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Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/5/2011 10:26:38 PM   
rtb1017

 

Posts: 63
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Status: offline 		Someone mentioned adopted this defense and doing it 2-3 deep. How do you get this depth of defense at least infront of Moscow as the Germans without breaking up divisions into regiments.

I am preparing for the blizzard Red Stom in 3-4 turns.
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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/5/2011 10:31:32 PM   
karonagames


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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		I think you will probably need to see a screenshot - a picture speaks a thousand words etc. to see whether he used double hex or single hex spacing.

I am sure many different tactics will evolve, and I'd certainly be interested in seeing a German "Checker board"

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/5/2011 10:33:53 PM   
notenome

 

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Status: offline 		As attrition is my worse enemy in winter 41, Im planning on my German GC to adopt a village checkerboard.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/5/2011 10:45:57 PM   
karonagames


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Status: offline 		There is merit in that, but it will depend on whether the AI can work out a way to isolate the villages/towns, and then rout the defenders. Routing is not good. It sounds like the AI may not have figured out how to deal with an Axis checkerboard, but as a human I would use cavalry and tank brigades to get through/behind the checkerboard.

I'll be interested to see how it pans out.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/5/2011 11:06:17 PM   
rtb1017

 

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Status: offline 		How about the Heinrici approach during Seelow 45. He anticipated the attack and fell back a fefw miles to prepared dug in positions so the Soviets artillery baragge and assault hit an empty pillow. I was wondering of doing this with fortified regions to saok up Soviet MP's and lessen the impact of the wave on the main line.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/5/2011 11:18:34 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtb1017

How about the Heinrici approach during Seelow 45. He anticipated the attack and fell back a fefw miles to prepared dug in positions so the Soviets artillery baragge and assault hit an empty pillow. I was wondering of doing this with fortified regions to saok up Soviet MP's and lessen the impact of the wave on the main line.


Bad idea; you'll lose piles of manpower as the fortified regions are destroyed. The AI kills all Fortified Regions that aren't covered, and some that are.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/5/2011 11:38:19 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		Pulling back a hex each turn into a hex you fortified might be a good strategy. I'm going to try some thus far untried strategies in my game with notenome. Bob's linebacker strategy has its merits, but in my opinion it results in too many battles being lost as holding a line with in many cases weak divisions naturally results in both more losses and more lost battles.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:22:11 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		I'm the one who wrote about a 2-to-3 unit deep line in Winter 41. I don't want to oversell it: it wasn't a COMPLETE double/triple line along the entire front, and in most cases, that third line was just fortified regions building up defenses to fall back to.

The following posts will include my screengrabs of Turn 24 (the first winter turn in 41) and Turn 42 (the first mud turn in 42) to show where my line started, and where it ended.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:25:14 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		Here is AGN on Turn 24.

Note the salient along the Volkhov-- I actually pulled back from further north to more defensible positions maximizing my interior lines. My hope was to keep enough of this to launch an offensive to the Finnish border in 1942 (which I did, successfully, after redeploying 2nd Panzer Army to support).

Note the backup forts when you get to the south. Single line here, but the forts build up reserve locations for retreats.

Note that a number of units are already set to static.




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< Message edited by Davekhps -- 1/6/2011 4:27:51 AM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:29:26 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		Northern half of AGC on Turn 24. You'll begin to see the double line with 9th and 4th Armies, backed up by forces from 2nd Panzer Army and fortified regions. Since the start of the mud turns my panzers are further than 10 hexes from the front set on refit to build back up to act as a mobile reserve during the Soviet winter attacks.




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< Message edited by Davekhps -- 1/6/2011 4:31:27 AM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:32:20 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		Southern half of AGC and northern half of AGS, turn 24.

Not as rigid a set up as up north-- I have weaker Italian and Hungarian forces here, so I've set up so strong points with multiple units to dig in faster. If my first lines are forced to retreat, they'll have some hedgehogs to fall back on.

Note also that my most of my panzers are deeper behind the line acting as mobile reserves.




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< Message edited by Davekhps -- 1/6/2011 4:34:51 AM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:35:21 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		Southern half of AGS, turn 24.

Here I'm a little greedy, and hence bolder. I didn't do as well in the south in 1941 as I had hoped, so I'd really like to hold onto Dnepreopotrovsk. I don't expect the Romanians to be worth the pixels their CVs are printed on, but I figure that if the Soviets advance too deeply, I'll be able to flank them from the north come spring, bagging a lot of forces.

As you will see, I was a little optimistic here.




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< Message edited by Davekhps -- 1/6/2011 4:37:43 AM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:37:17 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Interesting. Dunno how this would play out in PBEM context. I'd be throwing cav at all those gaps.



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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:39:01 AM   
Davekhps

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Interesting. Dunno how this would play out in PBEM context. I'd be throwing cav at all those gaps.




It wouldn't. This is clearly a "bad habit" defense for the AI. It'd slow down the cav at best-- ideally, I think the only thing going for me is keeping the panzers deep enough to counter infiltrations.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:40:24 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		Alright, Turn 42. Winter is over, this is the first spring mud turn. (At the end, I'll post the strengths and losses for turns 24 and 42)

AGN situation. I've been pushed back hard around Leningrad. I've kept the fort in Novgorod, even assigning it arty SU and making it part of 18th Army. (Ditto Velikie Luki in the 9th Army sector). My salient along the Volkhov was much reduced, but some of it held.

I've pulled back 4th Panzer Army to refit during the mud turns. Later, I'll redirect 2nd Panzer Army up north. I'll eventually succeed in reaching the Finnish border and isolating Leningrad-- but not before September 1942!




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< Message edited by Davekhps -- 1/6/2011 4:43:36 AM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:44:06 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		North half of AGC, Turn 42.

*Here* is where the lines have been pressed hard-- and my defensive plan paid off. I lost ground around Vyazma and Bryansk, but suffered no breakthroughs. With my lines shortened and reinforcements arriving, I've been able to form solid lines.

Again, a human player would eat me alive. Against the AI, it was a near-run thing, but it worked.




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< Message edited by Davekhps -- 1/6/2011 4:47:00 AM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:48:06 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		Southern half of AGC and north half of AGS, Turn 42.

I gave ground around Sumy, kept Poltava and Dnepepotrovsk. But, in the last turns of winter, the Soviets moved north, creating a penetration around Cherkasy. They didn't breakthrough, however, and in the first turns of spring, I was able to cut that salient off at the base and pocket quite a few Soviet units.




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< Message edited by Davekhps -- 1/6/2011 4:50:41 AM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:51:16 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		Last map-- southern half of AGS, first spring mud turn, Turn 42.

As expected, the Romanians suffered badly. This map actually represents a better situation then after the blizzard turns-- I had lost both Odessa and Kirovgrad during the blizzard, only to retake them in the "second round" of snow turns.

Note that I've already pulled back 1st Panzer Army to refit for the spring offensive. Since I've already decided to focus (successfully) on capturing Leningrad in 1942, there won't be a repeat of Case Blue this year, but I'm able to use 1st Panzer Army to capture all the territory seen here, including Zaporozhye. Alas, the Crimea and Sevastapol won't fall until 1943, as an afterthought long after I've taken Moscow up north in my 1943 campaign.





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< Message edited by Davekhps -- 1/6/2011 4:54:58 AM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:55:39 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		The losses, Turn 24, beginning of December 1941.




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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:56:25 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		And, finally... the losses by Turn 42, April 1942.

You can see how costly Winter 1941 is for the Axis. But, thankfully, it hurts the Soviets too, and resulted in some overextensions of their lines that I will exploit in my 1942 offensives.




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< Message edited by Davekhps -- 1/6/2011 4:58:12 AM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 5:11:51 AM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		To summarize: it's not a pure checkerboard defense, nor hedgehog, but a hybrid. My advance in 1941 was rather conservative, unable to match historical gains (especially in AGS), but that left me in a less vulnerable position once the mud turns began. I found the key in those last viable 1941 turns (16 and 17) was to start planning for the mud and winter-- don't get too greedy; sketch out your defensive lines using cities, forests, swamps and rivers; and start refitting your mobile forces as winter fire brigades.

Once winter hit, I didn't use it to attack (no Operation Typhoon for me), I just used those turns to dress my frontlines and better fortify my second and third lines. Once the Soviet blizzard attacks hit, that was when the fun began, and by the second round of winter turns arrived, I was able to restore some of the ground I had lost during the blizzard before the Spring 1942 mud hit.

The Fortified Regions acted as entrenching forces in almost all cases (fortress cities like Novogorod and rear-area garrison supplements aside). When the Soviets advanced next to the FAs, I disbanded them rather than sacrifice them. Still, I lost a handful, but nothing I couldn't afford to sacrifice.

Keeping the panzers back helps tremendously. They refit better and faster, and their MP allows them to react to breakthroughs.

The frontline infantry was almost uniformly set to static. This bought me a tremendous amount of Admin Points, creating a reserve close enough to the 500 point max, and for the rest of my GC I would never go below 300 AP in my reserve. (Personally, I think this is a bit unbalanced, as for the Axis player using the static tactic for winter 1941 basically invalidates any game restrictions for AP the rest of the game-- it's simply no longer a limiting factor, there just isn't enough for an Axis player to do in later turns to burn through that huge a reserve of APs).

My air units were placed wholesale in the National Reserve during the first mud turns in 1941, me keeping only a few fighter squadrons and Junkers for resupply. I didn't miss air support during the winter-- unsure of how realistic this is gamewise-- but my air force in 1942 was far superior (and my successes in that year led to a lot less Soviet airpower in 1943-- although, again, I too noticed some pretty severe Axis air casualties in the late war, I hope more testing in 1943/44 is done to see if Soviet air is overpowered in the late war).

Anyway... I won't say it was a perfect defense against the AI, and it'd be a bad idea against a human player. BUT, the key is that it worked, my lines bent but did not break-- no T-34s driving into Warsaw!-- and with patience I ultimately achieved an instant decisive victory for the Axis in summer 1944.

So Axis players, keep warm, and happy hunting!

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 1:36:45 PM   
Singleton Mosby


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Status: offline 		That was very interesting to see. At turn 22 my situation was about the same as yours. I however did not employ a checkerboard defence and used the panzergroups as direct reserve for the frontline unit. It is now turn 32 and I am pushed back slowly but not pushed hard. I might lose Smolensk however in a turn or two. At which turn will the blizzard be over?

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 3:01:56 PM   
Davekhps

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Singleton Mosby

At which turn will the blizzard be over?


I forget off the top of my head, but using the non-random weather table, the date's listed in the manual-- I believe you'll get blizzard conditions into February, and March will be your second round of winter.

Note that my first time through, I didn't appreciate this-- that second round of winter appears to not carry any severe penalties for the Axis, i.e. it's just like that first round of winter in 1941. I didn't take full advantage of that, preferring to largely hunker down during that second round of winter (that is, until it kept dragging along and I realized, "Hey, I could be attacking here with some success, let me try it!")

Which means that an alert Axis player who has maintained adequate reserves can do much during that second round of winter turns to restore their frontline lost during the blizzard turns. You won't have time (or likely the strength) to launch any sort of grand offensives, but you'll have enough restored strength to set yourself up for a better position going into the mud turns, and ultimately the Spring 1942 campaign season.

BTW, for those Axis players shocked/depressed by the severity of the 1941-1942 blizzard, don't fret-- the later blizzard turns don't appear to be anywhere near as bad; in fact, unlike the 1941-1942 blizzard, you can actually attack and succeed, at least on a limited basis, during those 1942, 43 and 44 turns.

< Message edited by Davekhps -- 1/6/2011 3:04:30 PM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 3:40:05 PM   
karonagames


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quote:

Which means that an alert Axis player who has maintained adequate reserves can do much during that second round of winter turns to restore their frontline lost during the blizzard turns. You won't have time (or likely the strength) to launch any sort of grand offensives, but you'll have enough restored strength to set yourself up for a better position going into the mud turns, and ultimately the Spring 1942 campaign season.


This is a very important point. In my Field Marshal Noob AAR I took back on average 3 hexes along the central front, and In the south I trapped about 30 units against the Sea of Azov, and pocketed about 300k.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 3:57:06 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Davekhps


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Interesting. Dunno how this would play out in PBEM context. I'd be throwing cav at all those gaps.




It wouldn't. This is clearly a "bad habit" defense for the AI. It'd slow down the cav at best-- ideally, I think the only thing going for me is keeping the panzers deep enough to counter infiltrations.


Yea but you really shouldn't use your panzers during winter. here are the winter rules. If you try to throw your panzers in to stop a breach you're going to lose precious tanks. Pull the line back if it starts to crumble. giving up some space is easy enough to retake in the summer. It can also help you with pockets even vs PBEM. 

22.3.1.	 COMBAT VALUE MODIFICATIONS
Non-Finnish, non-mountain and non-ski Axis attacking units have their modified combat value
(CV) divided by 3 and possibly more if they fail certain leader rating checks (divided by 4 if
admin check fails, and divided by 4 if Infantry or Mech Combat rating check fails). Non-Finnish,
non-mountain and non-ski Axis defending units CV are divided by 2 and possibly by more if
they fail leader infantry or Mech combat or admin checks (Once again, divided by 4 for each
failed check). Because of these modifiers and to better reflect the unit’s current status, Axis
units will have their normal printed CV divided by three, and their defense CV divided by two,
with values rounded down. The leader checks that can reduce CV’s further will still occur, but
the printed CV values only account for the definite reduction in CV. To better reflect their impact,
the displayed CV values for Finns, Soviets, and Axis mountain and ski units are doubled during
first winter blizzard turns to account for the first winter surprise effects on other units. This is a
display item only, as the actual CV values themselves don’t change in combat.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:36:25 PM   
karonagames


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quote:

Yea but you really shouldn't use your panzers during winter. here are the winter rules. If you try to throw your panzers in to stop a breach you're going to lose precious tanks.


Very good point. You can always regain the ground - you can never get the tanks back.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 4:38:07 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I don't know. Given that many of those panzers are obsolete models anyways...

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 7:01:08 PM   
Wikingus


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Status: offline 		What would be the merits of using fortified regions and static units in the winter of 1941? I haven't used either yet. Fortified regions seem to me a bit useless, whereas I haven't really played around with static units yet.

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 7:37:06 PM   
Sabre21


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Status: offline 		I would never go static as the Germans at this point in the game. You lose your maneuverability and those units will just get surrounded and killed. Forts on the other hand I would and do use. The Germans don't have the luxury of a lot of extra units so the forts provide that although at a cost of 5 ap per.

One of the older testers..Rick, used forts very heavily and had pretty much 3 solid rows of them in the north and center. He started building his line in September. It took all i had to break the center and northern defenses. By February 42 I had breached the lines in the north and was starting to make decent headway and another turn or two the center would have been punched, but not decisively. He didn't have many forts down south where most of his armor was and that theatre was in chaos and near total rout. I nearly bagged an entire panzer army had he not slipped the noose. I was 50 miles from Rumania when we quit in Feb 42.

When I play Germans, I begin the winter defense as of turn 1 by destroying as many Soviet units as I can and keep that up until mud hits. I push hard taking as many manpower centers and do my best to keep my opponent off balance. I firmly believe a good defense is a strong offense. While I am relentless all the way until the weather changes, I do use my axis allies to begin digging in at key locations and rotate some of my divisions in such a manner as to create a defensive line while getting replenished. Forts begin popping in early so as not to be a massive drain on manpower all at once. I decide where my main line of resistance will be and then plan on going one hundred miles beyond that as a buffer. That's what you can expect a good Soviet player to take back.  

< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 1/6/2011 7:38:59 PM >

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RE: Checker Board defense in Winter GC 41 - 1/6/2011 7:54:21 PM   
Pawsy

 

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Status: offline 		I would be through those gaps, encircle for a turn and your units would surrender without much of a fight. Dont confuse what you can get away with the AI and human players.

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