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RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/3/2011 3:08:26 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Thanks Miller41, alot of luck involved in getting this far. Pretty sure my strongest force attacked his weakest point in the line - plus not garrisoning the no attack line helped a bit.

I'm going to try and reinforce the 3rd Pz Grp area with XL PzKps and bring down 4th Pz Grp as soon as I can, but time is against me - frankly, I'm more concerned about reducing the Vyazma Salient than taking Moscow right now - Although I figured Scar would be throwing the kitchen sink in by now to stop progress towards Moscow and he hasn't. The Salient is a major concern as I've stripped 4th Army as much as I dare - a Girl Scout troop with sharp sticks could penetrate the line!!

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Post #: 91
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/3/2011 11:24:18 AM   
veji1

 

Posts: 1019
Joined: 7/9/2005
Status: offline 		Miller is probably right, your priority now should be troop destruction and preparation of your winter defense line, rather than territory or Moscow.

_____________________________

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Post #: 92
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/3/2011 12:12:06 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

Miller is probably right, your priority now should be troop destruction and preparation of your winter defense line, rather than territory or Moscow.


The first and only priority in 1941, IMHO, is manpower. Pockets and Manpower Centres.

If you have any chance of taking out Moscow's manpower you should take it. Even if you only hold it for a couple of turns, you will put a massive dent in the available manpower to attack you during the blizzard.

In this situation I would push as far east as I could, forget about digging in. This is not the time to give the initiative back to the soviets. Even if you were retreated 1hex per turn during the blizzard, you could still have an excellent start line for 1942.

Panzers East!!!!

_____________________________

It's only a Game


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Post #: 93
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/5/2011 1:13:00 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Decisions ! Decisions!

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 94
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/5/2011 1:34:40 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Turn 14, 18 Sep 41.

AGN's 18th and 16th Armies continue to reduce the Leningrad Pocket - netting another 16 Divisions surrendered. 16th Army's XXXXI PzKps provides the reserve against an attempted Soviet breakout, which seems less likely with each passng day. Finns continue to slowly move south to take over the line, releasing elements of 4th Pz Grp which I am trying to re-orient against the Moscow area.

18th Army will focus its effort against Leningrad proper next week, while 16th Army mops up remnants and then joins the Finns in relieving 4th Pz Grp.




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RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/5/2011 1:55:48 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		3rd Pz Grp continues to make reasonable progress in front of Moscow. I am still surprised by the lack of determined resistance in this area. Many Soviet divisions are mere shells and rout easily - others fight and hold to the last, but they are the minority. Both PzKps are fairly exhausted at this point, although panzer strength remains fairly good. XL PzKps is offloaded from the rail head and brought up to reinforce, although a Soviet attack against the northern regiment of 4th Army - although held - could prove trouble some as I have no reserves in 4th Army. Then again, if the Soviets don't withdraw from the Vyazma Salient soon - and I am able to bring some of 4th Pz Grp south, another major encirclement is in the offing.

3rd Pz Grp, reinforced with XL PzKps, will continue it's thrust south to link up with 2nd Pz Grp. As elements of 4th Pz Grp become available, it will attack toward Moscow, to the east of 3rd Pz Grp with the intent to seize the city if possible - priority remains removing the Vyazma Salient.




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Post #: 96
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/5/2011 2:05:06 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		2nd Pz Grp continues to bludgeon its way east through very determined resistance, which includes successful massed infantry attacks aganst lead German elements. Despite the HQ Supply Buildup, the Pz Grp makes little progress, although by re-orienting east instead of north, it might have penetrated through the heaviest fortifications.

Will continue to attack in an attempt to link up with 3rd Pz Grp, so it will have to re-orient north at some point. Infantry is in short supply, and 4th Army's lack of reserves is a concern.




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Post #: 97
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/5/2011 2:16:16 AM   
IdahoNYer


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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		6th Army's XXXXVI PzKps creates a breach in the Soviet lines north of Sumy - attack shifted north due to the fortifications from Sumy south. 6th Army will continue to attack east - threaten Kursk, but shift the attack SE towards Belgorod and Kharkov to potentially create another Soviet Pocket with 1st Pz Grp.

Although it's not my primary goal - if 2nd Pz Grp can not make progress north, I am considering turning 6th Army north towards Orel and link up with 2nd Pz Grp heading south. Priority is Kursk-Belgorod-Kharkov, but we'll see.




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Post #: 98
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/5/2011 2:33:03 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		AGS's attack gains momentum. The Poltava Pocket is pretty much reduced by 17th Army, yielding 20 divisions surrendered after a failed breakout attempt. Without these divisions in the line, the Soviet front disintegrates. 1st Pz Grp splits its PzKps, III PzKps threatening Kharkov and a potential link-up with 6th Army while XXXXVIII Pzkps exploits SE toward Stalino and the Sea of Azov. Splitting 1st Pz Grp and exploiting XXXXVIII Pzkps that far into the Soviet rear area is not without risks,as the Soviet force left along the Dniepr to the south will likely cut this spearhead off - but with 17th Army coming up fast, I'm willing to take the risk at a possible grab at Stalino. 11th Army moves quickly from their Dniepr crossing and apparently has penetrated the initial Soviet defense line established, and cut off the Crimea. Rum 4th Army will test the Crimean defenses.

Overall, did not expect this kind of success in the far south - now I have a solid opportunity to seize Kharkov and the Donets Basin.




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RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/5/2011 2:46:06 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Forces available at the end of Turn 14. Significant increase in Soviet losses since the start of Operation Shark. Might just have a chance to survive the Blizzard - Axis forces now outnumber the Soviets in all categories except aircraft!



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< Message edited by IdahoNYer -- 2/5/2011 2:49:43 AM >

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Post #: 100
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/5/2011 2:51:13 AM   
IdahoNYer


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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Losses:




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RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/5/2011 5:48:00 AM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		As spectacular as the German success has been, the clock is ticking towards mud and as stretched out as you are, its gonna likely hurt. Leningrad needs to be knocked down to the point to where the Finns are officially in. Right now, those south of the no move line are losing moral every turn and will continue to lose moral until the situation in Leningrad is resolved. I also think they have supply issues, but not sure on that.

If you can also somehow get Vyazma cleaned up soon, then the question becomes what do you do for a snow offensive for the 3 turns before blizzard since Moscow is oh so close. I think you have to set up for it and even if he takes it back, it still reduced his available replacements and all those rail lines have to be repaired coming into Moscow, which takes even more time.

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Post #: 102
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/5/2011 9:30:29 AM   
krupp_88mm


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Status: offline 		congratulations on the encirclements, although considering how badly the germans are screwed in this game i still think you may need to press him as hard as you can, even if your taking 1-2 or 1-3 losses id say hit him EVERYWHERE you can with max force, because when winter comes hell be getting 1-1 however if you can bring his casualties up just enough you should be able to hold especially with the finns to back you up

also i duno looks like its going to take too much time to close the vyazma pocket you need to press everything you have thier even if it means abandoning your lines i think

good luck

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 103
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/10/2011 4:10:16 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Turn 15, 25 Sep.

After 3 months of summer campaigning, its time to begin transitioning to prepare for the winter. The primary objective of the summer campaign, Leningrad, is about to fall.

18th Army cleared the Russians from the southern bank of the Neva River, and are now prepared to finish off the remaining defenders of Leningrad proper in the next two weeks. Totenkopf and the L Korps w/3xIN Div are detached and are proceeding by rail to AGC. 18th Army retains 3xKorps to secure the remaining portions of Leningrad, against what appears to be remnants. I estimate this will take another two weeks.

16th Army finished off the last of the isolated Soviet formations near Novgorod, netting 10 divisions in the process. XXXXI PzKps, reduced to 1xPz, 1xIN, and Mot Bde is the first formation to move toward the eastern line with the Finns, will act as a reserve and counterattack force. The remainder of 16th Army will relieve the remaining portion of 4th Pz Grp (which is now moving toward Moscow) and 9th Army, which will allow it to move south as well. With luck, they can be in position before mud hits.




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(in reply to krupp_88mm)
Post #: 104
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/10/2011 4:39:04 AM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		Do those Russian airbases have any aircraft on them? If they do, bombing the snot out of them may be beneficial as I believe he can't transfer air units there since they are isolated. The bases will warp I think, but anything not flying will be toast.

Excellent job on Leningrad. Just a reminder to garrison your cities.

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Post #: 105
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/10/2011 5:06:14 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		I keep expecting Scar to pull out of the Vyazma Salient, but instead he launched spoiling attacks against the weakly held perimeter - one near Rzhev and one due west against 4th Army. Both attacks are quickly contained and pushed back to their start lines.

To reduce the salient, 3rd Pz Grp infantry attacks widening the gap in the north, just in case of a counterattack against 9th Army, as well as allowing a bit more mobility for XL PzKps and following about a week behind, 4th Pz Grp panzers.

LVII PzKps opens the main attack with its 7th Pz attacking toward Moscow, pushing the defenders back about 10 miles in a 30 mile corridor to widen the overall corridor and also, just as importantly, to put pressure directly on Moscow - which isn't very well defended at the moment. The remainder of the LVII PzKps push south, gaining about 30-40 miles against weak to moderate resistance - few fortifications and few troops. XXXIX PzKps attacks similarly on the western side of the corridor and make similar progress, but the PzKps is a bit more fatigued. XL PzKps is not committed after being brought up, it just does not have enough movement points to initiate combat.

If clear weather holds, 4th Pz Grp's two PzKps will commit on the eastern side of the corridor to threaten Moscow from the north. LVI PzKps will be in position to commit next week, the XIV Pzkps not for another two weeks. Probably a few weeks too late....




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Post #: 106
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/10/2011 5:22:51 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Guderian is finally able to make some headway in his attack!

Opening up with two borrowed infantry divisions from 4th Army, key Soviet positions are pushed back. This provides XXXXVIII PzKps some elbow room, and it attacks on a narrow 30 mile frontage against heavily concentrated Soviet infantry formations - but not heavily fortified positions. With the aid of Luftwaffe airstrikes, the progress is slow but sure, eventually tearing a hole in the Russian lines. XXIV PzKps attacks into the breach, and finds some running room - Kaluga is very surprisingly found unoccupied (although fortified to level 3!!). Lead divisions establish a corridor and linkup with 3rd Pz Grp attacking from the north - the Vyazma Pocket is formed!




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Post #: 107
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/10/2011 5:39:03 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		If we manage to hold the corridor, the Vyazma Pocket has the potential to be the largest pocket of the campaign, with an estimated 50+ divisions encircled. This includes the major troop concentrations encountered by 2nd Pz Grp, with much less combat power deployed on the eastern side screening Tula. While Moscow is obviously going to be defended heavily, there have been far less troops encountered than expected, a mere 30 miles from the Kremlin.

The key is whether or not the Soviets can gather enough troops and tanks to launch an effective relief effort and cut the corridor - a minimum of 30 miles wide at the narrowest. Even if cut, two PzKps (the XL and LVI PzKps) are available for immediate countert attack.

While Moscow is a very tempting prize right now, the priority is maintaining, then eliminating the Vyazma Pocket.





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RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/10/2011 5:59:43 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		AGS manages its own pocket - the Sumy Pocket. Again, I expected Scar to pull back his forces toward Kursk, but instead he held firm. This allowed 6th Army's XXXXVI PzKps and 1st Pz Grp's III PzKps to encircle about 15 Divs in the vicinity of Sumy. In addition, III PzKps, along with arriving 17th Army infantry, threatens Kharkov on three sides.

I'm taking risk with 2nd Army, which is very week from Bryansk south, but I do not think Scar is going to launch anything major due west at this point. The Sumy Pocket's chance of relief is extremely slim at this point - there just doesn't appear to be much troops concentrated near Kursk, Belgorod, or even Kharkov at this point.

1st Pz Grp will need some rest and reorganization at this point - it is short XXXXVIII PzKps which is heading south to the Sea of Azov. I will try and pull the panzers back for a rest, but not sure if that is really feasible if I want to take those three cities before mud hits.




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Post #: 109
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/10/2011 6:11:44 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Further south, the Soviets abondon the last positions on the Dniepr Bend and race east. XXXXVIII PzKps attempts to seize Stalino and cut them off, but loses the race - and is now very much exposed and ripe for counter attack. Hungarian Mobile Corps provides the vangard of 17th Army's advance, with infantry lagging behind just south of Kharkov. 11th Army advances due east, unable to hinder the Soviet withdrawal.

This is one area I am very over extended and vulnerable to a counter attack. If elements of the PzKps are isolated, III PzKps is too far away for immidiate help - this could be dicey if the Soviets stop running and attack!

Even further south, the two Rumanian Armies find the entrance to the Crimea fortified, and prepare to attack.




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Post #: 110
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/10/2011 6:47:56 AM   
krupp_88mm


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Status: offline 		wow amazing success, so many pockets lol, your the only one ive seen splitting up their units into regiments, i dont think its a coincidence your doing so great and have split your units up

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Post #: 111
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/11/2011 3:10:59 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Krupp - Breaking down divisions is essential for the Germans - they just don't have enough infantry! I'll take risk in 1941 and break infantry to regiments to free up some divisions to concentrate to punch a hole. If the Russians want to attack west at this point along quiet lines, go right ahead. Even the panzers need to break down when exploiting a successful attack - but there is danger here. I've had a number of regiments get pushed back by Soviet counter attacks.


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Post #: 112
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/14/2011 4:47:30 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Turn 16, 2 Oct 41

Leningrad Falls! 18th Army seizes the remaining portions of the city as Soviet resistance in the pocket crumbles. 18th Army of 3xKorps and 9xDiv are available - question is where to best employ them? Not sure on this yet.....

16th Army moves into the line, replacing 4th Pz Grp. XXXXI PzKps becomes the general reserve for the northern forces.

Finnish forces begin limited attacks to tie down Soviet forces. No real intent to gain ground, but rather to keep Soviet units committed in the this area.




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Post #: 113
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/14/2011 5:09:18 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		In front of Moscow, 4th Pz Grp's lead Pzkps, the LVI PzKps passes forward of 9th Army infantry and attacks toward the Russian capital from the north, meeting light resistance. XIV Pzkps moves as fast as it can to join the attack before mud. 9th Army will be re-assigned to AGN, and will asssist in the attack as its forces are relieved by 16th Army to its north.

Southwest of Moscow, 3rd PzGrp began a limited attack with XL and XXXIX PzKps to widen the corridor securing the Vyazma Pocket. Instead, they find weak defenses and move rapidly toward Moscow from the south. 12th Pz moves up to the banks of the Moskva River meeting few defending forces; with all of 51 remaining panzers, it could roll into an undefended Moscow!

I'm very surprised at this development - my panzers are stretched and exhausted, and most of my infantry is busily reducing the Vyazma Pocket - yet Moscow is practically an Open City!!! I never thought I could grab Moscow, let alone without a prolonged difficult fight, yet here it is, on an open platter.... The question is whether I can push enough pressure on what is left of the defenses to take the city before mud its any turn now - especially with variable weather, I don't know exactly what to expect in the forecast.

In any case, L Korps, just arriving from outside Leningrad, to 4th Army, along with 3rd Pz Grp infantry will batter down the Vyzama Pocket. Until this is done, the PzKps are on there own to isolate, and take Moscow!




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Post #: 114
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/14/2011 5:18:42 AM   
Ketza


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Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		Just wow...

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Post #: 115
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/14/2011 5:21:59 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		South of Moscow, with the Vyazma Pocket established and 3rd Pz Grp expanding the corridor, 2nd Pz Grp shifts its attack from Moscow, toward the ESE and Tula. XXXXVII Pzkps attacks just south of Kaluga, north of the fortified "Bryansk Line" against a freshly arrived Guards Division. Despite heroic resistance, the Guards are overwhelmed, and the breach is made. 17th Pz Div exploits through the breach and takes an undefended Tula! XXIV PzKps is able to disengage all but one division oriented toward Moscow, and moves in behind XXXXVII Pzkps, securing the penetration.

Tula was a surprise gift as it was not defended. I intended just to flank his fortifications, but instead achieved a major breakthrough. Like 3rd Pz Grp to the north however, 2nd Pz Grp has little infantry available until the Vyzama Pocket is reduced.




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Post #: 116
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/14/2011 5:32:04 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Further south, AGS also continues to have success, albiet not quite as dramatic as AGC and AGN. 6th Army infantry focuses on reducing the Sumy Pocket, while its XXXXVI PzKps moves to outflank Soviet defenders near Kursk. 1st Pz Grp's III PzKps takes Belgorod and awaits XXXXVIII Pzkps moving up from near the Sea of Azov. Kharkov is left to 17th Army infantry.

Once the Sumy pocket is reduced, and if good weather remains (or perhaps once the snow falls), AGS will.....




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Post #: 117
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/14/2011 5:43:59 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Launch a major attack northwards to link up with 2nd Pz Grp attacking south - the objective to cut off the Orel-Bryansk Salient and seize Voronezh.

I realize the clock is ticking closer and closer to the feared Blizzard, but I can't pass up attempting to cut this salient off if Scar remains in these positions. This will likely have to wait until after mud, but the snow immediately afterward would provide an opportunity.




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Post #: 118
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/14/2011 5:53:09 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Even further south, XXXXVIII PzKps is not counterattacked, but it can not seize the Stalino area either. So it is withdrawn northwards back towards Belgorod. 17th Army comes close to isolating Kharkov, and the city will likely fall in the coming weeks. 17th Army is streched however, as its troops come into the line from advancing from the Dniepr. To the south, 11th Army advances to contact with Soviet troops withdrawing towards the Stalino area. From Kharkov to the Sea of Azov, AGS will transition to the defensive and prepared for winter.

Only against the Crimea will AGS maintain pressure as the Rum 4th Army, augmented by 4x Ger Divs, attacks the fortifications on the northern entrance to the Crimea.




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Post #: 119
RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar - 2/18/2011 3:40:34 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
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From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Turn 18, Oct 16, 1941.

First turn of mud.

Well, the panzers got close to Moscow before mud hit, but not quite close enough. Even without the mud, the two Pz Grps are stretched a bit too thin to push on. 18th Army is still moving toward the front from Leniningrad by rail. 16th Army has not relieved 9th Army yet. 4th Army is still largely occupied by finishing off the Vyazma Pocket - there is just not enough infantry available yet.

With mud, nothing is moving quickly. This will give the Russians a badly needed breather, and a chance to put some meat into their defenses. Right now, he is very, very weak in and around Moscow.

Once the frost hits, I may be able to take the city. Of course, that will be at the expense of putting alot of preparation into a blizzard defense.

Anyway, that's the plan.




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