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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports.

 
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RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 11:40:56 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline 		Will the A.I players use the default state.

Good news anyway.

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Post #: 31
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 11:44:36 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lordxorn


quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

This is a good point. It often seems counterintuitive that any old military ship that you're not at war with or have trade sanctions against can refuel at your colonies and bases. Maybe the odd ship here or there isn't so bad, but definitely refueling a whole fleet is undesirable.

So, instead you'd like two empires to have a Free Trade Agreement or Mutual Defense Pact before they allow refueling of military ships at each other's colonies and bases? And/Or possibly simply having a positive relationship with each other (i.e. both empires like each other)?

What do you think?


Free trade agreement should only allow civilian ships to purchase goods between spaceports
while the Mutual Defense Pact would allow military vessels.





+1 I agree totally with this.

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Post #: 32
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/19/2010 11:48:20 PM   
Haree78


Posts: 1269
Joined: 5/18/2010
Status: offline 		Sounds like a nice change.

My only concern....will we be able to see what other Empires have chosen for the above?

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Post #: 33
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 5:12:32 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Thanks for all the feedback above.

For the first ROTS update I'll be implementing the following changes in this area:
- add new setting in Empire Policy screen: "Refuel Other Empires Military Ships"
- this setting will determine when military ships of another empire are allowed to refuel at your colonies or bases
- the three available values for this setting will be: when not at war or have trade sanctions (same as currently), when have Free Trade Agreement, when have Mutual Defense Pact or Protectorate
- the default setting here will be "when have Free Trade Agreement"

This setting only applies to military ships - freighters, mining ships, passenger ships, exploration ships and construction ships will all be able to refuel at any colony or base of an empire you are not at war with or have trade sanctions against (as currently). It is important that the civilian economy is not hampered and that trade happens as easily as possible. For example, it would make little sense if a freighter could transport cargo to a spaceport, but not also refuel there.

Note that independent colonies will always refuel military ships of any empire - they are effectively neutral.




Thank you for the fast reaction!

Just for confirmation: this setting applies as global settings for all empires?


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Post #: 34
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 5:17:56 AM   
forsaken1111

 

Posts: 281
Joined: 3/30/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Thank you for the fast reaction!

Just for confirmation: this setting applies as global settings for all empires?

As he said, it is an empire policy option so it would apply to your own empire.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 35
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 5:56:17 AM   
Aures

 

Posts: 343
Joined: 9/13/2010
Status: offline 		forsaken111, what people are concerned about is whether and how AI empires will make use of this option. If the default is a free trade agreement is required for military ships to refuel, does that mean your own military ships will not able to refuel at any AI empire locations? If it is based on something like caution, then you will be able to refuel at say an Atuuk port without a free trade agreement (even though they give them away to basically anyone) while you would need a free trade agreement to refuel at a Zenox port (with whom it is much more difficult to get a free trade agreement). I'm sure something sensible can be worked out, but it is not obvious to me how the AI should make use of this option.

The other concern people have is about being able to tell what setting an AI empire is using. Will you have to select a ship and then check whether refueling at an AI port is an option? Fortunately, we already have the refueling point icon so it should be straightforward to see whether you can refuel at an AI port without attempting to give the order. Unfortunately, that makes it hard to distinguish between an empire that will not let your military ships refuel and one will but just happens to have no available refueling points. Maybe it should say in the diplomacy screen whether an empire will let you refuel at their ports? There are two ways that could be done, either it could just tell you whether you are currently allowed to refuel (without explicitly stating what setting the AI empire is using) or it could explicitly tell you their setting and what that means given your current diplomatic relationhip with them.

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Post #: 36
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 6:14:59 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Thank you for the fast reaction!

Just for confirmation: this setting applies as global settings for all empires?

As he said, it is an empire policy option so it would apply to your own empire.



Basically, because it sounds like you say, that was the reason for my question.

I hope it was not meant this way, because it would give the player a huge and unfair advantage over the
AI empires.
I could refuel my fleet at enemy stations and send them tumbling into economical crisis by clicking a button, while
the same does not apply to my empire. Same with AI empire vs. AI empire.

I would prefer that this setting applies to all empires in interaction with every other empire.

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Post #: 37
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 6:20:00 AM   
forsaken1111

 

Posts: 281
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline 		Ahh, it was unclear what you meant LoBaron. The setting is an empire policy, so it affects each empire individually I would imagine, including the AI.

Aures: Yes I know all that, thank you for your condescension. It seemed like he was asking if this was a global setting such as a game option which you set for all empires rather than something you change during a game.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 38
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 6:32:14 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		forsaken I am still not sure if we are talking about the same thing:

An empire policy can be changed during the game so this leads to some problems concerning this specific setting:

- do the AI empires have any other option than the default setting?
- if the answer is yes, can the AI empires also change this setting at will during the game?
- if yes, is this visible somewhere?
- if you change your policy setting during the game will this affect the settings for other empires (as it is currently intended the answer seems to be no)


At least as I see it this setting should be

- global (no possibility to change for each empire individually)
- not changeable during a game (I think such an option would favour the human player as he can guesstimate the
consequences far better than an AI could)

If the above isn´t the case this could unbalance the game IMHO.



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Post #: 39
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 6:37:22 AM   
forsaken1111

 

Posts: 281
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline 		Yes, I misunderstood your question as something else. I too would like to know exactly how this will be implemented.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 40
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 8:21:58 AM   
Setekh


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: Norfolk, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Thanks for all the feedback above.

For the first ROTS update I'll be implementing the following changes in this area:
- add new setting in Empire Policy screen: "Refuel Other Empires Military Ships"
- this setting will determine when military ships of another empire are allowed to refuel at your colonies or bases
- the three available values for this setting will be: when not at war or have trade sanctions (same as currently), when have Free Trade Agreement, when have Mutual Defense Pact or Protectorate
- the default setting here will be "when have Free Trade Agreement"

This setting only applies to military ships - freighters, mining ships, passenger ships, exploration ships and construction ships will all be able to refuel at any colony or base of an empire you are not at war with or have trade sanctions against (as currently). It is important that the civilian economy is not hampered and that trade happens as easily as possible. For example, it would make little sense if a freighter could transport cargo to a spaceport, but not also refuel there.

Note that independent colonies will always refuel military ships of any empire - they are effectively neutral.



Awesome change. Looking forward to the update now (after I buy the expansion tomorrow that is).

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Post #: 41
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 8:36:34 AM   
J HG T


Posts: 1093
Joined: 5/14/2010
From: Kiadia Prime
Status: offline 		Those changes look great. No more fuelling your armada at my bases mister Dhayuuts-from-other-side-of-the-galaxy! 

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Post #: 42
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 9:20:25 AM   
Aures

 

Posts: 343
Joined: 9/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111
Aures: Yes I know all that, thank you for your condescension. It seemed like he was asking if this was a global setting such as a game option which you set for all empires rather than something you change during a game.

I was attempting to lay out the issues explicitly and constructively contribute to the discussion. My apologies if you read a condascending tone into my post but I can assure you it was not written with that intention. I am not a mind reader and I have no way of knowing what you do or do not know except by the contents of your posts. I can hardly be faulted for trying to lay out the issues clearly regardless of what you do or do not know. As it turns out, LoBaron's subsequent post showed he was indeed talking about the same issues I posted about.

No one is to blame, misunderstandings are bound to happen in online discussions. It has now been cleared up but I feel the need to state for the record that I was not trying to talk down to anyone.

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Post #: 43
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 10:53:15 PM   
elliotg


Posts: 3597
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		Just to clarify: this setting will apply to all empires, so AI empires will use the default setting in their empire policy (military ships only refuel when have Free Trade Agreement). You are welcome to change *your* empire policy for this setting to whatever you like.

So this change will mean that you will no longer have fleets or military ships of other empires showing up in your systems when you don't want them - unless they're there on unfriendly terms

(in reply to Aures)
Post #: 44
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 11:01:56 PM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2529
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

So this change will mean that you will no longer have fleets or military ships of other empires showing up in your systems when you don't want them - unless they're there on unfriendly terms


i.e. SHOOT FIRST..........Shoot again............. THEN ask questions!




< Message edited by ehsumrell1 -- 12/20/2010 11:02:25 PM >

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Post #: 45
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/20/2010 11:29:19 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Just to clarify: this setting will apply to all empires, so AI empires will use the default setting in their empire policy (military ships only refuel when have Free Trade Agreement). You are welcome to change *your* empire policy for this setting to whatever you like.

So this change will mean that you will no longer have fleets or military ships of other empires showing up in your systems when you don't want them - unless they're there on unfriendly terms


Will we be able to mod the races A.I individual empire policy in future updates?

< Message edited by ASHBERY76 -- 12/20/2010 11:32:55 PM >

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Post #: 46
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/21/2010 5:53:31 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

So this change will mean that you will no longer have fleets or military ships of other empires showing up in your systems when you don't want them - unless they're there on unfriendly terms


i.e. SHOOT FIRST..........Shoot again............. THEN ask questions!





Or my motto...

IF it moves...shoot it. If it doesn't move...shoot it. If it was moving, you shot it, and now it is not moving...shoot it again!

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(in reply to ehsumrell1)
Post #: 47
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/22/2010 2:14:36 AM   
elliotg


Posts: 3597
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Just to clarify: this setting will apply to all empires, so AI empires will use the default setting in their empire policy (military ships only refuel when have Free Trade Agreement). You are welcome to change *your* empire policy for this setting to whatever you like.

So this change will mean that you will no longer have fleets or military ships of other empires showing up in your systems when you don't want them - unless they're there on unfriendly terms


Will we be able to mod the races A.I individual empire policy in future updates?

I think that's a great idea. Won't be in the first update, but will add this in a future patch.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 48
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/22/2010 5:33:05 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Just to clarify: this setting will apply to all empires, so AI empires will use the default setting in their empire policy (military ships only refuel when have Free Trade Agreement). You are welcome to change *your* empire policy for this setting to whatever you like.

So this change will mean that you will no longer have fleets or military ships of other empires showing up in your systems when you don't want them - unless they're there on unfriendly terms


Thank you for elaborating Elliot, and for considering to change the current situation in the first place.

I am sure you have reasons why the set default limit is an FTA and not a Defensive Pact and I am aware this is no democracy.

Still, personally I´d prefer the default (so also for the AI) trigger for ship refuel a Defensive Pact.

A FTA is an economic treaty and not a strategic one and I don´t believe that such strategic considerations should have an impact on the economic decision to enter a trade agreement with a race.
A Mutual Defensive Pact on the other hand is a strategic treaty and so would be a logical basis for allowing foreign ships to refuel at your bases because of the name alone. Mutual Defense nearly implies
to serve as trigger for fleet refuel.

My point is that forcing the AI to the default FTA setting instead of MDP makes entering a FTA a strategic decision.
Only reason to set FTA by default which comes to my mind at the moment is if the AI uses MDP too rarely.

So I am all for MDP as default. I understand if there are reasons for it to be an FTA but I´d apprechiate if you could hint them because currently I cannot think of
any except issues with the AI handling FTA/MDP.




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Post #: 49
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/22/2010 6:05:37 AM   
forsaken1111

 

Posts: 281
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline 		When it comes down to it though, you are 'trading' hydrogen or caslon gas so I think a FTA is appropriate. You're balking at trading fuel gas to someone while you're okay with trading them all of the other strategic materials required to make new ships?

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 50
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/22/2010 6:25:06 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		I thought about this too and you got a point.

But the issue with refuelling of fleets is not that they DO refuel (aka "trade" strategic ressources), but that they:

can suck your supply dry in one instant depending on the size of the fleet (which simply is not the case for other strat ressources)

-> IMO a point against FTA because theres a great differerence between a steady flow and one big gulp with major and immediate
consequences. You (and the AI) should be able to benefit from the former without having the economic stability to bear the latter.

enhance their military operational radius without their home empire needing to provide the logistics

-> this is the point that outweights the "strategic ressources" argument IMHO. The decision of an empire to enter such a traty would
be based on military logistics (enhancing the operational radius of the fleet) and strategy (ability to forward deploy forces beyond
the empires borders for an extended period) an because of this the corresponding pact should be of military nature and not of economic one.


Based on the above thats why I´d vote for MDP instead of FTA default, for what it is worth.



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Post #: 51
RE: Non allied military ships refueling at my ports. - 12/22/2010 6:47:06 AM   
forsaken1111

 

Posts: 281
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline 		I understand what you're saying, and he did say you could change your own policy (and later the default for other races). This was really the easiest way to implement it in the current iteration of DW.

Later I hope they consider my idea of an expanded trade system where you can actually set limits on certain exports. Then you could limit fuel trading to a certain amount, keeping a strategic reserve for your own ships.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 52
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