Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

Which way do you run ? A retreat order is given, enemy units which can move faster than you are moving somewhere in the rear and you don't know where they are headed, which way is safe ? You said earlier that troops retreat down their own supply lines, that is correct and those lines of communications are the first thing that the enemy will cut. It would be reasonable to assume that at least some (I never said catch everybody)of the retreating units might run into the encircling forces. That didn't seem to happen in the example given.

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
It's not much of a game if the Germans just duplicate 1941 over and over.

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ORIGINAL: 76mm

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
It's not much of a game if the Germans just duplicate 1941 over and over.

Also not much of a wargame if it doesn't reflect reality.

No one here is suggesting that the Russians should just sit there and surrender, but they should not be able to teleport out of the pocket either.

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

quote:

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

Which way do you run ? A retreat order is given, enemy units which can move faster than you are moving somewhere in the rear and you don't know where they are headed, which way is safe ? You said earlier that troops retreat down their own supply lines, that is correct and those lines of communications are the first thing that the enemy will cut. It would be reasonable to assume that at least some (I never said catch everybody)of the retreating units might run into the encircling forces. That didn't seem to happen in the example given.

The example looks extreme, but the underlying logic is reasonable: an incomplete pocket is not a pocket at all. Essentially, the defender has a week to get out. When he starts retreating, everything on the LOCs gets out right away, before there's even a rumor of enemy forces. that's maybe 50% of the support troops and say 10-20% of the line units (replacements, repairs etc.). so that takes a day or two at most.
Then the line units pull out along with the remaining support units. Since the enemy already magically knows (incorrectly) that it's a pocket the line units pull out in strategic move mode, and slip out of the encirclement long, long before even the enemy advanced guard even turns up. This leaves only stragglers to be
picketed up by the confused and out-of-position encirclers who clearly have no idea what's going on since they turned up in the wrong place at the wrong time and left all kinds of holes in the cordon. Since its an emergency, there's less straggling and the stragglers who are picked up are more than covered in terms of loses by normal attrition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

quote:

ORIGINAL: MengJiao

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

quote:

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

Which way do you run ? A retreat order is given, enemy units which can move faster than you are moving somewhere in the rear and you don't know where they are headed, which way is safe ? You said earlier that troops retreat down their own supply lines, that is correct and those lines of communications are the first thing that the enemy will cut. It would be reasonable to assume that at least some (I never said catch everybody)of the retreating units might run into the encircling forces. That didn't seem to happen in the example given.

The example looks extreme, but the underlying logic is reasonable: an incomplete pocket is not a pocket at all. Essentially, the defender has a week to get out. When he starts retreating, everything on the LOCs gets out right away, before there's even a rumor of enemy forces. that's maybe 50% of the support troops and say 10-20% of the line units (replacements, repairs etc.). so that takes a day or two at most.
Then the line units pull out along with the remaining support units. Since the enemy already magically knows (incorrectly) that it's a pocket the line units pull out in strategic move mode, and slip out of the encirclement long, long before even the enemy advanced guard even turns up. This leaves only stragglers to be
picketed up by the confused and out-of-position encirclers who clearly have no idea what's going on since they turned up in the wrong place at the wrong time and left all kinds of holes in the cordon. Since its an emergency, there's less straggling and the stragglers who are picked up are more than covered in terms of loses by normal attrition.

If you think that this is an extreme example, then you have a lot to learn about warfare on the Eastern Front 1941/45 and maybe playing this game will help.

Up to 5 million Russian troops became POWs, most of them died in captivity, how extreme do you want it to be. This did not happen because they were able to slip out of the encirclement, at least they couldn't until later in the war when strategy and tactics improved.

In 1941 the Soviet defender doesn't have a week to get out, he has a week to realise the attack is taking place, to work out what the enemy objectives might be, decide whether to hold, or not (penalty for not holding is a firing squad - tendency is therefore to hold), retreat is usually forced after command and control has collapsed (usually HQs overun, enemy is already in the rear areas). By the time the Russians are retreating it is already too late. The power of the game is for the Russians to still win after suffering all of this, or with a different German strategy, do they get the chance.

To be of value the game needs to be as accurate as possible and maybe it is, time will tell.

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
I don't see the point in forcing the game to repeat 1941 over and over. It seems to me that to get a range of outcomes, you need to be very strict in what a pocket is. An incomplete pocket is not a pocket at all. Hence the troops can just leave. If you want to cripple the Russians at the push of a button, you'll probably have to make your own mod.

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ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
I don't see the point in forcing the game to repeat 1941 over and over. It seems to me that to get a range of outcomes, you need to be very strict in what a pocket is. An incomplete pocket is not a pocket at all. Hence the troops can just leave. If you want to cripple the Russians at the push of a button, you'll probably have to make your own mod.

The game is called War in the East - The German Soviet War 1941-1945, with 1941 being one of the most significant years, which cannot be ignored, with different strategies the war may have ended there. Different strategies are meaningless if the game doesn't represent the true capabilities of the forces and equipment involved. The whole point is, that I don't want to repeat the actual events of 1941, I don't expect that anyone on this forum does, but I want to try different strategies with the forces and conditions faced by the commanders of that time. In this game no one will ever be crippling the Russians at the push of a button.

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ORIGINAL: MengJiao
I think the problem of 1941 is not resolvable in game terms. A German general staff study in the 1970s concluded there was absolutely no way the German Army could have taken Moscow and/or knocked Russia out of the War in 1941. And yet players demand that "realistically" they ought to be able to do just that. To insist that it be possible is essentially to insist that the Russians be crippled before the game starts.

So, since the problem is not resolvable in game terms, I'm skipping to 1942, a year where I think everybody admits things could go either way.
I'm not going to play any 1941 scenarios since I think realistically, they should be infinitely frustrating for the Germans and that does not sound like much fun.