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RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1

 
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RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/16/2011 10:47:38 PM   
Mynok


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Best lessons learned are the hard ones. I don't want them to change it. Done it myself.


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Post #: 61
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 12:23:09 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Best lessons learned are the hard ones. I don't want them to change it. Done it myself.


The only lessons to be learned here are, that it is a stupid, needlessly painful aspect of the interface that should be fixed, and that some people will defend stupidity, no matter how foolish it makes them look.

It serves absolutely no purpose to the moving player to not have a warning, given the consequences. As it is now, it's simply a ridiculous "gotcha".

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 62
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 12:30:16 AM   
Gandalf


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From: Jefferson City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

The only lessons to be learned here are, that it is a stupid, needlessly painful aspect of the interface that should be fixed, and that some people will defend stupidity, no matter how foolish it makes them look.

It serves absolutely no purpose to the moving player to not have a warning, given the consequences. As it is now, it's simply a ridiculous "gotcha".


+1

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Post #: 63
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 1:39:25 AM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Technically the lesson that should be learned is that its a very bad idea to leave a HQ unit (any side) unprotected and alone in a hex. You can see the reverse of this effect when you displace enemy HQ's during your turn due to them being left alone and it should really not come as any sort of surprise to you that your HQ are dispersing due to carelessness.

HQs should not be in the front lines anyway and if they are in front line hexes and you need to move the combat units that they are stacked with to other locations then you need to pay particular attention to detail and move the HQ first before moving the combat unit. Hence the lesson that should be learned.

It really has nothing to do with the UI and there is really nothing that needs to be fixed. Adding in a warning dialog box would just be a major annoyance and slow down which is not needed or wanted, once you learn the basic lesson of not moving your HQs first if they are stacked with other combat units and are in front line locations.



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Post #: 64
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 3:02:56 AM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
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Status: offline 		People are actually arguing against the game telling you "Wait, stop, hold up ... this move will cause your HQ to displace! Confirm you want to do this" ?

I mean, never mind the fact that no one would ever actually want to do this, but if you play "correctly", the whole "just disrupts flow of the game" argument wouldn't hold water because you'd never run into the dialog anyway!

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Post #: 65
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 3:27:15 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

It really has nothing to do with the UI and there is really nothing that needs to be fixed.


Actually, it has *everything* to do with the UI. There is a lot to love about this game, but to make such a claim is just silly. Despite all the good parts of the game, there are indeed, many aspects of the UI that are simply put, pants-on-head retarded. This is one of them.

This is akin to having a prompt before overwriting a save file, or formatting your C: drive, or having a safety belt light come on in your car's dashboard. The game will automatically displace your HQ unless you go through contortions to prevent it. I want to focus on fighting my PBEM opponent, not on fighting the interface. In other words, playing "Simon says" with the interface bouncing my HQ back, because I didn't move in the "proper" order is NOT what I want to do in a game.

Your idea of fun may vary.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 66
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 10:12:03 AM   
Zovs


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Status: offline 		I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this rule.

As a last resort I suggest you read 7.1.3 and 15.10 again to fully understand the rules of the game and the main reason why there is no reason for a dialog box prompt for this rule violation.

quote:


7.1.3. ZERO CV UNITS

To reflect their inability to participate in ground combat, some ground units will have a combat value (CV) of zero and will perform an automatic displacement move (15.10) if an enemy combat unit moves adjacent unless they are stacked with a friendly combat unit with a CV of at least one.

A unit with a CV of zero will not participate in combat, but may take losses due to being forced to retreat or displace.

Headquarter units will always have a combat value (CV) of zero. Units in a routed or depleted (Actual TOE of ten percent or less) state will also have a CV of zero.


This is not an UI issue, this is an issue for the commander that does not understand or follow this rule, just because you don't like it does not mean it's broken or not meant to be part of the game.

It has nothing to do with fun either, it's just part of the game and if you make a mistake your virtual troops and HQs will pay for it.


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Post #: 67
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 7:45:39 PM   
JS

 

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Status: offline 		I think the key here is "To reflect their inability to participate in ground combat, some ground units will have a combat value (CV) of zero and will perform an automatic displacement move (15.10) if an enemy combat unit MOVES ADJACENT".

I think the displacement is supposed to be simulating an enemy moving in on your HQ, displacing it, as it is in danger of being overrun. Just because you happen to move your combat unit before the HQ in the game, this doesn't mean the enemy is suddenly moving in, threatening to overrun the HQ. In reality, both the HQ and the combat unit's moves would be simultaneous. They are not happening at the same time in the game, because of the turn based system. I would suggest that your HQ should only get displaced if it is left alone close to an enemy unit at the end of your turn. That way, no pop up notification would be needed.


< Message edited by JS -- 1/17/2011 7:47:45 PM >

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Post #: 68
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 8:36:42 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

This is not an UI issue, this is an issue for the commander that does not understand or follow this rule, just because you don't like it does not mean it's broken or not meant to be part of the game.


Bingo. Debate ended. The only fools here are the ones who can't figure out how to keep their HQs from getting displaced.


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Post #: 69
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 9:05:11 PM   
pat.casey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

This is not an UI issue, this is an issue for the commander that does not understand or follow this rule, just because you don't like it does not mean it's broken or not meant to be part of the game.


Bingo. Debate ended. The only fools here are the ones who can't figure out how to keep their HQs from getting displaced.



As a rule of thumb in product design, if a UI implementation is confusing to a large number of people, regardless of whether or not it confuses its developer, it is a bad implementation.

As a rule of thumb in normal social interactions, referring to those who disagree with you as "fools" is neither polite nor likely to convince people of the superior quality of your position.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 70
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 9:09:19 PM   
Mynok


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He did it first.

And no, I don't buy into those UI design rules. People are idiots. That includes me. Things that teach us to be more careful and counteract our innate idiocy by thinking and planning are good things.


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Post #: 71
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 9:29:19 PM   
cookie monster


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Post #: 72
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/17/2011 11:23:36 PM   
Mynok


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I hope you aren't planning to argue against the "people are idiots" premise. I have loads of evidence.


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Post #: 73
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/18/2011 12:05:43 AM   
pat.casey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I hope you aren't planning to argue against the "people are idiots" premise. I have loads of evidence.



I'm not taking a position for or against your premise.

I'm offering an alternate premise:

When involved in a debate, calling your opponents idiots reduces, rather than improves, your chances of changing their mind and bringing them around to agree with you.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 74
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/18/2011 12:17:32 AM   
Duality

 

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Status: offline 		The only thing that bothers me about the HQ displacement is when it gets displaced by a unit which is surrendering. Twice now I have ran into this situation while clearing pockets. I'll attack an isolated unit, it will move one hex just before it surrenders and dissappears. The hex it moves to just happens to be right next to my HQ. Yes, my HQ was probably too close to the front lines and yes, I should not have left them alone but they got displaced by a bunch of Russians running toward them with white flags! Perhaps they did not want the burden of POWs?

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 75
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/18/2011 2:13:56 AM   
gradenko2k

 

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Status: offline 		The ruling still works in cases of your units moving towards the enemy's HQs.

I suppose I get the point where having this happen to you teaches you a lesson about moving your units in the correct order, but it barely accomplishes even that precisely because we had to start an external thread just to explain what's happening in the game in the first place. I mean, wouldn't the player learn just as much if the game told them "WARNING! YOU ARE ABOUT TO VIOLATE RULE 7.3.1 REGARDING 0 CV UNITS!"

The point isn't that we want the rule abolished
The point isn't that we want to be exempted from the rule

The point is that if the game would just tell us what we're doing, we'd be that much more aware of the consequences of our actions, especially when that action is something we'd never want to perform if we were aware of it in the first place

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Post #: 76
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/18/2011 2:46:43 AM   
Mynok


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Are you telling me that the first time this happened to you it did not cause you to head to the rule book and try to figure out what happened? Seriously?

Point 1: Why are your freaking HQs in the front line? I can count on two fingers the instances in my games where I found it necessary to move an HQ up to the front line in order to keep units in range.

Point 2: See Point 1.



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Post #: 77
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/18/2011 9:19:09 AM   
RayWolfe

 

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Status: offline 		What everyone seems to overlook is that the interface PREVENTS you from moving a HQ to be adjacent to the enemy unless there is a friendly there as well. If that's acceptable, why is it unacceptable to move the friendly to expose a HQ without a warning?
I think JS has got the perfect answer.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 78
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/18/2011 10:00:38 AM   
karonagames


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Status: offline 		All I can say is that the suggestion of a "trap" to flag up a possible displacement of HQs was the first to be posted in the development forums when the game launched 6 weeks ago. There has been no response whatsoever from the development team, so I don't know whether it is a case of "No news is Good news" or not.

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Post #: 79
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/18/2011 12:30:09 PM   
gradenko2k

 

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quote:

Are you telling me that the first time this happened to you it did not cause you to head to the rule book and try to figure out what happened? Seriously?

You're really not utilizing the computer medium all that well if you're still throwing the player back into the manual every time something happens.

quote:

Point 1: Why are your freaking HQs in the front line? I can count on two fingers the instances in my games where I found it necessary to move an HQ up to the front line in order to keep units in range.

Playing as the Soviets in 1941. Germans pushed up right against a hex where I had an infantry division and an HQ.

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Post #: 80
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/18/2011 5:37:30 PM   
Mynok


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Ahhhh...Soviets.....yes, that would be a different animal. I haven't tried them yet, so maybe I'll withhold final judgment until I do. As Axis, I still don't have any issue with how the game works right now.



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Post #: 81
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/19/2011 4:57:50 AM   
[Red_Guard]

 

Posts: 6
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Status: offline 		Kameraden & Tovarich,
All new to WitE (less than 6 hrs) so please be kind!

OK, testing myself on the tutorial scenario playing Soviet and already needs a little clarification. Here goes the ego-thing first: I've routed some German units off Velikie Luki which was indicated as a level 2 Fort and placed 2 Rifle Divisions + 1 Tank Brigade on the city's hex.
Before attacking, the little flag was half blue / half red and following my wicked attack the Germans have pulled out. My troops have settled in for 2 turns now.
Ego-thing off

Why is the flag still blue & red? I mean that was a major victory to me... Closest German units are one empty hex away just West of the city.
In this particular tutorial, what are the criteria for securing a city and are there any visual cues to a city's status?
I noticed the dialog box opening when clicking on the city's hex but I only did so once my units were in so not sure if info is any different from earlier...

I did a quick search on the manual with "city", "conquest", "securing" but no joy so far.

thx in advance
Red


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Post #: 82
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/19/2011 8:49:40 AM   
RayWolfe

 

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Status: offline 		It means it's a potential victory location for both sides. Look on the victory points screen.

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Post #: 83
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/19/2011 3:44:00 PM   
[Red_Guard]

 

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Status: offline 		Ah, thx for clarifying.
I actually thought the flag might update indicating current status.

Red

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Post #: 84
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 1/22/2011 9:55:15 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
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From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		If I may weigh in on this debate.

One of the things that's contributing to this problem for ME, personally, is that when I move a solo unit from "somewhere" (doesn't matter where) to a hex where I already have friendly units, my selected solo unit automatically becomes a single stack with the units already there.  So sometimes I have inadvertently moved an HQ into a bad spot because I'm too new to remember that the interface always adds-to whatever you already have selected.

I don't like that.
Don't do that!

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Post #: 85
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 2/5/2011 10:54:45 AM   
cpt flam


Posts: 2352
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From: caen - France
Status: offline 		two things that i have observed
1 moving an HQ with another unit (even in contact with ennemi) the HQ won't relocate
2 when your move concern a HQ generaly you can undo the move

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Post #: 86
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 2/6/2011 2:02:28 AM   
madgamer2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

I appreciate the quick response guys. I will read up when I get home. It felt like I had looked through the manual 3-4 times trying to find a reference to rail repair, but I obviously missed it. Other than my lack of rail lines so far  , the look and feel of the game is great.


After I bought and installed this game I saw that a totally different method for learning it. Now WitE is about 6 months+ away from being a great game but with hard work from the developers,Gary, the testers and members of the forum it will happen as it did with other games.
I am keeping it patched, reading the forum each day and most of all print out the PDF E manual and read it slowly like a great novel. Being old and having a small learning problem learning from reading I take my time. When I feel like I have absorbed enough to play I will play the simple tutorial several times then the shorter games then I figure that about 6 months I will be ready.
Because of my age (70) and my difficulty in absorbing information from reading just plunging in to a game like this would not be a good thing good luck and welcome to the forum.

Madgamer2

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Post #: 87
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 2/17/2011 4:17:28 PM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		Even though Im experienced I have just made this noob mistake again.

BUT........ I clicked on undo...So I could remove in the correct order.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

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Post #: 88
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 2/17/2011 4:30:26 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

Even though Im experienced I have just made this noob mistake again.

BUT........ I clicked on undo...So I could remove in the correct order.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Only if your moved units didn't change the recon level of some enemy units. Then, you're screwed over by the interface...

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Post #: 89
RE: Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1 - 3/4/2011 5:18:19 PM   
Marc


Posts: 280
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From: Braunschweig, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

The only lessons to be learned here are, that it is a stupid, needlessly painful aspect of the interface that should be fixed.

It serves absolutely no purpose to the moving player to not have a warning, given the consequences. As it is now, it's simply a ridiculous "gotcha".


+ 1

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Post #: 90
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