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Give conditional options - 1/19/2011 3:03:34 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

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Status: offline 		I just thought of this for the surrender conditions. Instead of just "give conditional", it should read "give conditional at any time" and "give conditional only when no forces are inside opponents home nation".

Presently, as soon as one of your corps enter an opponents home nation, he can pick you off by giving only you a conditional and then finish off your allies, and there is little you can do about. You might see this and set your conditions to give unconditional only, only to see him surrender conditionally to your allies and then crush you. There needs to be a middle option. There should be some way to seperate out when you give a conditional or not, so that it is not just in your opponents hands as soon as you get into his home nation.

In the board game this would never come up, because you would never pre-set surrender conditions.
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RE: Give conditional options - 1/19/2011 12:16:44 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Hmmmmmmmm?

I don't think I'm following?

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RE: Give conditional options - 1/19/2011 1:09:34 PM   
pzgndr

 

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Status: offline 		There was good discussion on this about a year ago. See http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2309591&key=conditional%2Csurrender

When you get a chance to think about what could work, some sort of enhancement would be good.

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RE: Give conditional options - 1/20/2011 2:50:03 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

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Status: offline 		ok, Pzgnder, so this is somewhat complex. I'll give it some thought.

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RE: Give conditional options - 1/20/2011 12:33:22 PM   
pzgndr

 

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Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		The idea of adding some more checklist boxes should be doable. Give players a little more flexibility and that should go a long way? But yeah, trying to handle every what-if conditional would be very complex and insane to code.

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RE: Give conditional options - 1/20/2011 12:34:01 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I just scanned that thread to jog my brain and remember this! Alot of work involved in these types of changes. I'm not opposed to some quick changes but a total revamp of surrender will be a ways out...


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RE: Give conditional options - 1/22/2011 2:24:28 PM   
BoerWar


Posts: 506
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Arlington, VA
Status: offline 		Hi Marshall,

I also agree that this is a problem. It gives way too much latitude to a country that is LOSING a war.

I'm not sure it needs to be as complicated as Jimmer's solution that was laid out in the link above.

Why not just add a button selection in the offer conditional surrender menu that says "Require surrender to:" and then list the other countries at war with the country that is being offered a conditional. See attachment:

This would give the winning powers the ability to tell someone they are beating that I'll give you a conditional, but only if you also surrender to my allies that I choose.

Surrender terms can be negotiated and de-conflicted among the winners outside the game.

r,
Doug




Attachment (1)

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RE: Give conditional options - 1/23/2011 12:56:10 PM   
Dancing Bear

 

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Status: offline 		This is a good idea. Anyone see any problems?

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RE: Give conditional options - 10/1/2019 12:06:45 AM   
pzgndr

 

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Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Bumping this up. After what, eight years? So, I'm looking at this surrender issue and wondering if anyone has any additional comments or suggestions based on PBEM games. I can easily change "Allow Separate Peace To:" to "Deny Separate Peace To:" to help clarify what should be an exception to the norm. I think the proposed dialog box for "Require Surrender To:" if the "Give Conditional" box is checked Yes should work. My first go at making changes did not work, but I'll keep at it.

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RE: Give conditional options - 10/2/2019 4:22:18 PM   
Maple Leaf

 

Posts: 30
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From: London,Ontario,Canada
Status: offline 		Unless I'm missing something here, this hasn't been a problem in pbem games since the surrender conditions are usually discussed and agreed to via email prior to the surrender taking place. The conditional surrender box is never "checked" unless the winning country(s) is prepared to accept a conditional.
The winning country(s) conditions are agreed to and "checked off" by the respective winning countries.



< Message edited by Maple Leaf -- 10/2/2019 4:23:37 PM >

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RE: Give conditional options - 10/2/2019 11:30:02 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maple Leaf
Unless I'm missing something here, this hasn't been a problem in pbem games since the surrender conditions are usually discussed and agreed to via email prior to the surrender taking place...


I tend to agree? I prepared the attached document for my reference, which covers all of the pertinent rules; players may have other thoughts. In my opinion, players who carefully consider conditional versus unconditional terms and whether to allow separate peace or not, should - with discussion amongst allies - be able to adequately conclude a war.

I recognize the key issue: wanting to offer the less harsh conditional if and only if the loser also sues for peace with designated allies. If anyone is not within the borders of the country, then they cannot be sued unless all allies are sued. So if you designate an ally outside the country on your list but do not designate all allies, then the code logic would fail. I see other potential problems.

The question boils down to whether the current options with some limitations are more acceptable than adding a new dialog box with potentially other limitations or problems.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 11
RE: Give conditional options - 10/4/2019 2:08:26 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		For the time being, I changed "Allow Separate Peace To" to "Deny Separate Peace To", which makes separate peace the standard condition unless the player explicitly changes it to deny.

I will hold off on adding any new dialog box options unless we get a more convincing argument that this issue is a problem that needs fixing.

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Empires in Arms Development Team

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