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Support unit specialities - 12/20/2010 11:08:05 PM

squatter

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Now, this may be in the manual so forgive me.

I'm still wondering about the relative value of different support units aside from the CV they bring.

Now, we all know that different weapons perform differently at varying ranges, so direct fire guns will be good in open situations. But what other factors are at play?

Do engineers have a bonus against fortifications?

Do howitzers and large calibre have a bonus against fortifications?

Are towed guns better in defence than attack when, for example, in open terrain?

Do motorcycle units provide better detection levels for nearby enemy units?

Are self-propelled guns better in attack than towed guns?

Regarding support attachment strategies, does it make sense for formations that are on the defensive to keep support units at the corps level as you cant control exactly which combat unit will be attacked, whereas for offensive formations, better to attach at the div level as you know which units are going to fight, and therefore where to put the support?

And one last thing - what exactly is the AP cost to transfering support units representing? The AI is allowed to make unlimited support unit transfers on your behalf, but you are not. Isnt the penalty for transfering support units the fact that they are in transit for a turn? Shouldnt perhaps support unit transfers not incur an AP cost? You are not limited for the amount of airgroup transfers, for example?

Sorry, one more: do support unit transfers cost fuel/motorpool?

Post #: 1

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 8:48:39 AM

Apollo11

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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

Now, this may be in the manual so forgive me.

I'm still wondering about the relative value of different support units aside from the CV they bring.

Now, we all know that different weapons perform differently at varying ranges, so direct fire guns will be good in open situations. But what other factors are at play?

Do engineers have a bonus against fortifications?

Do howitzers and large calibre have a bonus against fortifications?

Are towed guns better in defence than attack when, for example, in open terrain?

Do motorcycle units provide better detection levels for nearby enemy units?

Are self-propelled guns better in attack than towed guns?

Regarding support attachment strategies, does it make sense for formations that are on the defensive to keep support units at the corps level as you cant control exactly which combat unit will be attacked, whereas for offensive formations, better to attach at the div level as you know which units are going to fight, and therefore where to put the support?

And one last thing - what exactly is the AP cost to transfering support units representing? The AI is allowed to make unlimited support unit transfers on your behalf, but you are not. Isnt the penalty for transfering support units the fact that they are in transit for a turn? Shouldnt perhaps support unit transfers not incur an AP cost? You are not limited for the amount of airgroup transfers, for example?

Sorry, one more: do support unit transfers cost fuel/motorpool?

The engineers most certainly do help against fortifications - in fact they are "must have" if you wish to tackle the fortified enemy position!

IIRC this should be in manual as well.

As for your other questions all ready elements (i.e. squads and all guns and AFVs) have a chance (but depending on some dice rolls of course) to engage enemy at various ranges!

Thus certain guns will be better than the other guns depending on the situation!!!

IIRC there is no bonus for recon and motorcycle units.

Also please note that directly attached Support Units (i.e. to germane Divisions and Soviet Corps) will alway be present in battle whilst all other Support units attached to parent HQs (up the chain of the command) will participate in combat depending on many many circumstances (including dice rolls and other limitations - including MAX number limitation - this is all explained in manual as well)!

Leo "Apollo11"

P.S.
If you set the combat message resolution to most detailed (and slowest) you can see for yourself when different element engage each other in combat!

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Post #: 2

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 1:19:42 PM

ComradeP

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quote:

Regarding support attachment strategies, does it make sense for formations that are on the defensive to keep support units at the corps level as you cant control exactly which combat unit will be attacked, whereas for offensive formations, better to attach at the div level as you know which units are going to fight, and therefore where to put the support?

That depends on your defensive situation, but it makes sense.

quote:

And one last thing - what exactly is the AP cost to transfering support units representing? The AI is allowed to make unlimited support unit transfers on your behalf, but you are not. Isnt the penalty for transfering support units the fact that they are in transit for a turn? Shouldnt perhaps support unit transfers not incur an AP cost? You are not limited for the amount of airgroup transfers, for example?

You pay AP's for having direct control, basically.

quote:

Sorry, one more: do support unit transfers cost fuel/motorpool?

There should already be vehicles in the unit, if the unit uses vehicles, so the motor pool should not be pillaged by support units. I also don't think they use fuel when transferring as it isn't an actual movement, but I might be wrong.

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Post #: 3

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 5:52:19 PM

Speedysteve

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From: Reading, England
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Quick Q on Construction support units. If I have them in Corps HQ will they automatically be sent to help fort construction on the frontlines?

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Post #: 4

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 6:30:26 PM

ComradeP

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Within 5 hexes and when not repairing a nearby rail line, yes.

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Post #: 5

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 6:55:18 PM

SgtKachalin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Within 5 hexes and when not repairing a nearby rail line, yes.

Automatically? 7.6.4 implies that both range and leadership can affect this. Though it happens "automatically".

Or am I totally in the weeds? (Deciphering 7.6.4 is a chore IMO...)

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Post #: 6

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 6:57:02 PM

ComradeP

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Edit: OK, I remembered that rule incorrectly. A leader admin check is required and each construction unit can assist 1 combat unit each turn.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/21/2010 7:01:30 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 7:00:47 PM

karonagames

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15.3.2.2 on page 205 explains the support unit entrenchment assistance rules.

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Post #: 8

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 7:01:46 PM

SgtKachalin

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I think 7.6.4 is non-combat support; it happens during logistics. And this from the manual:

quote:

Game Play Info: The above type of HQ support using support squad
ground elements should not be confused with headquarter units
providing support units during combat (15.4) or supply tracing and
receiving ( 20.4).

Then again I could be all wet!

Great game... manual is great in areas but... less so in others.

< Message edited by Sgt Barker -- 12/21/2010 7:02:15 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 7:02:27 PM

ComradeP

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quote:

15.3.2.2. SUPPORT UNIT ASSIST TO FORT LEVEL CONSTRUCTION
Construction and engineer support units attached to headquarters units in the combat unit�s
chain of command can assist those combat units in constructing fort levels if the applicable
headquarters unit passes a leader admin check.

The headquarters unit that the combat unit is directly attached must be within five hexes of that combat unit. In addition, no more than three levels of headquarters units in the combat units chain of command can assist, and each higher headquarters unit that may provide support units must be within five hexes of the next
lower level headquarters unit.

For example, in order for construction and engineer support units to assist down the entire eligible chain of command, a German combat unit attached to a Corps headquarters unit must be able to trace five hexes back to that Corps HQ unit.

The Corps HQ unit in turn must be able to trace five hexes back to the Army HQ unit to which it is
attached, and finally the Army HQ unit must be able to trace five hexes back to the Army Group
HQ. In the above example, if the unit was within 5 hexes of its Corps HQ but the Corps was not
within 5 HQ of its Army HQ, then only support units in the Corps HQ would be able to potentially
assist the unit. Each eligible support unit may assist the fort level building of no more than one
combat unit per turn.

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Post #: 10

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 7:03:40 PM

SgtKachalin

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OK, but then what "support" is 7.6.4 referring to?

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Post #: 11

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 7:05:18 PM

ComradeP

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Support from a HQ

quote:

Game Play Info: The above type of HQ support using support squad
ground elements should not be confused with headquarter units
providing support units during combat (15.4) or supply tracing and
receiving ( 20.4).

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Post #: 12

RE: Support unit specialities - 12/21/2010 9:24:24 PM

Speedysteve

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From: Reading, England
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Thanks guys

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Post #: 13