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when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 9:59:17 PM   
Wikingus


Posts: 167
Joined: 9/26/2010
Status: offline 		... I know I know, it's unfair. WiTE is a completely new beast, but I am a long-time TOAW player and WiTE looks a lot like FiTE, with some extra options thrown on top, and with much better graphics.

I'm kind of not sure whether to get the game or not. Can any fellow TOAW player convince me it's worth buying?

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:11:33 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		It doesn't have phased turns.

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:14:55 PM   
Champagne


Posts: 356
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline 		The Fire in the East scenarios in TOAW had more unit counters than I cared to spend time with. From what I can see with WitE, this game will be more manageable, and more realistic because the design is focused on this campaign. That's my guess, anyway.

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:15:01 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Smokes it.

Note that virtually every tester in our group has both games. Every single one of us prefers WITE.



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Post #: 4
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:15:15 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		I used to play TOAW a lot, after burn out I just let sit and went on to other things. When I started play-testing this last year I was totally blown away. IMHO WITE totally blows away TOAW, hands down.

Yes, I am biased since I have been bashing it for a year but the interface is elegant and the breadth and scope are like nothing else.

The game play in TOAW is pretty much always the same no matter what year or era. WITE is not, you don't know how many times I have done June 22 1941 either in a campaign game or one of the smaller scenarios and the game play is not the same, on top of that there are some subtle nuances in how to play the Axis or the Soviets based on year as well, all pretty intuitive if you have read operational combat books of the era.

Just one man's opinion.


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Post #: 5
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:16:46 PM   
Dr. Foo


Posts: 666
Joined: 8/31/2004
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		They are working on a game play You tube vid should be out tomorrow. I love WitE I bought it yesterday have not stopped playing. IMO, FiTE is hindered by TOAW's limitations. It's not the fault of TOAW it's just cannot simulate everything and it forced players to incorporate house rules to overcome pitfalls in the game.

WiTE does one thing an done thing only it's war in the East! Everything is there down to the tiniest detail. The thought and attention to detail is amazing. It's like they made the Eastern Front war game people have been dreaming of for 40 years (perhaps more).

I cannot oversell this game, it's worth every penny. I am not saying this is the death of FiTE there will always be those who are dedicated to playing and perfecting that fine game. I played many hours of PBEM games but now there is a full programed and capable AI no more waiting days, sometimes weeks for a turn. Sure once I learn the game I will turn to PBEM but it's nice to be able to test things against a working AI.  

Just my two cents.  

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:16:50 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		As I'm doing my best to give honest answers, I might as well add the disclaimer that I just can't play TOAW anymore. I tried, but the phased turn system is just too cumbersome. The units that can keep returning in most scenarios are also extremely annoying. Kill an air group and presto! it's back a few days later.

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Post #: 7
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:17:24 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Yes, WiTE ruined TOAW for me as well. I simply can no longer play the game now.



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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:18:41 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		Well, TOAW ruined TOAW for me, I had stopped playing long before I started testing. I had given the game a second chance too, but it didn't work out.

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Post #: 9
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:19:40 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I got many years of enjoyment out of TOAW, myself. But there's no going back to it.



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Post #: 10
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:51:49 PM   
LuckyJim1010

 

Posts: 260
Joined: 7/6/2010
Status: offline 		Hear Hear - played many hours of TOAW, mainly for the Modern scenarios but it all become a little samey.

Without wishing to digress but I have to ask. Anyone remember the Jeeps vs Tigers debate/arguement

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Post #: 11
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:53:19 PM   
pharmy

 

Posts: 271
Joined: 4/3/2010
From: Bangkok/Budapest
Status: offline 		Having played Toaw and now tried this, but I have to say that I will return soon to Hoi3 Semper Fi (yeah its not a pure hex game). WIPT AE was great because it had a flexible economic model, and the naval/air combat in it is fantastic and I never felt like I was playing a hex game except in China (first hex game I played was I think called Rommel something in the 80s, but eventually their clunky handling got me off the genre). TOE and realism are great, but Hoi3 handles land combat fantastically well now, and it has the one great thing that that these games lack, - a relatively advanced AI delegation, and the OOB system (especially if you use one of the OOB editors) and this allows you to flexibly control hundreds of units (objective, general axis of attack, aggression level can all be defined).

Of course the naval aspect is horrible and it sucks playing Japan. Air units also not to useful in it, and the percentage strength instant of a proper ToA make it a non-proper/non-accurate hex based game). Combining these three games would make a great game with a proper balance between micromanagement and strategic play. But at a local level, Barbarossa, especially if you start in 41, and use a mod that gives a great balance is a fantastic with proper breakouts, salients, counter attacks. Not having turns, playing real time in multiplayer, makes for a fantastic fluid dynamic Barbarossa.

On a global level, the reality mod or some of the other ones are starting to get the global balance right, but try playing Germany 44 in Normandy, 42-43 in Russia (delegate the other fronts).


< Message edited by icepharmy -- 12/9/2010 10:55:27 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:53:22 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wikingus

... I know I know, it's unfair. WiTE is a completely new beast, but I am a long-time TOAW player and WiTE looks a lot like FiTE, with some extra options thrown on top, and with much better graphics.

I'm kind of not sure whether to get the game or not. Can any fellow TOAW player convince me it's worth buying?


El Hefe had alot to do with the TOAW FitE Scenario - he can give you the details.

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Post #: 13
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:53:54 PM   
von altair


Posts: 316
Joined: 4/27/2004
Status: offline 		I've played TOAW a lot and enjoyed it. War in the East is musthave game for everyone who likes the genre. This game is like
mother of all previous strategy games, including TOAW. Well worth every "expensive" penny. You will play this game for years.
Hearts of Iron III and this game will stay in my computer very long time.

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Post #: 14
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 10:57:44 PM   
jjax


Posts: 289
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		I liked TOAW tonnes as well. I would have never bought this game if it wasn't for my enjoyment of TOAW.

BTW, I actually like the phased turns and could never understand why so many people did not like them. For better or worst, It added an extra dimension of strategy that took some time to understand.





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Post #: 15
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 11:13:03 PM   
JMass


Posts: 2364
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Italy
Status: offline 		TOAW and WitE are not in direct competition but are complementary, imo. TOAW is an operational game, WitE is more strategical, I think that Kharkov 42 or 43, Uranus or Korsun play better with TOAW. Barbarossa, Fall Blau, The Destruction of AGC - or the whole campaign - play better with WitE: the first, the second or both it is a matter of tastes.

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 11:13:28 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I disliked the phases because they were tedious. I'm not particularly a micromanager, but even for me it was incredibly irritating having to figure out a way to maximize my pulse count. This chewed up an incredible amount of time and energy for little in return in realism. I regarded it as a not very good compromise between turn based and real time based games and managed to combine the worst of both worlds.

Mileage will vary, but this was clearly a wildly unpopular feature of the game. The design intent was laudable, the execution deplorable.


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Post #: 17
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 11:15:29 PM   
JMass


Posts: 2364
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax
BTW, I actually like the phased turns and could never understand why so many people did not like them. For better or worst, It added an extra dimension of strategy that took some time to understand.


I like very much the phased turns and I subscribe what you wrote.

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Post #: 18
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 11:30:29 PM   
Dr. Foo


Posts: 666
Joined: 8/31/2004
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

I actually like the phased turns and could never understand why so many people did not like them. For better or worst, It added an extra dimension of strategy that took some time to understand.



I liked them as well, at first I was clueless and carelessly attacking and burning turns then I learned how get more combat rounds per turn and once you get it, it's easy to do but still difficult to master.

Having multiple combat rounds in FiTE is critical to achieving any sort of Axis success.

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 11:40:30 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		WitE vs FitE = depth vs breadth. Less counters but more complexity.

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/9/2010 11:53:45 PM   
Templer_12


Posts: 1700
Joined: 1/5/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline 		All in all, WitE is the specialized game.
A valuable tool for specialists - no allround, use for all tool.

It is a scalpel for precise cuts and not a Swiss army knife!

< Message edited by Templer -- 12/9/2010 11:54:42 PM >

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/10/2010 2:14:35 AM   
jjax


Posts: 289
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer
It is a scalpel for precise cuts and not a Swiss army knife!


I think thats a good analogy, but thats the case for most scenarios in TOAW. It's just the nature of the beast that is TOAW.

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/10/2010 2:55:04 AM   
Zaratoughda


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline 		If you get WitE, I believe you will find that you never play TOAW FitE (and the other TOAW east front scenarios at this scale) again.

There is simply no comparison.

Zaratoughda

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/10/2010 3:38:18 AM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

If you get WitE, I believe you will find that you never play TOAW FitE (and the other TOAW east front scenarios at this scale) again.

There is simply no comparison.

Zaratoughda


Exactly. There is no comparing the two. One is specifically designed for one theater and was released 7 December 2010. The other was designed to be an all purpose design tool and was released in 1998 and re released by Matrix in 2006 as TOAW III. Apples and oranges.

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/10/2010 3:43:02 AM   
Zemke


Posts: 642
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		TOAW was too general, too same same. I found one of the best scenarios of TOAW to play was the Korean War scenario, the scale and scope seemed to fit the engine well, beyond that I found TOAW did not do large scale well, or very small scale well. TOAW was designed to be flexible and general in nature to have any chance of doing what it was designed to do. I like the comparison to tools Templer used. WitE is a one of a kind tool for one job, eastern front land combat. TOAW is, as Templer said, the Swiss Army knife of war games, does a lot of different things, none great, but good enough to get it done. When I reach into my war gaming tool box I want the best tool I got for the job.

< Message edited by Zemke_4 -- 12/10/2010 3:47:37 AM >

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RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/10/2010 3:47:42 AM   
solops

 

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Smokes it.
Note that virtually every tester in our group has both games. Every single one of us prefers WITE.


Forget the designer notes and AARs, this is the strongest endorsement I have seen or could imagine.

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Post #: 26
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/10/2010 5:53:51 AM   
lparkh


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline 		There's a lot of depth to these points. But since we know WITE is going to be done in west and africa it is more general then some arguments suggest. Maybe it is actually a grand operational WWII battle simulator of a fixed scale? Not just an east front engine.

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Post #: 27
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/10/2010 9:06:43 AM   
pionier

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline 		Ouh, is Win7 better than WinVista ?

I think it is a bit too early to do more than just a few guesses. I don't know much about the combat system, how depth and how predictable it is! Next year when it is cheaper I will buy this game for christmas' special.

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Post #: 28
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/10/2010 10:35:12 AM   
SGHunt


Posts: 873
Joined: 1/20/2010
From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		That takes some self-control!

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Post #: 29
RE: when compared with TOAW's FiTE... - 12/10/2010 12:43:56 PM   
amatteucci

 

Posts: 389
Joined: 5/14/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JMass


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax
BTW, I actually like the phased turns and could never understand why so many people did not like them. For better or worst, It added an extra dimension of strategy that took some time to understand.


I like very much the phased turns and I subscribe what you wrote.

Seconded.

Moreover, even after a cursory look, WitE looks (and, indeed, is!) very different from TOAW in two respects: 1) it's a stragetic game and not an operational game forced to function as a strategic one, 2) it's engine was custom-tailored to the Eastern Front (I know that Western Front and North Africa are in the pipeline but I'm sure that the game engine will be further modified to take into account the peculiarities of those fronts).

I think that WitE is a must buy for every wargamer that is an Eastern Front aficionado.

(in reply to JMass)
Post #: 30
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