RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 1:45:04 AM

hgilmer3

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I like the game, but not being a person who has played as many wargames as some of the rest, I did not realize that some of these were considered substandard by some.

I recognize the worth of some of the suggestions here, though. I kind of like the tab through units of one HQ thing that SSG has. Some don't use it but man I used that a lot.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 1:56:13 AM

Titanwarrior89

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Over all I enjoy and like the way the game is set up and plays. It has a few problems but with out a doubt its a finished product thats well done. There is not a whole lot I would change in this game.

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Post #: 62

RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 2:38:39 AM

Gandalf

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edit> in regards to noob mistake #1 and HQ (or whatever) being displaced because they are alone and adjacent to enemy combat units alone in mid-turn

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

It happens instantly. That's the problem.

Absolutely agree. What it really needs is for the HQ (or whatever) to be flagged in some way so that the player knows (or is notified in some way), he/she must take care of moving it out of danger by the turn's end... NOT instantly displaced by an oversight.

< Message edited by Gandalf -- 12/20/2010 2:49:58 AM >

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Post #: 63

RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 9:39:00 AM

karonagames

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quote:

Absolutely agree. What it really needs is for the HQ (or whatever) to be flagged in some way so that the player knows (or is notified in some way), he/she must take care of moving it out of danger by the turn's end... NOT instantly displaced by an oversight.

I have put this in the suggestion box, but there has been no direct response as yet. My guess is that game stopping bugs are taking priority, and they will get to the suggestions in due course.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 10:20:03 AM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Just my quick .02. I'm in the Middle of the Minsk scenario right now and easily winning on Normal setting, without yet reading 1 page of rules or tutorial. The best tip re doing things came here in the form of one sentence: "Shift + click to create multi-hex attacks".

Once known, I've just been Shift-clicking, moving and encircling pockets and watching the Soviet AI self-destruct.

Ya... maybe I should just read the damned rulebook afterall!

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 11:12:18 AM

Redmarkus5

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Is there a list of priorities for fixes that can be shared with the community? Like a next release/patch roadmap?

This would help me to decide whether, for example, to continue with my current GC, or go back to playing scenarios until the next big fix comes out...

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 11:16:26 AM

Krupinski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Is there a list of priorities for fixes that can be shared with the community? Like a next release/patch roadmap?

Good idea! Maybe a list like http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2600180 ?

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Post #: 67

RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 11:28:00 AM

Redmarkus5

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Yes, exactly - although some of those issues have already been fixed.

Nice list there though - I hadn't seen that one before.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 11:39:46 AM

karonagames

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I think only Joel will be able to produce the road map.

At the moment the testers are getting hotfixes every 2 days or so with fixes for the repeatable bugs that are being posted in the tech support section. The movement stopper bug hasn't been rooted out in the latest hotfix I received.

The testers are transferring suggestions that appear here onto the development forum so they are consolidated in one place for the programmers to look at.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 12:06:17 PM

htuna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gandalf

edit> in regards to noob mistake #1 and HQ (or whatever) being displaced because they are alone and adjacent to enemy combat units alone in mid-turn

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

It happens instantly. That's the problem.

Absolutely agree. What it really needs is for the HQ (or whatever) to be flagged in some way so that the player knows (or is notified in some way), he/she must take care of moving it out of danger by the turn's end... NOT instantly displaced by an oversight.

I actually like this.. and because all the units are selected when you click on a hex, you have to intentionally unselect an HQ to leave it alone. So if you unselect an HQ that's next to an NME Unit and then move the other unit away, it's your own fault when the HQ runs to the rear!

LOL, I've done it a few times myself, you learn your lesson quickly!

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 1:08:10 PM

Smirfy

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Just like to echo what is being said here, enjoying the game but as the op says there is room for improvement. The air component definetly could do with an overhaul along with the suggestions for improvement I feel probably more abstaction would be the way to go just allocate the % to various missions and away we go. My pet peeve is the game needs a better scenario suite to cater for peoples time and tastes which is being worked on so hopefully things will improve.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 1:11:48 PM

Terminus

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The game is not "unmanagable", but it IS a hypercomplicated one, and it's going to take more than the barely two weeks since release to learn it. Same thing with the campaign game; nobody is going to complete one before the end of the year, or you can call me Meier!

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 1:12:31 PM

JudgeDredd

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I haven't read through all the posts here. Read the first page, but had to say I agree with almost all the OPs comments.

I had posted on this forum to say congratulations to the UI designer....and at that time I meant it 100%. I still very much like the look and feel of the interface. Popup tool tips, colours, icons, map. I think it's rather a sexy looking game. Also, I do still think it's an easy "pick up and play" game. You will not get away with that attitude playing a human player or a difficult setting on the AI, but it can be done against the lower AI without having to read all the manual.

However, on my third play through Road to Minsk, I am getting deeper into the UI, looking for information and how to do various things and now I am at that stage, I have to say the OP is spot on with some of his points. I myself did mention very early on about the unit stack selection process. I am still moving units I don't want to because I forget I'm not just clicking the top most unit, but the whole stack. I never mentioned anything else because I've been busy playing and learning and also because I'm still learning and didn't know what was down to me and what was down to the game.

I'm often finding the air operations part of the game lacking now. Show me hexes that can be attacked. Right click and "No units within range"...but the hex is highlighted red - making me think there is a valid target.

And with the "showing cumulative values" in a stack, I'm often seeing units with 52 MPs - only to click and see it's a unit I had already moved that has 2 MPs left and can't move, and an HQ with 50. Because the HQ is below, it just looks like there are units there with alot of MPs. I know some people might say if I am looking back at a unit I've already moved then I shouldn't be playing this game (someone did say something similar to another poster on these boards). But perhaps something more constructive could be done? I'm not sure of a way around it, perhaps not adding the HQs MPs to the stack value? Maybe it's something I have to live with and I will get used to. But if I am finding that with the small 3 turn Road to Minsk scenario, the big campaign scares the bejesus out of me.

It could well be that some of the points will be addressed. It could also be true that some things are just "getting used to".

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 1:27:05 PM

hgilmer3

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quote:

Ya... maybe I should just read the damned rulebook afterall!

Yes, Minsk seems easy when you are just moving through the Soviets at will, but it can punch you in the nose, if you're not careful!

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 1:28:31 PM

hgilmer3

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quote:

I know some people might say if I am looking back at a unit I've already moved then I shouldn't be playing this game (someone did say something similar to another poster on these boards).

Well, then, I guess I shouldn't be playing this game. I am always going back and making sure I have not missed anything. There always seems to be some unit just sitting around taking a coffee break!

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 10:48:47 PM

htuna

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Just got my butt kicked in my first try at Smolensk... Started it up again of course!!.. Awesome game, minor tweaks here and there in the UI would be good.. but also don't take away a lot of the 'good' things..

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 11:15:36 PM

Joel Billings

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Appreciate the feedback and all the comments.

At this time, we are inundated with information (a good thing). Our priority right now is to fix game play bugs. Although we feel very good that the game is very playable out of the box, there are plenty of issues that have been coming up that are keeping us busy. Some of these are fairly easily fixed, but some of the other technical issues are more difficult as they don't appear on all systems. These will continue to be our priority, but over time these should diminish and at that point we should have time to work on improving the game.

Some of these suggested improvements have been discussed during development and were too difficult to be worth attempting. Others were and still are a matter of opinion and where there are multiple ways to handle something and a large number of people supporting both sides of competing methods, we're not likely to make a change. It's only where there is a clear preference for a change that we'd be looking to make a change. The good news is that Pavel is much more technically proficient than Gary, and because of this things that were left the way they are because Gary couldn't do it may be possible once Pavel has time. I don't want to provide false hope though. There are a lot of things that were done the way they were with the interface that are kluged and would not be easy to change (and if changed might end up adding a lot of bugs to be weeded out). It's easy to talk about the ideal interface when starting from scratch, quite another to try to make changes to something that has been put together already. We'll do what we can to improve things, but don't expect miracles.

As for play balance, we expect to stay on this and tweak the game over time as we get more feedback.

As for the air war, I know this is something Pavel would love to invest some of his time in to improve. I think a lot of it works now more than you think if you're willing to use the air doctrine screen, but it could stand improving. I fully expect once the number of bugs and technical issues calm down, that some time will go into this.

Remember we plan on using this system for several more games, and we expect to be in a situation that any improvements in War in the East will immediately go into the future games, so we see many reasons to keep improving War in the East.

Some of you have acknowledged the work of Pavel and the testers in trying to be responsive to questions and issues brought up. I think they're doing a great job. The success of the game is giving us a lot of posts to go through, but that's good news.

I don't plan on putting up a list anytime soon of items that we are working on. We can hardly manage our own internal list at the moment. Perhaps this will be something to consider down the road.

I think it is easier for us to deal with issues one per thread as opposed to having one thread that tries to deal with a ton of issues all at once. For that reason, I suggest that once you feel an issue has been raised that has gotten a fair amount of support for the importance of a change, that you post that one suggested change and develop solutions to that issue or garner support for a specific change. I think that is more likely to get on the radar screen. I did see a serious of posts about having units making a hasty attack remaining selected after the attack. That's one I immediately agreed with and added to the list (no idea if it's easy or hard to do, so can't say if it will get done).

In conclusion, thanks to all that are playing and providing us with feedback on the game. We're committed to improving the game over time and releasing future games that will also benefit from the improvements made.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/20/2010 11:32:08 PM

Mynok

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I like the stack default personally. Most of the time, I do want to move the stack. When I don't, simply click what doesn't move. Sorry, but that is simple and logical to me.

Now having to click fest support units around....ugh.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/21/2010 12:58:19 AM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
A game like this is meant to allow you to simulate the entire campaign in the East, but currently its unmanagable. <snip>
There�s been some huge exaggeration the �beer and pretzels� aspects of the UI.

With all due respect, I think there was a bit of exaggeration in your post too. It is most definitely manageable and I would say more approachable than pretty much any "monster" wargame to date. A UI can always be improved, but some points are also matters of preference or being used to one way of doing things, when another way is just as easy.

With that said, I fully agree with Joel's post.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/21/2010 2:13:46 AM

PyleDriver

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I drink beer, watch the boob tube, and play the full campaigns. Trust me it becomes easier with use...You guys are still on your honeymoon, tring to figure out the woman you just married...

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/21/2010 2:52:42 AM

paullus99

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I seriously doubt anyone expected this (or said) was going to be a "beer & pretzels" game - given the history of WiTP & WiTP:AE, I would expect nothing less than the most detailed computer wargame of the Eastern Front every put in front of serious gamers.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/21/2010 2:58:54 AM

hgilmer3

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If I drink beer and eat pretzels, can I still play it "in depth"?

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/21/2010 4:21:20 AM

balto

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I think we all know that the UI will not be improved that much because the effort required would be enormous.

But as an alternative, I wish the manual could be extensively updated on a regular basis to offset the weaknesses of the UI -- in effect, make the manual FULLY COMPREHENSIVE so the game could function without the daily patrolling of the forum.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/21/2010 4:28:46 AM

Gandalf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

I think we all know that the UI will not be improved that much because the effort required would be enormous.

But as an alternative, I wish the manual could be extensively updated on a regular basis to offset the weaknesses of the UI -- in effect, make the manual FULLY COMPREHENSIVE so the game could function without the daily patrolling of the forum.

Considering that they have stated somewhere that several games are being considered based on this same game engine, it might help if they do optimize some parts of the UI going forward. i.e. for just a single game, it wouldn't really be worth the effort, but for several games, it could help to smooth out the rough edges.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/21/2010 5:31:43 AM

PyleDriver

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I know alot of people refer to the 41 campaign as GC...Really the GC will be the entire WIE. Hope I live that long...

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/21/2010 8:35:57 AM

turska

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My two cents about the UI.

First the list view with the all units and various possible filters.
Please add function "select and center on unit" or something. So you could select a division, hq, attachment whatever and with that it would close the list view and center on the selected unit on the map.

Also i would like to suffle attachments around a bit easier. Now its a pain to move those.
Like a selecting division and its attachment batallion a the gates of Sevastopol and say to that battalion that i want you to go to division X wich is for example on the gates of Leningrad. Because of the distance it could take more than one turn before the batallion arrives at division X near the Leningrad.

< Message edited by turska -- 12/21/2010 8:36:08 AM >

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/21/2010 12:36:24 PM

raizer

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any way to cycle thru units in the stacks? I would love to be able to rotate units and put whatever one on the top-Just hoping is all

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/22/2010 1:12:54 AM

squatter

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Yes Erik, I agree I tend to write with a dash of hyperbole. Makes for more provocative reading I say.

What I will say is that the more I play, the greater my admiration for what is clearly an incredible engine.

But for the express purpose of simulating the entire campaign - including controlling the air war and support units - I would still maintain that the UI makes it an unrealistic proposition for me, at least. We will see how many players complete a 41-45 campaign PBEM in time. Probably lots of it.

For me, smaller scenarios will remain the way forward for now.

I also respect the support and willingness to engage from the likes of you and Joel and testers. Cant complain about that.

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/22/2010 6:34:05 AM

Steeltrap

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
What I would benefit from though, is a 3-4 page how to guide: "How do I do this? You do that", type of thing. If they could summarise what needs to be done each turn and what can be done each turn and then quickly show me what to click, then this game will be a real winner on my PC. At the end of that, refer me to another guide for a "how to delve deeper" experience.

THIS!!!

I have a professional bias here, becuase some of my work involves trying to get this sort of thing done (sadly for things far less entertaining).

There is SO much detail involved ~ which is great LONG term ~ that it is somewhat overwhelming initially to know what is important. The manual gives good factual info on how the system works but what it DOESN'T do too well is put it in context for the average user.

Suppose there's a 'system' the experienced testers do. Let's imagine it's something like check supply status, check command levels, check distance to HQ, allocate support etc etc.

Now they have learned that that is an effective way to play the game. SHARE IT!!

A section right at the start after how to set up a game blah blah would be brilliant, because you could link those actions to the sections in the manual.

Then you'd have both a technical guide AND a "guide written from the perspective of the person in the chair".

I have already posted elsewhere how much I appreciate a proper manual with a game (so rare these days), so don't take this as anything other than respecting that and saying with not TOO much effort the effective utility of the manual would be improved ten-fold for the beginning player. More experienced players would delve more deeply anyway, and the manual supports that as is.

Cheers

< Message edited by Steeltrap -- 12/22/2010 6:35:59 AM >

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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest... - 12/22/2010 6:51:40 AM

jomni

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quote:

ORIGINAL: raizer

any way to cycle thru units in the stacks? I would love to be able to rotate units and put whatever one on the top-Just hoping is all

Why would you want to do this when you can clearly see them in the side panel?

(in reply to raizer)

Post #: 90