't played ANW at all to know...but there seems to be one particular guy who thinks there are still some major flaws in ANW. If he's right, to stop support and repackage the same bugged game and sell it telling people they'll get support if they repay is wrong.

I think I've finished here as I have no proof either way and no intention of re-buying a game to get support - like I said - if there are game bugs that need addressing and they will not be going forward, the method being used here is wrong

I don't think I have been desensitised to the pricing issue, although admittedly the Australian Dollar for the first time being worth more than the US dollar, certainly helped.

Also I lurked on the forums here for quite a while and think I know who you are referring to. There once was a thriving community of Harpooners, but which largely fell apart after numerous problems and I personally wouldn't listen to that guy.

Lastly it has also been my experienced that Matrix provide excellent support for their games and updates, long after the release. I also believe a lot of the bugs were addressed in the new Harpoon Ultimate, ANW edition.

< Message edited by noguaranteeofsanity -- 11/5/2010 11:59:40 AM >

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 22

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 1:08:51 PM

jomni

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I think it's not a real Matrix decision as they don't do this to all games.
This is the decision of the Harpoon developers (AGS) who have been doing this sort of thing since the beginning.

< Message edited by jomni -- 11/5/2010 1:09:00 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 1:10:25 PM

Oliver Heindorf

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Being a�old Harpoon 2002�customer and�had only HP2 on the PC�, I bought the last titel before this Harpoon thing joind Matrix.

Here is, for me, a good�opportunity to grab the latest versions togehter.

fair ? this is business. compare to yourself.

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Post #: 24

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 2:36:06 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
When a company sells a game it's expected it will be supported. The editions of HCE and ANW for Ultimate are the same as what was sold except with the latest patch. They've just been repackaged. They're not new editions or anything like that. Their age is really immaterial.

Free support was provided for 3-4 years. Regardless of when you purchased these titles, you benefited from that support in the form of updates. Because of how the market works, a new release is necessary periodically to keep a series from declining beyond the point where development is sustainable. We are providing free updates to previous owners to the Ultimate Edition releases, but free support will end there. I think 3-4 years of free post release support and updates is actually outstanding compared to most games and developers.

On top of that, the new release combines both previous releases and adds a discount coupon for existing customers to bring the price down to at or below that of a single release and your future support path now includes both releases for that price. The classic versions are effectively a bonus. Even if you have no interest in them, you still get the two newest release for the price of one and thus ensure continued development of the series. If you are a fan of Harpoon, I honestly don't see how we are asking too much here, or too often, or not offering enough in the package.

quote:

How about trying to be fair.

I don't think it would be fair to expect anyone to spend more than four years providing free support for a release without asking customers to chip in for future development. Selling products that previously sold for about $80 combined, along with the classic versions for a total of $10 also doesn't seem very fair to me. I think that asking for about $35 every four years or so to keep Harpoon going and offering a release that gives you more than twice as much bang for the buck as the last releases is not unfair.

I'm sorry you are disappointed, but I hope you will also see things from our point of view. We actually feel that this is a very good and reasonably priced release for both new customers and existing owners of Harpoon. We know that from the point of view of the development time that went into just this release, not to mention the previous years of updates, this is a fair deal.

Regards,

- Erik

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to rich12545)

Post #: 25

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 2:42:22 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tony_A
I bought Gary Grisby's World at War only to see support dropped in favor of the updated "a world divided"

World at War was fully supported. A World Divided was the sequel and the features therein went well beyond an update. It had a full year of addiitonal development. No one who owned World at War was left hanging - that game was and is a great game that received updates and support after release, but it was aimed primarily at the retail market. A World Divided was our sequel to World at War aimed more at our own market.

quote:

I bought War in the Pacific only to see support dropped in favor of the Admiral's Edition.

Yes, after about four years of free support including about 25 updates (and there is one more still in the works, though it's coming along slowly), and after a development process that included dozens of man-years of effort, Admiral's Edition replaced War in the Pacific. As far as I know, everyone who owned War in the Pacific considered it one of the best bargains ever in gaming both in terms of the enjoyment per dollar and the amount of post-release support, which included major feature additions as well as many bug fixes.

quote:

I bought both of thier Harpoons only to see support dropped in favor of the Ultimate Edition.

And each of these also benefited from 3-4 years of free updates and additional development before the Ultimate Edition (which included another year plus of development into the making of it) was released. On top of that, we're providing the Ultimate Edition versions as the last free updates and we're offering an upgrade discount that gives you twice the value of the previous releases.

I really do understand how easy it is to think that we are just out for the money, but seriously how does fully supporting our games and eventually giving them sequels constitute anything but good support? I would think that continued activity in all of these games, including sequels and new releases as well as years of free updates would actually make most fans happy. If your favorite game receives no updates and no sequel releases, eventually it simply withers on the vine.

Regards,

- Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to TonyAAA)

Post #: 26

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 2:46:25 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
No offense meant. But HCE is the exact same game I already own except for the patch. I already said that in the original post.
"The editions of HCE and ANW for Ultimate are the same as what was sold except with the latest patch."

If one is continuing development with the same game engine, by your definition every release after 1.00 is therefore a patch? There has to be a limit. A lot more work went into this release than just a patch and that's on top of years of free updates previously. I don't think you are really looking at this fairly. If we offered endless free updates simply because the base engine has things in common with older releases, we would be out of business. If we asked $10 for a release that took more than a year of development time, we'd be out of business. I think we've done as much as any publisher and developer reasonably can to make this release affordable and to make sure it is good value for the money after providing years of free support to the last releases.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to rich12545)

Post #: 27

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 3:09:16 PM

thewood1

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What's unusual about this is that you are paying for "possible" future updates, not to actually update the game you already own. IOW, I may pay the $35, but it might be two years before I see anything for it. Again, this references people who already own both games.

Not many companies charge you for something with basically no promise to deliver. So in the end, we people who own both games already, are only being delivered some older versions of the game.

Not saying I have any real problem with that, but it is different model than almost any other company out there.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 28

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 3:12:07 PM

Erik Rutins

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I'm not sure anyone here was trying to make any distinction there. I can say that there will be post-release updates for Harpoon Ultimate Edition, it's not just "possible" it will happen.

Regards,

- Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 29

RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 3:20:50 PM

HercMighty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I don't think it would be fair to expect anyone to spend more than four years providing free support for a release without asking customers to chip in for future development. Selling products that previously sold for about $80 combined, along with the classic versions for a total of $10 also doesn't seem very fair to me. I think that asking for about $35 every four years or so to keep Harpoon going and offering a release that gives you more than twice as much bang for the buck as the last releases is not unfair.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik,

The only problem here is that the support was issues or deficiencies in the product sold. We have every right to expect those to be corrected no matter how long it takes. No real change has been done to add anything new to the game. Matrix should have scoped this out better before agreeing to being the publisher, and any reworks to the code have been to correct errors or deficiencies that existed when people bought the product.

Now take AI War that just went from 3.0 to 4.0 and was a major overhaul to the graphics, code optimizations and bug fixes. And that was free to existing 3.0 players. I would have even paid for that. But this? I will vote with my wallet and even with the discount, no thanks.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 30