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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong

 
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RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 3:25:03 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		I understand a new releaae is needed for funding,...but how about making it just that,...a NEW release,...and not a patch to an OLD (or in this case 2) game.

You want to get paid for a new release,.....make a new game.

The fact of the matter is IF it has taken so many years to get the game right it IS NOT the customers fault and they should not have to pay for it.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 31
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 4:05:20 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HercMighty
The only problem here is that the support was issues or deficiencies in the product sold. We have every right to expect those to be corrected no matter how long it takes.


First, all complex games have bugs. H3ANW was buggy at release. Many, many updates over the course of years made major improvements. As of 3.9.4, I think it's working well. We are also providing 3.10 as a free update to owners of H3ANW on top of that.

quote:

No real change has been done to add anything new to the game.


That's not true. Improvements on Harpoon are evolutionary by nature rather than revolutionary. Continued improvements to the models to keep them up to date with the latest research and most realistic information from Bond and Carlson, an overhaul of the in-game art adding a whole new library of ship and plane art and addition of boarding actions to model the recent anti-piracy actions are among the improvements on the H3ANW side of this release.

quote:

Now take AI War that just went from 3.0 to 4.0 and was a major overhaul to the graphics, code optimizations and bug fixes. And that was free to existing 3.0 players. I would have even paid for that. But this? I will vote with my wallet and even with the discount, no thanks.


For H3ANW 3.10, the code was optimized, bugs were fixed, new features were added including a whole new library of improved ship and plane art. This will also be provided free to existing H3ANW customers, but it's also the basis for this new release. While AI War is based on a newer engine and has completely different goals as a RTS game, I don't see a lot of difference between our approaches on the base level. We improved the same areas, in addition to improving the underlying models which are one of the most important points for the naval warfare simulation community.

I think there's also a fundamental misunderstanding of how much it would cost to create a new Harpoon engine from the ground up and just replicate all the functionality and content that already exists in the current releases. It would cost much more than this market can support at this point, unfortunately. Evolutionary improvements through updates to the existing engines are the best way to keep Harpoon improving and relevant. Ultimately, these are simulations as much as games and the fidelity of the results and the comprehensiveness of the data and scenarios means more than a new underlying graphical engine would.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to HercMighty)
Post #: 32
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 4:39:29 PM   
boatrigm


Posts: 145
Joined: 9/17/2009
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I think matrix has done great suppoting their games. Most game companies do not have much support after a few months. I have got my moneys worth and more from CE. I think a lot of us have gotten use to matrix long support cycle. Just look at other game companies before judging matrix so hard.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 33
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 5:11:33 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
When a company sells a game it's expected it will be supported. The editions of HCE and ANW for Ultimate are the same as what was sold except with the latest patch. They've just been repackaged. They're not new editions or anything like that. Their age is really immaterial.


Free support was provided for 3-4 years. Regardless of when you purchased these titles, you benefited from that support in the form of updates. Because of how the market works, a new release is necessary periodically to keep a series from declining beyond the point where development is sustainable. We are providing free updates to previous owners to the Ultimate Edition releases, but free support will end there. I think 3-4 years of free post release support and updates is actually outstanding compared to most games and developers.

On top of that, the new release combines both previous releases and adds a discount coupon for existing customers to bring the price down to at or below that of a single release and your future support path now includes both releases for that price. The classic versions are effectively a bonus. Even if you have no interest in them, you still get the two newest release for the price of one and thus ensure continued development of the series. If you are a fan of Harpoon, I honestly don't see how we are asking too much here, or too often, or not offering enough in the package.

quote:

How about trying to be fair.


I don't think it would be fair to expect anyone to spend more than four years providing free support for a release without asking customers to chip in for future development. Selling products that previously sold for about $80 combined, along with the classic versions for a total of $10 also doesn't seem very fair to me. I think that asking for about $35 every four years or so to keep Harpoon going and offering a release that gives you more than twice as much bang for the buck as the last releases is not unfair.

I'm sorry you are disappointed, but I hope you will also see things from our point of view. We actually feel that this is a very good and reasonably priced release for both new customers and existing owners of Harpoon. We know that from the point of view of the development time that went into just this release, not to mention the previous years of updates, this is a fair deal.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik, this is just a little misleading. The updates have been the result of volunteers. There is no Harpoon programmer being paid to improve the game. So MG is charging extra after getting the work for free.

You should go into politics, your post is really spin. Who put an arbitrary limit on how long to allow volunteers to improve the game before you start charging us again? Actually what's been happening is we've been getting mods that have been packaged by MG.

Look at TOAW. We're ready to get a huge update. That game is about as old as Harpoon. Are you going to start charging for future patches.

Charging $35 for future patches that are done by volunteers is a rip off. There's no other way to put it. If you want MG to start doing business that way there's nothing anyone can do about it. It's just sad seeing MG sinking so low after so many years of giving excellent service.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 34
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 5:17:43 PM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
There is no Harpoon programmer being paid to improve the game.


Well, that's not strictly true. But the HC side is volunteers and most of ANW is. Read the links of my signature .



_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to rich12545)
Post #: 35
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 5:31:49 PM   
Nebogipfel


Posts: 98
Joined: 3/16/2010
Status: offline 		I guess, everyone here is smart enough to recognize, that such complex games like Harpoon will allways have some couple of bugs and need more fine tuning as most other games do.

If the message would have been, we need money to guarantee further development of this game, I think most of us wouldn`t be so upset.

But that´s not the point. Above all, the customer once more is buying a buggy game, advertised as e "new" release, that is what people makes going crazy.

Simply most of us don´t believe, that things not being managed in years now will change over night.

Spend your money and everything will be great ? What kind of marketing is that ?



(in reply to rich12545)
Post #: 36
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 5:42:02 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
There is no Harpoon programmer being paid to improve the game.


Well, that's not strictly true. But the HC side is volunteers and most of ANW is. Read the links of my signature .




Although I've purchased both I don't play ANW any more, just CE. All future patches will be done by volunteers. I believe I'm entitled to those patches without paying more for them especially since they're not costing MG anything. Charging extra is just a rip off. Sorry to be blunt but I don't know an easier way to say it.

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 37
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 6:00:49 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Erik, this is just a little misleading. The updates have been the result of volunteers. There is no Harpoon programmer being paid to improve the game. So MG is charging extra after getting the work for free.


That is not true. Harpoon sales do go to fund development.

quote:

Look at TOAW. We're ready to get a huge update. That game is about as old as Harpoon. Are you going to start charging for future patches.


Note that we are not charging for the TOAW update, just as we haven't charged for other updates on many games over the years, despite years of future support. This is not an update, there are significant improvements, additional art and additional development time - which cost money - as well as many other expenses related to the organization and production of these titles.

Your example simply shows that it is in fact not our policy to charge for updates and that we do put customers first. However, we can't put you ahead of the future development or survival of a title. This is a business and despite your assumptions, it does cost money to continue to develop Harpoon - both the updates and the releases. The number of paid staff associated with Harpoon varies based on what the sales can support, but this is not a free product on the development side.

Similarly with TOAW, the reason that update is coming out is partly because the team that worked on it loves TOAW and partly because they have been funded by past royalties and will get future royalties from TOAW as well, which encourages continued development.

Frankly, I just don't understand how you think that we can indefinitely provide updates for a product that does have development cost in exchange for nothing. Even if the developer were working for nothing, which is not a policy we subscribe to (we welcome volunteers, as does AGSI, but we compensate them with royalties if not through payroll), it doesn't cost nothing to maintain everything else related to these releases.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/5/2010 6:01:20 PM >

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to rich12545)
Post #: 38
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 6:02:51 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Although I've purchased both I don't play ANW any more, just CE. All future patches will be done by volunteers. I believe I'm entitled to those patches without paying more for them especially since they're not costing MG anything. Charging extra is just a rip off. Sorry to be blunt but I don't know an easier way to say it.


I'm not privy to AGSI's internal arrangements, but I can say that HCE does not exist in a vacuum. Harpoon as a whole needs to be supported if any of it is going to continue.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to rich12545)
Post #: 39
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 6:05:12 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nebogipfel
If the message would have been, we need money to guarantee further development of this game, I think most of us wouldn`t be so upset.
But that´s not the point. Above all, the customer once more is buying a buggy game, advertised as e "new" release, that is what people makes going crazy.


I see enough value in the package as offered, which I've explained before, that this is not just a case of "give us more money". Yes, this will support further development of Harpoon, but we're selling a product which we feel is a good value and has had substantial additional development to make it worth the fairly low upgrade cost. If you disagree, that is your choice as a customer and I respect that. I might suggest that you give the upcoming free updates a try and see if you still feel the same way though.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Nebogipfel)
Post #: 40
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 6:52:13 PM   
chrisol

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 1/5/2008
From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline 		I guess TOAW and Harpoon illustrate the approach I've taken to these games:

I bought TOAW:II orginally (modern battles) and very much enjoyed the detail and approach.  I paid for TOAW:COW when it came out which added WWII scenarios and others, as well as some enhancements though the interface was much the same.  I then paid for TOAW at Matrix partly for Vista stability, partly because of the extra scenarios, partly for the few gameplay enhancements - and matrix have since updated.  It all looks much like the first one I bought though.

Likewise Harpoon.  I had the original for the Amiga (which didn't work well at all), and Harpoon 3.6 before it became Matrix.  I then bought Harpoon CE from Matrix and think it's fantastic but haven't wanted ANW before on balance because it didn't seem to add that much to 3.6 .  Now I can get the combined package for a discount and I'm happy to do so - again for the extra scenarios, updates (I think the boarding option has great potential) and so on.

I go running in my spare time to keep fit.  Spent maybe 150 USD (about £80) on a new pair of trainers this year.  They look the same as the last ones but my hobby just requires a bit of investment from time to time to keep it going.

I guess no-one is forcing anyone to buy Ultimate Edition - if you're happy with what you've got and it serves you well stick with it (as I did with Harpoon 3.6).  I've now taken advantage of an option to get something more than I had at what I think is a reasonable price.

Can't see much wrong with that either way.

bw
chris

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 41
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 7:07:55 PM   
Spechtmeise


Posts: 82
Joined: 7/1/2005
Status: offline 		I have to support Matrix here.
I work in a company that develops and sells diagnostic software for hospitals. Our customers pay between 300 and 2000 euros PER MONTH to have their software supported and updated. That is perfectly normal business procedure.
Matrix updates and supports older GAMES that we play FOR FUN, almost always for free. Surely nobody will dispute Matrix's right to repackage older games, give them an UGRADE, and sell them to a highly specialised group of wargamers that pursue this hobby voluntarily?
The notion that older software can be supported and updated for ever without ever charging anything at all is simply preposterous. Some people really need to make a reality check.

_____________________________

Just Because I'm Paranoid Doesn't Mean They're Not Out to Get Me!

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Post #: 42
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 7:43:46 PM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline 		Other than than the running shoes, by experience has mimiced chrisol above, both with respect to TOAW and HARPOON. I've just finished the HARPOON Ultimate install on my desktop (Win 7) and fired up HUCE and opened the manual. I started up the game and gave a quick look at the tutorial. I can already see that the manual has been updated as well.

I'm already satisfied with my purchase. Now I just need to see if I can also fit it onto my older laptop which has just 6gb left on the hard drive.

thanks!
Rick




< Message edited by Rick -- 11/5/2010 7:44:07 PM >

(in reply to Spechtmeise)
Post #: 43
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 7:59:46 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		I think the point is (to some people) that the current game(s) have bugs which should be fixed before repackaging and selling again...like I said, I'm going from what I read - not personal experience...although I have HCE, I've rarely played it. But "I've read" (in particular with ANW) that there are bugs which should be fixed before "moving on" with development. Supporting the hobby is fine and great...but customers deserve support as well...so if there are bugs in the current games, they should be fixed before reselling the game to those people that paid money for a working product again.

As I said, I'm NOT saying the game(s) are broken...but word on the street is that ANW at least is/was...and all I'm saying is, if they are, it's not decent to ask people to pay for updates to fix the game - although Paradox seem to have got away with it with HoI3 and Semper Fi

_____________________________

Alba gu' brath

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 44
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 8:05:16 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

I think it's not a real Matrix decision as they don't do this to all games.
This is the decision of the Harpoon developers (AGS) who have been doing this sort of thing since the beginning.




Sounds about right.

Someone tell them to get a new H4 started, and completed this time. That might drudge up some income.

_____________________________


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Post #: 45
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 9:14:36 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline 		Well Erik, I've stated how I feel. You've done the same. I'm not going to continue beating a dead horse. We don't agree on this and that's that.

Can you say when the HCE patch will be available for non-Ultimate owners?

< Message edited by rich12545 -- 11/5/2010 9:16:42 PM >

(in reply to NefariousKoel)
Post #: 46
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 9:36:45 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hi Rich,

Fair enough. We're hoping to have the free updates available in a couple of weeks.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to rich12545)
Post #: 47
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/5/2010 10:26:45 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		I bought it a again and I think its worth it. I would have to agree with most of what you said here. Personally I am happy they put the work into it that they did.
quote:

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity

I disagree and think that it is both reasonably priced and not an unreasonable decision by Matrix, nor unprecedented. It already happened when Harpoon 3.63 was reinvented as Harpoon Advanced Naval Warfare and was reasonable then, to cover the costs of further development, as it is now. Considering the market for Harpoon, Matrix will probably be very lucky to sell a few thousand copies of the game. That is basically only going to cover the costs of having a couple of staff to update and maintain the game, for a couple of years at most. I'm happy to pay, as I did when I updated from 3.63 to ANW, in order to see the game continued to be improved and maintained, instead of development and updates coming to an end, which happens to almost every other game. I have played Harpoon for probably more than 15 years now, since way back when it was available for the Amiga and it would have to be one of the lost running series of games around, so it is great to see it continue.

Also disagree about need for a graphics improvement, 3D would be next to useless in Harpoon and the interface as it is now is sufficient and extremely functional in communicating the information needed to play the game. Admittedly Red Pill looks better, but essentially it is only the map that has been dramatically improved, on top of a slightly more polished interface, but is still essentially 2D and not much different from what Harpoon offers.



_____________________________

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(in reply to noguaranteeofsanity)
Post #: 48
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 1:41:37 AM   
noguaranteeofsanity


Posts: 257
Joined: 11/24/2009
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I think the point is (to some people) that the current game(s) have bugs which should be fixed before repackaging and selling again...like I said, I'm going from what I read - not personal experience...although I have HCE, I've rarely played it. But "I've read" (in particular with ANW) that there are bugs which should be fixed before "moving on" with development. Supporting the hobby is fine and great...but customers deserve support as well...so if there are bugs in the current games, they should be fixed before reselling the game to those people that paid money for a working product again.

As I said, I'm NOT saying the game(s) are broken...but word on the street is that ANW at least is/was...and all I'm saying is, if they are, it's not decent to ask people to pay for updates to fix the game - although Paradox seem to have got away with it with HoI3 and Semper Fi


They haven't just repackaged the games and sold them as is, they have included an update with many bug fixes and 3.10 is an update for ANW, which will also be available for those who already own ANW. Its the future development that will only be available for those who purchase the ultimate edition. So Matrix are in fact, doing exactly what you are asking or expect.

As to people paying for support through upgrades, it happens all the time, no software is maintained and updated indefinitely, the best example being windows, with Microsoft ending support for older versions such as Windows 98 already and Xp in the near future, which means you have to upgrade to a newer version, in order to get continuing support, updates and patches. While it is also quite common nowadays for software packages to be maintained through subscriptions or annual support fees, which are charged on top of the purchase price, including some games which charge monthly fees to play.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 49
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 3:29:59 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		The difference with the MS analogy is you typically don't pay for windows before MS even tells what the upgrade is.

(in reply to noguaranteeofsanity)
Post #: 50
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 4:49:04 AM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline 		Yeah, the MS analogy is really poor. Each windows version is a whole new product. It's not the same product with a patch. Windows XP owners, and this is still the most widely used OS, don't have to pay another $35 to get whatever XP patches might come out in the future.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 51
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 5:22:19 AM   
ruixilyy


Posts: 117
Joined: 1/26/2008
From: Brighton, UK
Status: offline 		I guess $35 is not so expensive for get the Ultimate Edition. What I concerns is when will the 3.11 update and the HCE 2010 (or 2011?) update to be released? Will we have to wait another one or two years to get the Ultimate Edition updated (like 3.94 to 3.10, more than one year, and HCE 2008 to 2009, more than one year)?

(in reply to rich12545)
Post #: 52
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 5:31:52 AM   
noguaranteeofsanity


Posts: 257
Joined: 11/24/2009
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Yeah, the MS analogy is really poor. Each windows version is a whole new product. It's not the same product with a patch. Windows XP owners, and this is still the most widely used OS, don't have to pay another $35 to get whatever XP patches might come out in the future.

You will have to pay for updates after 2014, when MS ends support for XP, which means no more patches or fixes, unless you upgrade to a newer version, which was the point I was trying to make.

(in reply to rich12545)
Post #: 53
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 5:32:03 AM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline
quote:


Will we have to wait another one or two years to get the Ultimate Edition updated (like 3.94 to 3.10, more than one year, and HCE 2008 to 2009, more than one year)?

hehe, for HC it largely depends upon how much sweat equity you put into it



< Message edited by TonyE -- 11/6/2010 5:33:11 AM >

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to ruixilyy)
Post #: 54
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 7:49:37 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratocruiser
The notion that older software can be supported and updated for ever without ever charging anything at all is simply preposterous. Some people really need to make a reality check.


Tell that to HPS Simulations...we get free expansion packs, and the even Smolensk '41(came out in 1999!) was updated to modern Panzer Campaigns status. I never paid anything extra.

_____________________________


Art by rogueusmc.

(in reply to Spechtmeise)
Post #: 55
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 9:35:14 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity
They haven't just repackaged the games and sold them as is, they have included an update with many bug fixes and 3.10 is an update for ANW, which will also be available for those who already own ANW. Its the future development that will only be available for those who purchase the ultimate edition. So Matrix are in fact, doing exactly what you are asking or expect.

I'm not entirely convinced they are doing exactly what I am suggesting. You've said "many"...I think - and I apologise for anyone who doesn't agree with me - that a company has an obligation to provide bug free software before providing an updated game and re-charging for it.

In other words, if Matrix (and any other company) have a bug free program after years of development, and they put more development in with more features and then re-charge for it - I'm dandy. If, on the other hand, Matrix (and any other company) have sold their software and it has bugs in it, and they fix those bugs - they should not be charging for that update. I couldn't care less if they've "disguised it" with additional content...that's just to ease the pain of re-paying. That's a smoke screen to tell the user "you can have your fixes for the bugs in the game - but because we've included additional content, you'll have to pay". I'm saying they have an obligation to fix the bugs free of charge - then they can coninue development and expand the product and charge for it...but the software should be bug free before moving onto another paid version.

quote:

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity
As to people paying for support through upgrades, it happens all the time, no software is maintained and updated indefinitely, the best example being windows, with Microsoft ending support for older versions such as Windows 98 already and Xp in the near future, which means you have to upgrade to a newer version, in order to get continuing support, updates and patches. While it is also quite common nowadays for software packages to be maintained through subscriptions or annual support fees, which are charged on top of the purchase price, including some games which charge monthly fees to play.

That's alright then. Being as we're used to being screwed over, another once shouldn't make any difference.

I'm not saying that Matrix should be providing Windows 7 32bit and 64bit support and updates. I'm not saying that Matrix should be providing support and free updates and free additional functinality for new technology changes. What I am saying is there is an obligation to remedy any remaining game bugs before repackaging the software and charging for it. That way the people who have the games have a working game...if they then want a new version because there's an additional feature they would like, then they pay. If they want the new version because they've upgraded to Windows 7 - fine. There's a MASSIVE difference between wanting continued support for a working product (that equals needing to pay now and again) and wanting a working product with working features as you would expect in a detailed naval simulation.

Battlefront done it with Combat Mission Afrika Corps and their other older titles I think for versions to run on newer systems - charging $5 for a patch to get those games to work. People didn't like that. If the game(s) were stable and funtional and bug free prior to that patch, and the patch was purely to update the game to work on a new OS - fine. Charge away. Paradox did it with Semper Fi - WRONG. Semper Fi was released with additional features, but with bug fixes to the base game - some thing that they should've fixed free of charge - they had an obligation to give people a working base game before charging again.

Look....if Matrix or anyone else on here who is playing the new version could say that any and all bugs that remained in ANW and HCE were squashed prior to releasing this version - then I have no axe to grind. But if there were existing bugs in the original two products and a charge is being made to fix those with a cover story of extra development and functionality being added, then that practice is unnacceptable. No company should be developing new functionality for a product until their bugs are fixed...unfortunately all that I learned about Software Engineering and the ethics of software development have NEVER appeared in the real world...just because it happens though, doesn't make it right OR acceptable.

I'm finished in here now so argue the whys and wherefors between yourselves. I just wanted to make a point that there's a distinction to be made (which seemed to have been lost since I finished my Software Engineering course) between supporting a working bug free product with paid for updates, and paying for updates that fix bugs.

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Post #: 56
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 10:09:19 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Food for thought, software seldom reaches a stage where it's bug free these days because of complexity and several system configuration... There will always be cases that will break it.

But if the game is totally unplayable then it cannot be forgiven. I believe ANW was like this before but I have no experience with it. Now I'm playing some ANW but I still don't know what to make of it (If it's stable or not).








< Message edited by jomni -- 11/6/2010 10:17:10 AM >

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Post #: 57
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 11:37:56 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

But if the game is totally unplayable then it cannot be forgiven. I believe ANW was like this before but I have no experience with it. Now I'm playing some ANW but I still don't know what to make of it (If it's stable or not).


Actually, on release it was both playable and stable as I recall. With Harpoon you really need to consider the nature of the hardcore player base which my forum lurking at the time and since suggested to be a mix of experts and people who think they are experts on the subject matter. Unfortunately, as a total naval amateur I was frequently unable to identity who was which. BUT, and more to the point, of the vast numbers of 'bugs' and 'errors' listed by assorted people (which may all have been perfectly legitimate as far as I know) the vast majority (probably 'all' after a couple of patches) passed completely under my amateur radar as I just didn't notice them during play. Nothing has changed much since, probably; I've spent far more time with HCE since it's release as I simply find it the more enjoyable of the two.


< Message edited by Hertston -- 11/6/2010 11:41:00 AM >

(in reply to jomni)
Post #: 58
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 11:51:46 AM   
Nebogipfel


Posts: 98
Joined: 3/16/2010
Status: offline 		To be fair. ANW isn´t totally unplayable. I spended many many hours this year playing ANW.

But for example the only way ANW worked on my system without getting ctds, was turning VCR off. (This is a replay feature.)
I love watching replays of my battles. This is a good example for many bugs. You can play the game, if you can live with work-around solutions.
(This is just an example, I don´t want to start a whole bug discussion)

On the other hand, you won´t recognize some bugs, if you aren´t a naval warfare pro.

The point is, that it is hard to beliefe, that things not changed in years will be solved with one patch (3.10).

But you are right Eric, it doesn´t make any sense to discuss this, before testing the 3.10 version.



(in reply to jomni)
Post #: 59
RE: Sorry, but this is wrong - 11/6/2010 12:00:37 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


Tell that to HPS Simulations...we get free expansion packs, and the even Smolensk '41(came out in 1999!) was updated to modern Panzer Campaigns status. I never paid anything extra.


I think you need you rethink here V22. HPS uses the same 1999 engine to make "new" games over and over again. With each release there are some tweaks to the engine (not major stuff, really) and this can be retrofitted to every HPS game using the same engine. It's not that hard or expensive for them. They get their money supporting the series with each new game released since "all" they have to do is to research an OOB/Map and then the ai. Hardly major programing/support, right?

It's a smart and cheap business model I wish SSG had picked up long ago. Now it might be too late.

This is not HPS bashing since I'm a huge fan of their Panzer/Modern campaigns and PBEM them on a regular basis.



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