RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Panzer Command: Ostfront >> RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/12/2015 8:17:02 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

So the first post says that PAK 40 only had one type of ammo available? You somehow surmise it was HE or Nb (smoke)? Therefore, there is a Pz Gr 39 shortage?

Can you explain how a Soviet report, that is using incorrect terminology of ammunition, shows that it is a PAK 40 or KWK 40 doing the shooting?

Rot coloring was used early in the was to designate "high velocity". It might also be applied to HEAT shells but not to designate high velocity.

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 121

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/12/2015 9:55:02 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

A. P. PROJECTILE WITH BALLISTIC CAP AND
PIERCING CAP, TYPE 39, 75-MM
GERMAN NOMENCLATURE: Pzgr. Patr. 39
KwK 40 (Panzergranate Patrone 39 Kampfwagenkanone
40). (See fig. 371.)
EMPLOYMENT:
7.5-cm KwK 40 (Kampfwagenkanone 40) Tank
Gun 40.
7.5-cm Stu. G. 40 (Sturm Gesch�tz 40) Assault
Gun 40.
398
PROJECTILES
7.5-cm Pak. 40 (Panzerabwehrkanone 40) Antitank
Gun 40.
COMPLETE ROUND (description of c/r is for
KwK40):
29.3 inches, over-all length.
29.4 pounds, total weight.
PROJECTILE painted black with red band and
red stenciling:
9.625 inches, over-all length, w/o tracer.
0.98 inch, distance from base to band.
0.67 inch, width of bimetallic rotating band.
2.94 inches, diameter of base.
Cyclonite bursting charge.
Tracer is present in fuze.
PETN/Wax booster.

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 9/12/2015 10:55:41 PM >

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 122

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/12/2015 10:04:15 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
So the first post says that PAK 40 only had one type of ammo available? You somehow surmise it was HE or Nb (smoke)? Therefore, there is a Pz Gr 39 shortage?

No. I assume only a few genuine Pz Gr 39 rounds available. No other armor piercing type.

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 123

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/12/2015 10:24:31 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub

A. P. PROJECTILE WITH BALLISTIC CAP AND
PIERCING CAP, TYPE 39, 75-MM
GERMAN NOMENCLATURE: Pzgr. Patr. 39
KwK 40 (Panzergranate Patrone 39 Kampfwagenkanone
40). (See fig. 371.)
EMPLOYMENT:
7.5-cm KwK 40 (Kampfwagenkanone 40) Tank
Gun 40.
7.5-cm Stu. G. 40 (Sturm Gesch�tz 40) Assault
Gun 40.
398
PROJECTILES
7.5-cm Pak. 40 (Panzerabwehrkanone 40) Antitank
Gun 40.
COMPLETE ROUND (description of c/r is for
KwK40):
29.3 inches, over-all length.
29.4 pounds, total weight.
PROJECTILE painted black with red band and
red stenciling:
9.625 inches, over-all length, w/o tracer.
0.98 inch, distance from base to band.
0.67 inch, width of bimetallic rotating band.
2.94 inches, diameter of base.
Cyclonite bursting charge.
Tracer is present in fuze.
PETN/Wax booster.

OK, but all Pz Gr 39 had a 17 gram bursting charge. Compare the chamber size in fig 371 to the one in either 376, 383 or 405.

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 124

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/12/2015 11:33:14 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

Uh, the point is that you have created this out of very weak and secondary sources. The translation of the Soviet test summary is not even right or complete. And many people have pointed out mistakes in those US documents.

I am not sure I even understand your theory. Do you believe the weak L24 rounds would work at the actual high velocities? Against sloped armor? Do you not see an issue mixing the ammunition types?

There is some very interesting information regarding German ammunition supply in 1942. Perhaps the most astonishing is the amount of Panther rounds manufactured over a half year before Kursk started. The amount of all types was actually fully ramped up by Kursk. Did the Soviet testing, in 1944 no less, really think that those L24 rounds were being used in anything but the halftracks/armored cars by that time?

Personally, I have my doubts that the L24 ammunition was produced in such great numbers early in the war. The Panzer IV was actually a low production vehicle. It was actually a low production vehicle in 1942. The StuG III probably had more L43 installations in 1942.

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 9/13/2015 12:38:20 AM >

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 125

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/12/2015 11:37:05 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
So the first post says that PAK 40 only had one type of ammo available? You somehow surmise it was HE or Nb (smoke)? Therefore, there is a Pz Gr 39 shortage?

No. I assume only a few genuine Pz Gr 39 rounds available. No other armor piercing type.

The PAK 40 had very few PzGr 40 rounds, and the KWK 40 and StuK 40 actually had many more. All types had quite a number of HEAT rounds produced. This might be because the higher velocity PAK 40 could use PzGr 39 to better effect.

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 126

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/13/2015 12:35:33 AM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
Uh, the point is that you have created this out of very weak and secondary sources. The translation of the Soviet test summary is not even right or complete. And many people have pointed out mistakes in those US documents.

I am not sure I even understand your theory. Do you believe the weak L24 rounds would work at the actual high velocities? Against sloped armor? Do you not see an issue mixing the ammunition types?

For the name 75mm M.38 take a look at the top of page 409 in the US TM. The short 75mm AP round is listed as "Pzgr. Patr. (KWK 38).
I don't know if that round could have been used as is in the Model 40 cannon. If it could not then what may have happened is a field mod. Read about the Cairo Tests and how thousands of captured German 75mm AP rounds were modified to be fired in the US 75mm.
No, the weak L24 rounds would not work very well. I have a graph of the penetration difference between the Pzgr 39 and early AP and the weak round doesn't increase its penetration at higher velocities.

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 127

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/13/2015 12:59:18 AM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

I actually was just wondering how they got the strange nomenclature. The Germans marked the shells pretty clearly. Since they used an antitank gun, not a tank gun as Archive Awareness says, it might be possible they were using a 7.62cm converted piece. This actually had a early large HE armor piercing round and a later smaller (17 g) HE filled AP round. The large HE filler was 80 g. The Germans produced ammunition, including tungsten rounds, in large quantities for these weapons. I see no reason why they would shoot at 30 meters. It would be great to get the full actual report.

I believe that the "Cairo Tests" were also done at Aberdeen. Basically, a crappy early German APHE should have shown the Allies that they were behind the curve.

Edit: The Germans marked the cartridges with the weapon that would use it. In fact, the Germans did not differentiate between the different (L43 and L48) weapons. They would mark the ammunition KWK 40/StuK 40 and that ammo was delivered to those weapons. I would bet the end users were fully aware what all the other markings meant. The PzGr 39 projectile did have slightly different versions (ausfuhrung), but this dealt with materials used for the sealing of rifling, etc. Some claim there is a solid core design in addition to the two piece welded design.

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 9/13/2015 2:37:05 AM >

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 128

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/13/2015 1:56:01 AM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

SUBJECT: Ammunition APG 5886/15
TITLE: First Partial Report on German 7.5 cm
A.P.-H.E., C&B.C, Ammunition
IDENTIFICATION: Fifteenth Report on Ordnance
Program No. 5886
DATE OF REPORT: 5 June 1943
ORIGIN: Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland
PURPOSE: To study captured German 7.5 cm,
C7-7 SECRET
CONFIDENTIAI AMMUNITION
AP, HE, C, and BC ammunition
METHOD: The ammunition and its components
were examined forphysical and metallurgical characteristics.
The various markings on a complete
round of the ammunition were interpreted. Puncticming
of the various components was explained.
The rotating bands of 44 of the German projectiles
were modified to fit U.S. tank and field guns.
British modifications and trials of the projectiles
were described. Studies were made of theprojectile
at Aberdeen with respect to armor piercing qualities,
fuse functioning, and spaced armor methods
of defeating it.
DESCRIPTION: The captured German 7.5 cm, AP,
HE, C and BC ammunition was received from the
Middle East Theatre of Operation in good condition.
Ninety-two rounds came as complete rounds
packed in two-round German ammunition carriers.
Forty-four projectiles complete with fuze, tracer,
and HE filler, came packed in improvised wooden
crates. This ammunition was used by the Germans
in their old Model 7.5 cm, short barrel tank gun
mounted on the German P3KW IV tank.
CONCLUSIONS: Based on a limitednumber of firing
tests, the ammunition was found to be interchangeable
with U.S. ammunition if the rotating
band was modified. However, the tests were not extensive
enough to prove safe interchangeability.
The German projectile was superior to the U.S.
75min, M61 APC projectile in penetrating 3-lnch
rolled homogeneous armor at a 20� obliquity, but
was inferior to the same U.S. projectile in penetrating
3-lnch face hardened armor at a 20�
obliquity. The fuze functioning of the German
projectile was very regular. As the obliouity of an
arrangement of 1-inch face hardened over 2-inch
homogeneous armor was Increased, the relative effectiveness
of the German projectile over the
U.S. M61 APC projectile Increased. The projectile
was defeated at velocities up to 1944 f/s by spaced
armor arrangement 01 1-inch face hardened plate
10 inches in front of 1-3/4-inch face hardened plate
at 30�.
GENERAL: This 74-page report contains 29 photographs
of the German projectiles and the effects
of firing the projectiles.

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 129

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/13/2015 3:37:31 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub

I actually was just wondering how they got the strange nomenclature. The Germans marked the shells pretty clearly. Since they used an antitank gun, not a tank gun as Archive Awareness says, it might be possible they were using a 7.62cm converted piece. This actually had a early large HE armor piercing round and a later smaller (17 g) HE filled AP round. The large HE filler was 80 g. The Germans produced ammunition, including tungsten rounds, in large quantities for these weapons. I see no reason why they would shoot at 30 meters. It would be great to get the full actual report.

See post #39 for what marking mean. (If you read German)

As you stated the US TM on German ammo has a few error. (But, that comes with original souces.) Some is because the authors see the accumulated ammo after the war. They list three different types of large cavity AP for the short 75mm where the Germans only have one. http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/geschossringbuch.pdf

This is probably because the paint scheme changed during the war and some of the marking. You indicated the red band meant that it was higher power. They probably didn�t put that on the short 75mm shell manufactured after the more powerful 75mm guns came out.

I don�t know what the M.38 was that the Russians were firing in the model 40 75mm gun but it apparently had a 80 gram charge and could penetrate the armor of their mock up. It was either an unaltered short 75mm shell or the projectile from a short 75mm shell afixed to a more powerful cartridge of some other kind of 75mm round. The Russians seemed to conclude it was the main cause of the fuel tank explosions.

Here is a snipett from a document about a different test posted on the AA site that states the MV of the Pak 40. It may have nothing to do with the other test but it is about the same time frame.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mobius -- 9/13/2015 4:53:58 PM >

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 130

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/13/2015 4:21:18 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

I would like to know if the Germans actually ceased the manufacture of the 7,5 cm AP for the L24 guns during the war. Most reports say that these remaining weapons used HEAT.

Here is an accounting of the German ammunition stocks. I just cut and pasted 75mm/76.2mm, note at this time that Panzer IV were all 7,5cm L43 and L24. StuG would be 7,5cm L24/L43/L48.

Ammunition, November 1, 1942 in thousands

75 mm

� 7,5 cm Kw K (all ammunition types): 2841.5
� 7,5 cm Sprgr Patr 34 (7,5 cm Kw K 40 and Stu K 40): 498.4
� 7,5 cm Gr Patr 38 Hl (7,5 cm Kw K 40 and Stu K 40): 412.8
� 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 39 (7,5 cm Kw K 40 and Stu K 40): 747.6
� 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 40 (7,5 cm Kw K 40 and Stu K 40): 22.1
� 7,5 cm Gr Patr Nb (7,5 cm Kw K 40 and Stu K 40): 22.6

� 7,5 cm Sprgr Patr 42 (7,5 cm Kw K 42): 458.8
� 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 39/42 (7,5 cm Kw K 42): 341.9
� 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 40/42 (7,5 cm Kw K 42): 3.1

� 7,5 cm Sprgr Patr 34 (7,5 cm Pak 40): 533.1
� 7,5 cm Gr Patr 38 Hl (7,5 cm Pak 40): 917.6
� 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 39 (7,5 cm Pak 40): 945.3
� 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 40 (7,5 cm Pak 40): 1.7
� 7,5 cm K Gr rot Nb (7,5 cm Pak 40): 30.3

� 7,5 cm Sprgr Patr 41 (7,5 cm Pak 41): 25.2
� 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 41 H K (7,5 cm Pak 41): 63.3
� 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 41 St K (7,5 cm Pak 41): 0
� 7.5 cm Pzgr Patr (W) (7,5 cm Pak 41): 0

� Sprgr Patr f�r Pak 97/38: 5612.9
� 7,5 cm Gr Patr Hl f�r 7,5 cm Pak 97/38: 1464.9
� 7,5 cm Rf K 43: 0

76.2 mm

� 7,62 cm Sprgr Patr 39 (7,62 cm Pak 36 and F K 39): 1042.4
� 7,62 cm Pzgr Patr 39 rot (7,62 cm Pak 36 and F K 39): 476.5
� 7,62 cm Pzgr Patr 40 (7,62 cm Pak 36 and F K 39): 77.8

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 9/13/2015 5:29:22 PM >

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 131

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/13/2015 9:14:02 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
Ammunition, November 1, 1942 in thousands
75 mm
� 7,5 cm Gr Patr 38 Hl (7,5 cm Kw K 40 and Stu K 40): 412.8

� 7,5 cm Gr Patr 38 Hl (7,5 cm Pak 40): 917.6

They certainly have a lot of that crap, unless it's Hl/B or Hl/C.
http://stugiii.com/sturmartillerie/maingun.html

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 132

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/15/2015 4:24:15 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

Well maybe they would have made more...but they had to make...

37mm Stielgr 41 (3,7 cm Pak): 998.8

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 133

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/17/2015 1:35:47 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

As far as primary resources, I consider the German's own documentation to be more reliable than interpreted forms the allies produced. An interesting note is that late war vehicles had document lists of manuals and bulletins that went with their weapons. A weapon system such as a 7,5cm PAK 40 armored car, 234/4 had specific documents called out.

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 134

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/17/2015 5:38:29 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

Yes, the original German documents are more authoritative but they aren't available to all. And often the data one is looking for is buried deep in the document. So letting others sort through it is more practical. Plus the surviving data is spotty.

http://www.lexpev.nl/manuals/germanyold.html

Has anyone ever found a surviving Panzer Mark IV Manual?

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 135

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/17/2015 6:10:43 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

I will find the link to the book, but the 234/4 uses the summer 1942 document as far as ammunition.

We can probably do a list of all the documents known regarding these weapons. This includes some bulletins.

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 136

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/17/2015 6:53:34 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

Well, there is a list of documents I'd like to get a copy of. They supposedly are in a
in museum or ministry in Berlin.

quote:

Titel: Schu�tafeln f�r die 85-mm-Panzerkanone 44 Welche Werksnamen sind �hnlich?
Untertitel: DV-23/7
Verlag: Ministerium f. Nationale Verteidigg Welche Werke stammen aus demselben Verlag?
Ort: Berlin
Jahr: 1960

"Schu�tafeln f�r die 100-mm-Panzerkanone"
Die Ver�ffentlichung mit dem Titel Schu�tafeln f�r die 100-mm-Panzerkanone, DV-23/8, wurde im Jahr

1960 in Berlin durch den Verleger Verlag d. Ministeriums f. Nation. Verteidigg publiziert. Die
Ver�ffentlichung ist ein einb�ndiges Werk mit der Kennung 72321903. Die Ver�ffentlichung ist
verfasst in Deutscher Sprache. Das Werk besteht aus 136 Seiten.

"Schu�tafeln f�r die 100-mm-Panzerkanone"
Das Buch mit der Bezeichnung Schu�tafeln f�r die 100-mm-Panzerkanone, DV-23/8, wurde im Jahre 1965
in Berlin durch den Verleger Ministerium f. Nationale Verteidigg publiziert. Es handelt sich um
ein einb�ndiges Werk mit der Kennziffer 72321911. Das Buch hat 168 Seiten.

"Schu�tafeln f�r die 76 -mm -Panzerkanone D-56 TM und D-56T"
Das Werk mit der Bezeichnung Schu�tafeln f�r die 76 -mm -Panzerkanone D-56 TM und D-56T, DV.-23/9,
wurde im Jahr 1966 in Berlin durch den Verleger Ministerium f. nationale Verteidigung gedruckt. Es
handelt sich um ein Einzelband mit der Kennnummer 72321931. Das Werk hat 132 Seiten.

They are DDR tables of Soviet WWII guns, in use by the DDR during the cold war.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 9/17/2015 8:00:38 PM >

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 137

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/18/2015 3:16:35 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

Maybe tough to find, but not impossible.

I think there are multiple German sources as far as the PAK 40. I have taken screenshots and hopefully can timeline them. There is a interesting clue about the supposed velocity reduction, but it is not what people have been saying!

Some interesting points about the PAK 40. It was tested in the 'Yugo Tests' with remanufactured ammunition. That is, even the Germans had shelf life (1 year I beleive) on storing completed rounds. The basic issue is the powder. The Yugo tests were reworked with US powder charges. The 88mm may also have been reworked. I read the US took mass quantities of 88mm after the war.

The PAK 40 had extremely small amounts of stocked PzGr 40 rounds in November 1942, more on this later. The Germans actually made the cores (bolts) in massive quantities. So, as far as recalling tungsten, there are two forms. One is from actual manufactured cartridges, two is the stocks of cores. But there is another element to this story.

The PAK 40 had large amounts of HEAT ammunition. This may have been as a nod to the Soviets and other Allies continuing to field light armor. But, as most soldiers know, they would use what gives the quickest and most assured kill as possible.

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 138

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/19/2015 2:40:45 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
Some interesting points about the PAK 40. It was tested in the 'Yugo Tests' with remanufactured ammunition. That is, even the Germans had shelf life (1 year I beleive) on storing completed rounds. The basic issue is the powder. The Yugo tests were reworked with US powder charges.

There is missing info. We don't know what the velocity was.
Though one data point in comparison is that in the yugo test the Pak40 M39 penetrated the glacis of a T-34 up to 1300m while in a soviet test of Pak 40 V0=770m/s PzGr39 penetrated the glacis of a T-34 at 1000m but not at 1100m. Though Russian and yugo had different ways of determining penetration.

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 139

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/19/2015 4:03:38 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

As far as the PAK 40, it had initial ammunition documentation summer of 1942. Please note that ammunition manufacture (in quantities) preceded the initial documentation. The engineering GMT drawings, of course, preceded the manufacture. The Panther ammunition shows this also. Great quantities are stocked already in November 1942, initial documentation for the ammunition is early 1943. I will edit in the references (EDIT)

PzGr 39 7,5cm projectiles (and the very similar Panther projectile) are among the top three EOD finds for German ammunitions. The Germans made them in great quantities and they were fired from many weapon systems. The KWK 40 and StuK 40 and PAK 40 and Hetzer and JgPnz all were consumers of the projectile. I recently saw an engineering drawing of a PzGr 39 7,5cm 'subcaliber' projectile that was to be fired out of a 10,5cm weapon. I don't know if this was ever produced in quantity, but it would be of great benefit to the 10,5cm StuH weapon system. Basically getting good velocity and accuracy compared to HEAT.

In any case, the PAK 40 documentation initially shows the powder weight to be 2.75 Kg in summer of 1942. This is for the PzGr 39 round. There is documentation for December (Dez) 1942 showing the same powderweight. Documentation for summer of 1944 shows the same powerweight. The documentation lists for late war vehicles that mount the PAK 40 show these documents being designated. I do not believe anyone has shown any other instance of the powderweight changing for the PzGr 39 round for the PAK 40. The German velocity is stated as 790 M/s. Non-German testing shows other velocities, with the US showing 776 M/s averaged. Soviets supposedly have 770 M/s. I would challenge the age and care of the ammunition before they even tested it. I do not think anyone has the actual test reports either. It is mostly just the results that people seem to cite. Very important criteria and conditions seem unknown or cared about.

The US tested the German weapons initially encountered in North Africa. They would then have access to weapons from Sicily and then Italy before getting weapons from Normandy. The GErmans did have 'tropical' ammunition and marked it as such (Fur Tropen). A real engineering test would have captured this as well as many other data points.

I will stop here and see what I can post as fara s links and other screenshots. Feel free to comment on the above.

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 9/19/2015 5:06:18 PM >

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 140

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/19/2015 8:30:03 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

In 1943 the US introduced measuring shell velocity using the chronograph. I don't know what was used before and how accurate were the measurements.

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 141

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/19/2015 10:17:00 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
Re: PaK 40:
Documentation for summer of 1944 shows the same powerweight.

Do you have this document?
I'd like to see the charge data.

Because look at post #20 this thread.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 9/19/2015 11:40:36 PM >

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 142

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/19/2015 10:41:28 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

Why is this website not allowing web links or uploading pics?

I don't follow you about post #20?

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 9/19/2015 11:44:47 PM >

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 143

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/19/2015 10:49:27 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

Yes, zeroing would be a problems. The Germans regularly zeroed their guns. But if the nerfed ammo was introduced after a certain date then all replacement ammo after that had the same ballistics. Guns in places where there was no fighting probably had the old ammo and never got the new type.

Is this post 20? It doesn't make sense considering the amount of ammunition that was in stock. Ammunition that is produced takes time to travel to the front. You are speculating at best.

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 144

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/19/2015 11:00:40 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Boozername

The 'powder bag', that is the silk bag that is inside the cartridge that holds the powder, also has info printed on it. As an example, a 75mmL48 bag...

7.5 cm StuK 40
7.5cm KWK 40
2.51 Kg
Digl RP....etc
ktz 1943/27
Son 23.6.44

This calls out the ammo as used in 75mmL48 tank and assault guns, powder weight, powder type,
powder manufacture date, and manufacturer code and finally the manufacture date. Noteworthy is the nearly a year between powder manufacture and the shell being made.

The website is www....

wk2ammo.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5646&d=1171751156

AND...just to be absolutely clear...It was made on June 23, 1944...The powder was made the 27th week of 1943.

So, as far as German documentation regarding KWK 40/StuK 40 weapons, there is the initial summer 1942 and also the October 1944 Merkblatts. The 1942 shows the initial charge was 2.43 Kg and the 1944 charge is INCREASED to 2.5 Kg. I find it preposterous that it was nerfed or reduced for anything but the documented 'Fur Tropen' hot climate.

There is just one Merkblatt for the PAK 40 (1942) and it is referenced for all weapons that use it...PAK, SP and even the very late armored cars/halftrack.

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 9/20/2015 12:12:42 AM >

(in reply to Boozername)

Post #: 145

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/19/2015 11:39:12 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

There is a December 1942 document that states the PAK 40 had a 2.75 Kg charge also. It also states the PzGr 40 round had a 2.7 Kg charge. I will have to get the info and type itt out since I can't even upload screen shots.

Note the summer 1942 Merkblatt for the PAK 40 PzGr 40 round claims 2.35 Kg for the tungsten round.

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 9/20/2015 1:20:42 AM >

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 146

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/20/2015 12:34:22 AM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

This part of a document. I mean post #22 and also #23.

I can't access ww2ammo site.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mobius -- 9/20/2015 1:41:15 AM >

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 147

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/20/2015 12:54:44 AM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

I found this in the German Anti-Tank Troops book by Fleischer and Eiermann.
Line 'G' seems to be the weight in grams. Line 'K' is the date.

Looks hand drawn...the date is January 1942? It actually would then predate the first Merkblatt, and would also predate the first use of the weapon????

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 148

RE: German 75mmL43, L48 and L46 velocities - 9/20/2015 12:58:09 AM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline