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For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 2:39:18 PM

Davekhps

Posts: 203
Joined: 12/10/2010
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... ignore your fears and buy it!

The learning curve isn't anywhere as steep as all the (incredibly helpful) posts here would lead people to believe. Yes, the manual is a monster, but that's because it's thorough, and there are a lot of quirks to the system. But the basics of the system are actually quite simple, daresay intuitive. It's probably not your best first wargame, but it doesn't require a grognard Ph.D. to play.

When I buy games like this, I do so because I want to jump right into a giant campaign and conquer the world. I accepted that you can't do this with WITE, you're best served playing a few tutorial and small campaign scenarios. The pleasure with WITE is that given the depth of the game, even those small scenarios are fun and challenging.

Me, I played the tutorial once, then Road to Minsk three times, then Road to Leningrad three times. RtM takes less than an evening to complete, and RtL is a good solid night of fun (3-4 hours... helps that the GF is outta town

). I've won some minor victories, but the major victories have eluded me (how the HECK anyone manages to take Leningrad by turn 7 or 9-- as seen in some AARs-- is beyond me... you have to REALLY race, and get lucky, and if you don't, be prepared for an impossible siege).

What's fascinating about the small scenarios is that I actually care about them, i.e. I want to win them (as Axis)-- but that's dang hard to do given the objectives and the little time to complete them. Not as brutally impossible as the ol' Panzer General games, but not a pushover like so many other games.

Now, I imagine that once I get my feet wet enough times I'll want to try my hand at the Soviets, which is a harder nut to crack: not just because of their strategic situation, but also because of the extra rules (production, factories, creating units, etc.) that the Soviets must deal with.

Like all players, there are always some things I'd like to see addressed in future patches; I think the air model needs help, managing leaders could be improved (a few too many clicks right now to find the best replacements, IMO), and the game appears to memory leak as the turns pile up (a restart solves it). But on the surface, nothing's broken-- for your hard-earned money, you are most definitely NOT getting patchware (like from some other beloved studios *cough*

).

So really-- don't fear the game. Even with a skimming of the manual, you'll be playing in minutes. In three days, tops, you'll be completely comfortable with the basics of the game, and finding yourself at the end of the night going, "One more turn to get Smolensk... I can be late to work, right? Just one more turn..."

< Message edited by Davekhps -- 12/14/2010 2:40:49 PM >

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 2:41:56 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
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I agree...it's an easy game to pick up and play. It'll probably be very hard to master, but you'll have a blast right from the off.

I haven't got bored pushing counters around yet!

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Alba gu' brath

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 2:58:28 PM

Barthheart

Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline

ARRRGGGHHHH! You guys and the new video are crushing my resolve not to buy this until after Christmas!

Must...... resist..... must..... hold out.......

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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 3:11:14 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

and what might be best, is what you learn in the first few turns, is worthless later on, and what you learn, later on, is going to be worthless even later on

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 3:17:17 PM

PyleDriver

Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline

And JD was the guy giving us so much greif about the cost pre release...lol...She is a gem...

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Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Barthheart)

Post #: 5

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 3:27:36 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

ARRRGGGHHHH! You guys and the new video are crushing my resolve not to buy this until after Christmas!

Must...... resist..... must..... hold out.......

Why wait - you could be in Moscow by Christmas!

And I wasn't giving grief about cost - I was posting that I hoped the game would be at a price point that would help me buy it. I knew/know full well that Matrix and 2By3 have to make money. I wasn't asking anyone to go without...I was hoping the price point was going to be sensibly set. For me it has been - for others not so.

What I was getting antze about was people jumping in saying no one had the right to bitch about the price (whilst they bitched about people asking for a sensible price point - in other words, the thread was hijacked) when there was no real bitching going on - alot of hoping for a sensible price.

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Alba gu' brath

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 3:32:55 PM

jhdeerslayer

Posts: 1194
Joined: 5/25/2002
From: Michigan
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Really is a gem.

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 3:33:22 PM

PyleDriver

Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline

I paided over 4000 hours of my time for it. So even at min wage, it cost me some 32,000 for the game. Hell I should have an open account at Matrix...

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Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 8

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 5:55:22 PM

Charbroiled

Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
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Thanks for making this thread. It is just what I was looking for. While cost was a great concern, I have decided to forgo sleep for a few months and have already downloaded WITE. Now, just to get the CD home to give it a try.

A couple of questions, though.

1. Is the AI better on one side or the other?

2. Is there someone thing I need to be careful about? I have read the "Where is my HQ" thread which was very helpful.

3. Is there any major bugs? Any that have work-arounds?

I'm very experienced with games of this nature, having occupied many-a-table with little cardboard counters before the invention of computers and have killed countless hours looking at a monitor afterwards. I've played WITP and WITP-AE extensively. I'm just looking for any suggestions/comments that you think would be helpful.

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Post #: 9

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 6:13:59 PM

AlesMrak

Posts: 21
Joined: 1/2/2010
Status: offline

Game is fantastic, it is worth the money.

I can answer the first question, i havent got to grand campaigns, i have currenlty played most of the smaller scenarions.

Ai is supperb i haven't seen better ai in any game. The soviets are tought nut to crack, ai forms defensive in depth, not a easy task to break them, also i have seen German ai rescueing own units when encircled, first by droping supply by air to the encircled formations and then by active counter offensive against the ring, and i as a soviet had a many failures when entraping the germans, they broken trough 90% entrament in my game. And currently the German ai is beating me in the Stalingrad campaign.

There are no major bugs in the game no CTDs.

br.
Dr.Jones

(in reply to Charbroiled)

Post #: 10

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 6:15:32 PM

gravyhair

Posts: 164
Joined: 3/15/2003
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Best PC wargame ever, period. Best wargame. Worth every penny. Grigsby went to another level with this one.

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 6:57:14 PM

karonagames

Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
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quote:

1. Is the AI better on one side or the other?

2. Is there someone thing I need to be careful about? I have read the "Where is my HQ" thread which was very helpful.

3. Is there any major bugs? Any that have work-arounds?

1. The general consensus is that the defensive AI is pretty good but the attacking AI struggles to achieve the large pockets created historically by both sides.

2. The interface UI is different to any other game, so any habits you have for selecting units etc. might take some time for you to adjust.

3. There were some font, mouse and display issues, for which a beta patch exists. I don't think a crash bug or game stopping bug has been reported.

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 8:14:29 PM

pensfanvw

Posts: 82
Joined: 1/3/2009
From: Owosso, MI.
Status: offline

My thoughts exactly. However having viewed the new video this morning, my will to resist until Christmas was shattered. Just bought the game this morning, got through 50% of the tutorial manual before I had to go to work. Really looking forward to getting into what appears to be one heck of a game (simulation?).

Al

(in reply to Barthheart)

Post #: 13

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/14/2010 11:53:17 PM

hgilmer3

Posts: 530
Joined: 12/28/2008
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Yes, this is a great wargame. There is no question about it. I have something that makes me not want to play anything else.

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/15/2010 2:08:35 AM

htuna

Posts: 591
Joined: 1/19/2009
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline

The one thing that 'scared me' pre-purchase was seeing all the units, and thinking, who the heck wants to sit there and click each one of them. When I play HPS Panzer Campaigns I prefer the medium/smaller size battles, that don't have 3 line deep stalemates that you have to 'click' away at forever...

But the reality is, in this game you can just do turns in multiple sittings. You could treat/think of your different areas of operations are little games in themselves. And it's all so enjoyable (not boring click fest)..

This game Rocks!

(in reply to hgilmer3)

Post #: 15

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/15/2010 2:17:39 AM

blastpop

Posts: 395
Joined: 11/27/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

I think it is a wonderful game. I have played two Minsk scenarios and one tutorial and fooled some with Road to Kiev. Now I just followed along with the operational tutorial in the war room section of this forum. It along with some rules reading in the sections I am "fuzzy about" has greatly improved my working knowledge of the game and it is all starting to "gel".

As a hint for other new players, I am keeping the manual open while I am playing. That way if I have a question I can quickly get the info I need and move on.

(in reply to htuna)

Post #: 16

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/15/2010 2:35:57 AM

henri51

Posts: 1151
Joined: 1/16/2009
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As one who has never gone more than a few moves in WITP-AE before my brain boggles, I can say that this game is not as hard to play, in case you are wondering about the complexity.The game is complex, but has a lot less micro-management. It is probably just as complicated under the hood, but a lot is transparent to the player. For example you can micro-manage your air attacks to your heart's content, but you can also press the "bomb airports" button then the AI button and the game will do a pretty good job of bombing the enemy airports.As long as you keep your Corps HQs close enough to your divisions (which is easier to day than to do), supply will pretty much take care of itself.Another example: you can manually attach subunits like mortars, AA, AT, etc to infantry divisions, but if you don't and your Corps HQs are close enough, the AI will distribute them automatically when necessary -most of the time.

The game is an instant classic, and even if you never play it, you could spend days just looking at the map and unit compositions down to individual squads and vehicles and their supply requirements and a myriad of other factors.And by the thrid or fourth reading of the 300-page manual, you should begin to understand how the game works.

The only thing missing is Sergeant Steiner (and a replay function...)!

Henri

(in reply to blastpop)

Post #: 17

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/15/2010 5:06:27 AM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
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WitE sets new standards on a number of fronts: bang-for-the-buck; playability vs. complexity; stability and historical accuracy.

It plays smoothly and easily out-of-the-box. The level of polish is astounding for a game of this depth. Unlike, HOI3, this baby was ready for release.

I am probably middle-of-the-pack at best when it comes to wargame skill level. And yet, in the course of an evening, I used the editor to create a 10-turn "meeting engagement" out of the Road to Minsk scenario to challenge myself as the Soviet player. This was a sloppy, not-for-prime-time custom scenario. And it's playing better than games I've paid $40 for. I'll be peeling back the onion on this game for months. And just think what the mods and patches will bring!

(in reply to henri51)

Post #: 18

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/15/2010 9:30:04 PM

Rhizy

Posts: 25
Joined: 1/8/2009
From: Brisbane, Australia
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I've tried to play WITP:AE a good few times, but it all just feels too daunting and overwhelming. The level of micromanagement is just a few steps beyond what I'm willing to deal with. I'm finding WitE absolutely perfect. It is incredibly intuitive, I was up and playing through the tutorial and Road to Minsk very quickly. As I played along I would pick up on things I wasn't quite getting and dip into the manual to figure it out. It all just comes together really well and before I knew it felt I was experiencing command of my Axis forces on the Russian Front. I know there is a lot for me still to learn and figure out but I don't have a sense that it is beyond me and I can see that the experience of getting there will be both challenging and fun. I sense this game is perfect for me and I'm really looking forward to playing the campaign and PBEM games. As I get a feel for the flow of the game I don't have a sense this will be beyond me at all. All in all a fantastic game that I am thoroughly enjoying. Now I just wish a version of WITP would be released with this level of micromanagement!

This design, for me at least, hits the sweet spot of complexity and micromanagement without becoming unduly onerous. I know there is a lot going on under the hood and I know I can micromanage a lot more if I want to (air; distribution of support roles and so on) but the design allows me to hand that over to the AI systems until I'm ready.

This is brilliant.

< Message edited by Rhizzy -- 12/15/2010 9:33:57 PM >

(in reply to Rosseau)

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/15/2010 9:49:52 PM

Xornox

Posts: 39
Joined: 8/9/2009
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I agree. I did not get inside WITP well ever. I felt always that I have not done everything I should. Some information was always missing or it was too difficult to check because of quite poor UI.

WITE is different. This game has excellent UI - perhaps the best ever in the war game. I thought earlier that I can not play massive campaign but I am now changing my opinion.

(in reply to Rhizy)

Post #: 20

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/15/2010 9:52:21 PM

Grim.Reaper

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So everyone, I keep reading it is the best wargame out there and everyone will play for 10 years :) Can someone speak to the fun factor? My biggest concern is micromanaging a 100 counters and waiting too long for the AI to process their turn. But if the game is truly fun and entertaining, well, I might just have to go for it.

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RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/15/2010 10:04:00 PM

Davekhps

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Joined: 12/10/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grim.Reaper

So everyone, I keep reading it is the best wargame out there and everyone will play for 10 years :) Can someone speak to the fun factor? My biggest concern is micromanaging a 100 counters and waiting too long for the AI to process their turn. But if the game is truly fun and entertaining, well, I might just have to go for it.

Oh, you'll micromanage plenty more than 100 counters

Actually, I'm kidding. It's one of those deals where you will pay extra attention only in situations that require extra attention, e.g. the first turn of the game, major assaults and encirclements, turns before and after the mud sets in, etc. But even then, there will be large swaths of the front that you can comfortably ignore, or at least, minimally tend to.

And it's genuinely fun tending: a few things are a bit clunky, some quirks take getting used to, but by and large it's a pleasure organizing your army, establishing your support units, etc.

I've also noticed that a lot of the "power functions" in the game are, to be frank, pretty optional, at least as the Axis against the AI. Air power can run itself, support units will float up and down pretty well without intervention, most leaders are good enough. If anything, at least in the smaller scenarios, I'm finding the Admin points to be *too* generous-- after my first turn tweaking to support units, I generally only need a handful for the rest of the game to change the chain of command when the long marches make it necessary.

Anyway, the short answer: it's not the tedious brand of micromanagement, it's the rewarding brand, the kind that feeds well into the "Just one more turn..." X-factor found in the best games.

(in reply to Grim.Reaper)

Post #: 22

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/15/2010 10:13:41 PM

comsolut

Posts: 484
Joined: 5/30/2004
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In one of my earlier posts I said the game brings a smile to my face everytime I play, and being 50 now, heaven help me, that gets rarer and rarer with each new game.

I have completed the tutorial, the 3 turn scenario Road to Minsk, and the 17 turn scenario Road to Leningrad. Some game used to be built just around that last scenario. And I still have 4 or 5 more scenarios to play. Currently I am playing the Road to Leningrad as the Russian (after playing as the German).

I admit, my first reaction was another Monster Game like WITP that was cool to look at but very impractical to play (FROM MY STANDPOINT - too much to learn, to much to micromanage). War in the East is very manageable, but I would STRONGLY urge you to do the Tutorial, then the 3 turn scenario Road to Minsk, then maybe the Road to Leningrad (the latter two as the German). The game is DEEP, but if you wade into the waters slowly, scenario by scenario, you will not be disappointed.

And, just my opinion, even if there was no Grand Campaign, the game would still be worth the money just for the scenarios. I can finish a scenario in two-three days, feel a sense of accomplishment, and actually see a VICTORY SCREEN for a change.

One thing I was skeptical about was the one week turns, but the combat and movement system does and OUTSTANDING job of capturing the manuver and series of battles that occur over that time period. Attacking units can push weaker units back then exploit the breakthrough all in the same turn. It has a very authentic feel to the actions.

The command structure is a bear to learn at first, then getting into the logistics can give one a headache, but surprisingly, once you figure it ALL OUT it plays seemlessly. I guess with a game this deep, learning the interface and where all the information is, and how to access it, we can expect some learning curve. But once learned - the game really rocks!! And even before that - IT IS JUST PLAIN FUN. But don't dive into the deep end without learning a few strokes.

Hope this helps.

(in reply to Grim.Reaper)

Post #: 23

RE: For those lurkers afraid of buying the game... - 12/16/2010 4:53:47 AM

Wild