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RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/6/2011 9:29:08 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		T13 results:

Except for some infantry pushes I mainly moved my armor a bit to the rear to rest up for attacks on the next turn.

With the fairly easy gains in the south I think that on the one hand the Soviets are starting to really feel their losses and on the other hand they seem to focus their defense around Moscow for now.

With a total of 440k men, 4.8k guns and 0.2k AFV lost I doubt that Stalin will be very happy about this turns results. For the first time the Wehrmacht is ahead of the Red Army in every branch but planes.

Despite Moscow not being on my list of objectives for this season I am tempted to keep on pressing for some more turns.

1. I might pocket even more troops which should hurt the Soviet counteroffensive during the winter.

2. While the Soviets care about Moscow I should have an easier time in other areas.

3. It might not be completely impossible to take Moscow and with Fiinish defenders I am not sure if I will not be able to keep it.

Any comment/ideas - especially concerning my ideas about Moscow, but everything is welcome?






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Post #: 91
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 8:26:30 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
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Status: offline 		That's a very nice haul of dead Russian divisions.

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Post #: 92
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 1:55:53 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		Nice job so far. Unfortunately the Finns won't be able to help you with Moscow since they can't get that far south. However, you may consider where your mountain units are at and what you plan on doing with them for the winter. If you make a big push on Moscow and want to try to hold it, you may want to redeploy the mountain units to the center. 

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Post #: 93
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 3:23:41 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Yup, read up about the Finnish forces in the manual, I would need MTNs there.

I think I will put up a screenshot of Moscow with my available units up for discussion before doing my next turn.

At them moment I tend to go for it, but somehow this does feel wrong (maybe since I explitly did not make Moscow an objective for the frist season) and I would love to hear opinions based on the current situation.

CharonJr

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Post #: 94
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 3:56:31 PM   
jjdenver

 

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Status: offline 		I think you need to start again with a higher difficulty level because I think you've about put paid to the Reds in this one. Nice job. :)

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Post #: 95
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 5:37:09 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		T13 follow-up:

9 units with 95k men, 1.5k guns and 0.2k AFVs surrendered.


T14 north:

The Leningrad pocket is further compressed - 25 additional units with 223k men, 2.2k guns and 0.3k AFV are lost, with Germany losing 11k men and 0.2k guns.

It seems like the Soviets are trying to build establish a salient to the east of Leningrad, I will try to cut this off and start to get infantry into position.But in the meantime I invite them to come in further ;)

LVI is slowly gathered together again and will play a major role in the push.

XXXIX Panzer is rested and moves closer to the front for a thrust of its own around Moscow.

3 Soviet divisions, including 1 tank are trapped between Rzhev and Moscow.

60 miles to Moscow for the leading infantry divisions.






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Post #: 96
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 5:38:11 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		T14 center:

With the infantry slowly pushing closer to Moscow LVII Panzer is moved into position for a thrust.

Around Kaluga the Soviets are pushed to the other side of the river again.

Infantry continues it advance towards Voronezh and unless the Soviets pull back their fairly well defended line along the Oka I will try to encircle them next turn and isolate Tula as well. XII Panzer is moved a bit to the north and XXIV Panzer to the east in preparation.






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Post #: 97
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 5:39:22 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		T14 south:

After initial infantry advances XXXXVIII Panzer rushes forward and surrounds Stalino and cuts off the units to the SW of it.

Another small pocket is created to the north of Stalino, but unlikely to hold.

III Panzer is brought into position to support a push on Rostov, my last remaining target for this season. XIV Panzer is moved a bit to the SE, too.

After a heavy air supported attack on the defenders in the swamp around the river Chatyrlyk failed I decide to try to cut those off before attacking them again.






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Post #: 98
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 5:40:38 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		T14 results:

The Soviets continue to feel the pain and it isnt over yet.

The Red Army lost another 200k soldiers since the last turn in contrast to the Wehrmacht's 10k. In addition they lost a large number of guns (2.5k) and AFVs (0.7k).

I have no idea what a reasonable number of Soviet casualties is at this point, but from the lack of resistance I see in some areas it feels like a good number. At least on paper 14:1 looks good.

My last objective for this season - Rostov - is in sight. I am not sure about what the winter will do in the south (have to read the manual about this), but being able to take and keep Rostov would surely be since for next seasons drive towards the oilfields.






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Post #: 99
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 5:43:49 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Just one piece of advice - double check that your railheads can supply AGS when the mud hits. When I got beyond the line you are at now AGS was isolated from supply when the Mud arrived.

Mud adds +4 to movement costs, so anything that is 25+ mps from the railhead in clear weather will be isolated when the mud arrives.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 1/7/2011 5:49:30 PM >

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Post #: 100
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 5:57:40 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Very good advice, thank you, my railhead is currently 32 hexes west of Rostov, a bit to the west of Dnepropetrovsk, so it will be close.

Does the mud hit on turn 18 or after it?

CharonJr

edit: And only the HQs have to be in range, right?

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Post #: 101
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 6:01:25 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		If you are non-random weather - turn 18. Yes on the HQs, but Divs have to be within 20Mps of their corps HQS so some terrain/mud combos might mess with their supply.

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Post #: 102
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 7:51:17 PM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
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Status: offline

Kicking butt!

How many Victory Points do you have?

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Post #: 103
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 7:52:11 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		This is the situation around Moscow before any moves after heavy air recon.

SFA means Supplies/Fuel/Ammo

Most of the infantry divisions are around 30-40 FAT with SFA between 60 and 100+, so they should be in decent shape for a push.

I will list more detailed stats for each of the Panzerkorps in the screenshot.

XXXIX Panzer has 2 Mot, 2 Arm
XL Panzer has 1 MotB, 2 Arm
LVII has 1 Mot, 2 Arm
XXXXVII Panzer has 1 Mot, 1MotB, 2 Arm

Soviet fortifications are mostly at level 1.

1&2 Luftflotte are able to provide support roughly up to 1 hex west of Moscow (less in the north, more in the south).

I would try to create 3 pockets, 2 small ones and 1 large one around Moscow.

The Kalinin pocket would serve to protect against the AI trying to break through to Moscow from there in addition to being usefull itself and the Kaluga pocket in the south would serve the same purpose. And since I need to break through the Soviet lines for the armored thrusts anyway most of the infantry would already be in place there.

I am worried about the distances involved for the Moscow pocket. Due to the terrain I dont think that I will be able to link up the 2 thrusts.

Breaking the northern Soviet line 1 hex further to the SE might be a little bit better or maybe even a simple move up the middle. The CV 19 infantry stack around there has lvl3 fortification, but since I dont need much ground support anyway this might be a good target for my bombers.

XXXXVII Panzer's thrust will have no real influence on the battle for Moscow, but lowering the Soviet number of planes will help and giving the Soviets more areas to worry about should help, too. In addition (depending how deep my infantry is able to get there) I would try to move south towards Tula, too, in order to encircle it or at least threaten encirclement.

Especially since I believe that I will not be able to completely encircle Moscow during this turn, but will need the next one as well.


BTW, is it even possible to isolate Moscow? IIRC Moscow is no supply center, but I am not sure at the moment.

Any comments or ideas?






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< Message edited by CharonJr -- 1/7/2011 7:58:06 PM >

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Post #: 104
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 8:04:14 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Never took a look at VPs before, 206 at the moment.

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Post #: 105
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 9:08:59 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		I am asking myself the following questions:

Can is be done in one turn? - IMO unlikely
Can it be done in 2 turns? - I think so, but is it worth it at this time in the game with 3 just more turns (including this one) before the mud?
Should it be done at all before the next season? - No idea to be honest
In the end the underlying questions seems to be how important is Moscow and can it be defended during the winter in my current situation?

What do you think?

CharonJr

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Post #: 106
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 11:04:43 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Be aware the blizzard is really painful; your CVs will drop to about a third of what they are right now, while Soviet units may get a bonus ( i'm not sure how being almost frozen stiff makes you better, it's just something put in the game ).

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Post #: 107
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/7/2011 11:27:11 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Have you fully reconned? GAIA usually has a few nasty suprises in the Moscow region, but you may have knocked her off balance sufficiently for her not to recover. You obviously have your logistics act together, and/or you have rested your panzers, to have that number of MPs.

2-3 turns, depends on how many MPs you get next turn. You may want to guarantee the MPs by using HQ Buildup; If the defenses are as a weak as they look, then it may be worth burning the trucks.

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Post #: 108
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 2:06:42 AM   
stewartbragg


Posts: 95
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Have you fully reconned? GAIA usually has a few nasty suprises in the Moscow region, but you may have knocked her off balance sufficiently for her not to recover. You obviously have your logistics act together, and/or you have rested your panzers, to have that number of MPs.

2-3 turns, depends on how many MPs you get next turn. You may want to guarantee the MPs by using HQ Buildup; If the defenses are as a weak as they look, then it may be worth burning the trucks.



How much of an impact does taking Moscow have and will it be worth it to him?

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Post #: 109
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 5:03:51 AM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		It is going to be tough. Logistics are stretched to the max and the troops are tired and attrition has taken its toll, but having said that, I think you take a crack at it. If you can get Moscow isolated firmly, even with mud, its going to be in big trouble because you can use the three turns of regular snow to finish off Moscow and set up a huge hedgehog there.

The big thing I wonder about would be is there enough infantry to get the job done both mopping up the pocket and also to get close enough to support the panzer thrust not to mention reducing what are going to be some tough Moscow defenses.

Taking Moscow is going to kick a lot of population replacements off line for the Russians at the very least. If he doesn't take it and is at the gates of Moscow, then all those re-enforcements the Russians get are going to be right there next to Moscow, not to mention units getting filled out right next to Moscow.

I will be interested in what is decided and how it turns out over the next several turns.

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Post #: 110
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 8:55:51 AM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Around Moscow itself this is everything they have unless some of my recons failed completly, around the airbases there might be some additional surprises.

Since I want to displace those airbases or maybe even link up XXXXVII's thrust with XL and LVII I will do some additional recon there - which should lead to additional damaged Soviet planes anyway.

The logicist situation is OK at the moment, I just wish that I have continued the railhead at Smolensk to the east instead of cutting south (autorepairs progressed a bit to the east in the meantime).

With the Finns taking up some of the lines in the north I should be able to move additional infantry south, but yes, currently I am very light on infantry here.

I will give it a shot, even if it fails it will feel better to have at least tried and learn what the problems/consequences are.

Despite the larger number of troops and higher defenses alternative route 2 looks best to me and since at least one of my armor will not need its full MP they should be able to help breaking the line.

CharonJr

< Message edited by CharonJr -- 1/8/2011 8:57:43 AM >

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Post #: 111
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 1:52:47 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		This one was hard, took about 4h to play through here with most of the time spend around Moscow.

T15 center:

The Battle for Moscow begins.

Since I want to damage as many Soviet planes as possible for displacing their airbases later I start with breaking the Soviet lines before moving my mobile units in deep. Attacks against major defensive positions are supported by air and are either deliberate attacks or hasty attacks by 2 units.

My first attacks is to the east of Rzhev after forcing the 3 isolated divisions to surrender. A deliberate attack by 2 units from the SW against the nasty CV 19 stack forces the defenders to retreat. The breach is widened and 20th Panzer helps to push back retreating units to clear the way for the other divisions of XXXIX Panzer. 7th Panzer crosses the Moscva-Volga-Channel and forces the defender at the northern tip of Moscow to retreat freeing up a "low" MP path.

After getting rid of the defenders around Kalinin 206th infantry pushes straight south and connects with XXXIX Panzers ZOC. Torzhok is captured by a deliberate attack and troops are moved intp position to block the Soviet advance from the north.

Next the lines north of Kaluga are penetrated, again with the help of some armor who make it across the Nara and force units that have retreated across it to retreat further or rout, freeing up the "low" MP path for the southern pincer here, too.

With heavy infantry support the river Sosna is crossed to the south of Tula and XXXXVI Panzer starts to move north, cutting off Tula together with XXXXVII Panzer who advance to the north of Tula after breaking up the Soviet line to the south of Kaluga and capturing Kaluga itself.

Parts of XXXXVII Panzer make it across the Oka and take up defensive positions to the SE of Moscow linking up with XL and LVII Panzer.

XXXIX Panzer manages to cross the Klyazma with some MPs to spare and set up defensive positions there.

Essentially I have managed to encircle Moscow to the east with one hex between my units, I have no idea if this will be enough, but the fairly light defenses of Moscow allowed me to do better than I had initially thought.

The ring around Tula looks fairly secure and I doubt the Soviets will be able to penetrate the line to the north of Kalinin.

The line to the east of Moscow and the northern approach are the weakest links in the line and I have no idea if they will hold, but this is a gamble I am willing to take. And while the supply situation will be aweful for my spearheads (will air supply them) I am fairly confident that I should be able to reseal the gaps if the Soviets manage to break through. Having isolated Moscow should help with lowering their supplies even if the pocket is breached.

Air support has been costly, but the Soviets lost about 750 planes during their interceptions and having their bases displaced.






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Post #: 112
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 1:54:48 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		T15 north:

Around Leningrad the defenders are still in fairly good shape, but a foothold into the northern part is gained across the Neva.

I attack by using 3-6 divisions for deliberate attacks, but casualties are high - all initial CVs are about 3+:1. Gladly due to the Soviet's high density of troops even attacks that would normally only lead to retreats end up as surrenders.

In the end the southern parts of Leningrad are captured.

To the east of Leningrad the Soviet lines are breached along the railline and to the south of it, freeing up XXXXI and LVI Panzer to move NE.

XLII Korps is "freed up" (not really, but I think the Soviets have other things to worry about than pushing into the west here) and moved to Torzhok.

Including the Leningrad pocket the Soviets lost about 140k men, 1.5k guns and 0.2k in the north this turn.






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Post #: 113
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 1:55:45 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		T15 south:

The infantry push to the east continues for now which should force to Soviets to take back the territory during the winter, allowing me to trade space for time. At the next turn I will take a closer look at my lines of supply here in order not to run into any supply problems once the mud hits at turn 18.

The Romanian Cav get into position to deal with single isolated units.

A Hungarian mot crosses the Don south of Voronezh.

The southern railhead is brought up to 2 hexes to the west of Dnepropetrovsk.

With my mountain units being way up in front it will not be easy to get them back to the north, but I will try to get them to the closest railline at Dnepropetrovsk including the Hungarians. The Romanian MTN are moving to the north on foot.

With fairly strong defenders inside Voroshilovgrad and my infantry approaching from the north and east it is bypassed for now and III & XIV Panzer head right to Rostov which turns out to be fairly well defended. A bridgehead is established across the Don and Rostov is nearly encircled, but it shouldnt be thast easy for the Soviets to pull out due to ZOCs and the Don.

XXXXVIII Panzer is pulled back towards Dnepropetrovsk for some rest.

At the Krim the first defenders are cut off.






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Post #: 114
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 1:56:46 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		T15 results:

Getting air supplies to my panzers in the north and to the west of Moscow really hurt my transports this turn since I had no fighters in range or they were no longer available due to earlier missions - no such problems in the south. I lost 37 transports in total which hurts, but I hope to be able to get those back during the winter.

My railsystem is still behind where I want it due to the 2 mistakes I made earlier, but should be OK too keep my (current) frontline in supply when the mud hits. In the north the railhead is 5 hexes to the SE of Leningrad.

The defenders of Leningrad are still able to dish out some pain and progress there is slower than I would have thought, I imagine it will be the same with Moscow, ouch...

I set up a fair number of pockets this turn, the most important being around Moscow which is the one I am most worried about, too.

Overall the Soviets lost another 35 units, 135k men, 2.3k guns, 0.3k AFVs and 700 planes this turn with Germany roughly staying the same, expect for 0.1k lost planes.

Overall the Soviets lost close to 3.8 million men and looking at the pockets they might lose something in the range of 1 million more before the mud hits. Especially if they lose Moscow I doubt that they will be able to make a comeback during the winter, but since I have never played a winter turn before I might be surprised.






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Post #: 115
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 1:58:03 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		And finally a screenshot of my current rail network - as already mentiuoned a bit behind what I would like due to earlier mistakes:

I will be in for some pain around Kharkov.




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Post #: 116
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 2:24:39 PM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		Very nice movement!

You seem to get a lot more movement out of your panzers than I do. Perhaps I run them too much and need to rest every now and then. I do avoid combat as much as possible and let the infantry do most of the heavy lifting.

Would appreciate some feedback as to how you manage to keep your panzers topped up with a good supply of movement points.

Cheers.

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Post #: 117
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 2:35:30 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Essentially after every major move they get 1-2 turns of rest.

On the average they spend around 50% of their time resting I think.

I addition I keep on checking which mobile unit has the most "real" MPs (looking how many MPs will be left at certain waypoints) and those are the ones making the final push. For example some of the units in the south that had less nominal MPs than other mobile units were able to move farther.

CharonJr

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Post #: 118
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 2:44:36 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		I think we can safely say you have graduated to Challenging mode!

edit: Just keep double checking that you will be in supply when the mud hits - those rail heads in the south don't look close enough to me.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 1/8/2011 2:46:39 PM >

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Post #: 119
RE: German 1941 GC - normal - 1/8/2011 6:11:32 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Thx ;)

What is actually the difference between normal and challenging?

CharonJr

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Post #: 120
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