Slitherine

quote:

The first screenshot with the units (almost) in the bag is my turn 10.
The second screenhot, with them gone, is turn 11.

To make the screenshots, I changed the file extensions of the Soviet saves to scn and loaded them as a scenario with both players human. Don't know how else to make the screenshots.

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ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Again I stress that the German units should be considered as getting into position during the Soviet players turn due to the system the game uses. Penalties should not be imposed until 1 turn of isolation has occurred, otherwise it’s not fair to the defense.

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ORIGINAL: henri51

Ok, Jim, but just for argument's sake (until the facts can be clarified about this specific pocket),if what you say is true, it seems to imply that in principle one can NEVER create a pocket, because the AI opponent, as soon as he sees the pocket closing, could immediately fly out of the pocket.

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ORIGINAL: Kelblau

I agree with our friend.

1/The fact that even quite well done pockets (with only one tiny hole) will see almost all pocketed units is extremely frustrating. Especially when you read books after books about the fact that even loosely closed pockets managed to bag huge number of soviet units. To put it in a nutshell : things seem to go a little bit too smoothly in a pocket, and it does not feel right. Pockets, even incomplete one are not the chaos and logistic nightmare we feel they should be, when inadequate commanders are in charge. The supernatural knowledge of the soviet units to find the way out is a bit too much.
SUGGESTION : I would enjoy some more friction and attrition here : maybe the "fall-back-and-escape-the-pocket" AI routine could leave some units without the orders ?

2/ Second point : a routed (and supposedly exhausted and disorganized) infantry division can make 3 or 4 times the distance of the panzer divisions who are chasing it. It seems to be a bit too much.
SUGGESTION : I would advise a tweak to the behaviour of routed units making them able to retrat once at running speed. But not twice: if a routed unit gets in contacta second time with a division-level combat unit, the exhausted guys would simply collapse of fatigue and constitute themselve prisonners - the unit disappears.

That said, lets congratulate one more time the designers and testers for this (still a bit rough) diamond.

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ORIGINAL: fsp
Talking real life: To leave this pocket, you'd have to pass by either the SS brigade or the two divisons east, which would see you lose at least some troops, if around 500,000 men are passing through a 20 mile hole. I know the design decisions you have to take there might come back to hound you, still...

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ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

So they all knew where the gap was going to be, at a time-scale before the gap was finalised, none of them blundered into the encircling units, no traffic hold-ups, as all these units slip effortlessly through the narrowing gap.

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
In terms of not-quite virtual simultaneity, if the gap wasn't finalized, then they wouldn't have to know exactly where it was, only that they had to rush north. They might be imagined as passing through the future/past path of the moving encirclers either before or after they had gone by. After all confusion might just as well afflict the encirclers -- perhaps even more so since they are expecting to meet up with friendly troops coming from the opposite direction, but they don't know when where or how, whereas the escaping troops just have to avoid any encounters.

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ORIGINAL: 76mm

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
In terms of not-quite virtual simultaneity, if the gap wasn't finalized, then they wouldn't have to know exactly where it was, only that they had to rush north. They might be imagined as passing through the future/past path of the moving encirclers either before or after they had gone by. After all confusion might just as well afflict the encirclers -- perhaps even more so since they are expecting to meet up with friendly troops coming from the opposite direction, but they don't know when where or how, whereas the escaping troops just have to avoid any encounters.

I still think it is rather unrealistic to have to shut off every possible avenue of escape to avoid a pocket emptying out. Again, many units would not even know they were encircled, would be waiting for orders that never came, would here that there was a gap to the north, not to the west, etc., resulting in a large bag of encircled units. In WiTe, you leave a one hex gap and -POOF- the pocket is empty. That's not right...

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
Realistically the encirclers would be more confused than the encircled. The encircled just have to get out, the encirclers have to go deep into enemy territory, strung with transport along winding routes at top speed, get to some unknown location in some time frame, find all the other encirclers, stay suppplied and in contact with their own forces and be prepared to react to threats from any direction. The encircled just have to stay out of contact and get away through familiar territory.

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ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
Realistically the encirclers would be more confused than the encircled. The encircled just have to get out, the encirclers have to go deep into enemy territory, strung with transport along winding routes at top speed, get to some unknown location in some time frame, find all the other encirclers, stay suppplied and in contact with their own forces and be prepared to react to threats from any direction. The encircled just have to stay out of contact and get away through familiar territory.

I don't follow the logic here, the encirclers have the initiative, they know the event is about to take place, they may have been planning and briefing for days, they have a plan, they know where they are required to go, through recon they may already know where the opposition is. The defenders have few of these advantages, they have to react to events, at short notice, driven by a plan that they don't know the details off (with exception of events such as Kursk).

Except that with IGOUGO, the defender seems to get to see the opposition plan fully unfold, then gets a chance to react to it, therefore I still think that there needs to be some penalty to reflect the realistic situation of defenders reacting to events as they happen and not after they have happened. In reality some units would flee through any gaps, but some would blunder into encircling units and be forced to try to fight their way out.

It is early days and I would not want to prejudge the issue, but the event under discussion does seem odd.

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
Maybe there was no plan. Maybe the encirclers have no idea they are encircling anything. Maybe the timing was off for much longer than it seems and maybe all of that adds up to a lot of escape routes for the encircled. Remember, the encircled don't need a plan and are withdrawing along their supply routes and could well have much better communications than the encirclers. They just have to get out fast.

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ORIGINAL: Offworlder
Maybe they got railed out of the pocket???

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ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
Maybe there was no plan. Maybe the encirclers have no idea they are encircling anything. Maybe the timing was off for much longer than it seems and maybe all of that adds up to a lot of escape routes for the encircled. Remember, the encircled don't need a plan and are withdrawing along their supply routes and could well have much better communications than the encirclers. They just have to get out fast.

The Germans did not launch over 3 million men and 1000s of tanks into Russia without a plan, from Hitler Directives, through Armee Group, Panzer Group, Armee, Korps, Division, Luftwaffe, Artillery, etc, etc, there were detailed plans. The whole ethos of Blitzkrieg is the encircling movement by combined armoured, infantry and air forces and they know there are Russian forces they wish to encircle.

Either way, in the chaos of these gigantic battles, huges forces, many on foot, cannot simply disappear from the main combat area at will, whilst a highly competent mobile force doesn't see them go.

I don't say the no Russians can escape the pocket (we know that huge numbers did), I am just suprised that, in the example given, no Soviet units had to fight to escape, they all seemed to be able to swiftly march out of danger, along safe routes, evading any contact with enemy units.

I repeat, I don't want to prejudge the Campaign that I have not played yet (the testers have played 1000s of hours, we haven't) and I am aware of the potential effects of IgoUgo turn system, but it just doesn't feel right and I suggest that there are ways to modify the parameters, to reflect the advantages of the initiative the attacker holds.

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

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ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

And yet the Germans did just that, bagging hundreds of thousands of prisoners in a matter of weeks. Isn't that proof enough that Soviet forces should not be able to evaporate out of a pocket?