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Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 1:17:31 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		With plenty of lively debate on other thread just a couple of general observations from my experience. Apologies in advance if these criticisms sound harsh.


If you play historically as the Russian player in the grand campaign the AI has no difficulty surrounding Kiev trapping a shed load of units in one swoop which is good, If you dig three divisions in from day one outside Moscow in bad terrain with a good leader and plenty of support the Germans have no difficulty dislodging you provided the weather remains good which is also good. So until I get a good handle on the Germans I would say up until winter the AI does pretty good.

Which takes me to my second point. Are logistics and the other parameters actually working in this game? As the Russians I launched a general offensive along the line from December to the spring mud. Supply, fatigue and whatever else is factored in had no, repeat no bearing on my offensive.


Apart from air which no matter what anyone says is a re-write, my biggest criticism is the HQ and command and control. It is simply too easy to maintain offensives. HQ's serve no purpose its as simple as that they may as well not be there. This game is a several mechanics short in that department. My present grand campaign has degenerated into a counter shove which is a shame because it was enjoyble up to winter 42. This baby really needs help.
Post #: 1
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 1:42:20 PM   
Reconvet

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

... my biggest criticism is the HQ and command and control. It is simply too easy to maintain offensives. HQ's serve no purpose its as simple as that they may as well not be there.



Losing 10 to 20% on your combat value if units from several HQ's take part in an attack does not feel neglectible to me. I try to obtain and maintain proper C&C in my games and enjoy this aspect of the game.

It is a big nono to me not keeping my units within supply distance of their HQ. Play Axis for a change and you see the impact on supply, fuel and ammo stocks if you fail to keep within supply range. As Soviet your units might get their stuff from the next railhead, but you don't have that luxury as Axis in '41.

Insofar HQ's DO have an impact in this game, and I love it.



_____________________________

The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.


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Post #: 2
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 2:02:51 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reconvet


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

... my biggest criticism is the HQ and command and control. It is simply too easy to maintain offensives. HQ's serve no purpose its as simple as that they may as well not be there.



Losing 10 to 20% on your combat value if units from several HQ's take part in an attack does not feel neglectible to me. I try to obtain and maintain proper C&C in my games and enjoy this aspect of the game.

It is a big nono to me not keeping my units within supply distance of their HQ. Play Axis for a change and you see the impact on supply, fuel and ammo stocks if you fail to keep within supply range. As Soviet your units might get their stuff from the next railhead, but you don't have that luxury as Axis in '41.

Insofar HQ's DO have an impact in this game, and I love it.




10 or 20% of a foregone conclusion , I'm a bit underwhelmed. The leader, sure does a bit as you would expect but right now as we speak my 3rd tank army is 130 miles away from its HQ attacking merrilly part of an offensive containing 6 fronts. I'm convinced could play this from Stavka as I think it was EL Hefe said which is not good.

(in reply to Reconvet)
Post #: 3
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 2:29:16 PM   
Reconvet

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

10 or 20% of a foregone conclusion , I'm a bit underwhelmed. The leader, sure does a bit as you would expect but right now as we speak my 3rd tank army is 130 miles away from its HQ attacking merrilly part of an offensive containing 6 fronts. I'm convinced could play this from Stavka as I think it was EL Hefe said which is not good.



No CV loss if only attacking with units from the same HQ, sure.

130 miles away from it's HQ? No railhead nearby from which it can supply itself? And supply + ammo levels are ok?? Never would have occurred to me to try moving out of HQ distance like this, so - if you didn't use extensive air supply - I'd second that this would need to be looked at.

Could you post a screenshot of this situation, with one of these spearhead units displaying it's supply levels?





_____________________________

The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.


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Post #: 4
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 2:49:58 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Manual says:

quote:

Headquarters units that are in range (20.4.1) will serve as supply sources to their attached
combat units. The higher headquarters units of these HQ units do not have an impact on
supplying attached HQ units, only combat units that are directly attached. For example, in the
case where the Soviet 3rd Army HQ unit is attached to the Kalinin Front HQ unit, the 3rd Army
will provide supply to its attached combat units, but the Kalinin Front will only provide supply to
combat units that are directly attached to the Front HQ unit


In other words: The army draws supply directly from a railhead or town (how far out is it?). Why would front command have to be very near army command? 130 miles (13 hexes) is well in range, so it still is getting support from front...

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 1/23/2011 2:52:08 PM >

_____________________________

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Reconvet)
Post #: 5
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 2:55:53 PM   
KenchiSulla


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From: the Netherlands
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quote:

Which takes me to my second point. Are logistics and the other parameters actually working in this game? As the Russians I launched a general offensive along the line from December to the spring mud. Supply, fatigue and whatever else is factored in had no, repeat no bearing on my offensive.


It probably is affecting your troops, but it is hurting his troops more....?

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 6
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 3:17:57 PM   
Reconvet

 

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Joined: 1/17/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Manual says:

quote:

Headquarters units that are in range (20.4.1) will serve as supply sources to their attached
combat units. The higher headquarters units of these HQ units do not have an impact on
supplying attached HQ units, only combat units that are directly attached. For example, in the
case where the Soviet 3rd Army HQ unit is attached to the Kalinin Front HQ unit, the 3rd Army
will provide supply to its attached combat units, but the Kalinin Front will only provide supply to
combat units that are directly attached to the Front HQ unit


In other words: The army draws supply directly from a railhead or town (how far out is it?). Why would front command have to be very near army command? 130 miles (13 hexes) is well in range, so it still is getting support from front...



Regarding unit supply paths:

quote:

Manual 20.4.1. TRACING SUPPLY
In order to receive supply, a combat unit first attempts to trace a path to the headquarters unit to which it is attached. The combat unit must be within both five hexes and twenty MPs of the applicable headquarters unit.
In order for a headquarters unit to provide supply to its attached combat and support units, it in turn must be within both 25 hexes and 100 MPs of a railhead.
If a combat unit cannot trace an eligible path to its headquarters unit, it will then attempt to trace a path to a railhead as if it was a headquarters unit, i.e. within both 25 hexes and 100 MPs of the railhead.


So: 13 hexes between combat units and their direct HQ: These units have to trace a supply path to a railhead...

Must be some kind of misunderstanding, I see no point in your reply to my posts.





_____________________________

The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.


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Post #: 7
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 3:35:09 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder


It probably is affecting your troops, but it is hurting his troops more....?



For arguements sake its not a Russian/German thing it is the fact that in the end none of the game physics were stopping me which is very disturbing

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 8
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 4:01:42 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reconvet


No CV loss if only attacking with units from the same HQ, sure.

130 miles away from it's HQ? No railhead nearby from which it can supply itself? And supply + ammo levels are ok?? Never would have occurred to me to try moving out of HQ distance like this, so - if you didn't use extensive air supply - I'd second that this would need to be looked at.

Could you post a screenshot of this situation, with one of these spearhead units displaying it's supply levels?


The different armies attacking has never effected me one iota

You are missing the crux of the problem which is HQ's do so little they are redundant feature I am now 150 miles from the HQ and have stacks sitting at 20 CV with 55% fuel and 66% supply and nearly 100% ammo and they are fighting every turn. Im sorry but there is little or no substance to any of the detail. The HQ's best function and that is at Front level is you get different coloured units thats basically it.





(in reply to Reconvet)
Post #: 9
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 4:20:35 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Reconvet - the way I read the OP is:

quote:

but right now as we speak my 3rd tank army is 130 miles away from its HQ attacking merrilly part of an offensive containing 6 fronts


So I am assuming the 3rd tank army HQ is 130 miles from the FRONT HQ with the combat units attached to 3rd tank in supply and support range of its HQ...

I cant imagine the tank army getting good supply (enough to sustain an offensive) from just a railhead, or can I?

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Reconvet)
Post #: 10
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 4:24:07 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		How about additional chances to add support units to battles?

How about all the "under the hood stuff"?

130 miles isnt a lot... Try moving the Front HQ to Moscow and attack again... Lets see how that goes. Would be a good test

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 11
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 4:34:09 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Reconvet - the way I read the OP is:

quote:

but right now as we speak my 3rd tank army is 130 miles away from its HQ attacking merrilly part of an offensive containing 6 fronts


So I am assuming the 3rd tank army HQ is 130 miles from the FRONT HQ with the combat units attached to 3rd tank in supply and support range of its HQ...

I cant imagine the tank army getting good supply (enough to sustain an offensive) from just a railhead, or can I?



The 3rd armies tanks are now 170 miles from the 3rd Army HQ and are in robust health fighting and encircling hapless Germans every turn, the commander suggests if he moves his HQ to a Dacha in the Crimea his performance might improve further.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 12
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 4:44:11 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		What kind of german opposition are you facing? And are support units being committed to battle? How does the supply picture look (drawn in and expended). Where is your railhead? How many trucks are you loosing? I now understand what you are saying but it doesnt really say anything without additional information.....

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 13
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 5:01:37 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

What kind of german opposition are you facing? And are support units being committed to battle? How does the supply picture look (drawn in and expended). Where is your railhead? How many trucks are you loosing? I now understand what you are saying but it doesnt really say anything without additional information.....


Panzer divisions and defence in depth, nope but sure who cares the way Im going through the Germans it aint important. The additional imformation is largely irrevelant Im 18 hexs from HQ. I have 30% supply 50% fuel and 100% ammo and my railhead is about 6 hexes away. I have plenty of combat numbers

You just cant get your head round this HQ's are a redundant feature their effect on the game is so marginal they are just clutter. The only gravity is the huge number of German units to plough through.

This game need some serious mechanics inserted.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 14
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 5:10:54 PM   
karonagames


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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Playing the AI will teach you some bad habits. I am pretty sure you will find when you play a human, who will be much more pro-active when defending than the AI is, you will find that C&C and logistics will be more important.

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RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 5:17:30 PM   
JR5555

 

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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How many Offensives did the Russians have that failed because they over extended their supply line. How many times did the Russians after learning not to over extend the supply line stop and wait for the supplies to build up before continuing.

Is the logistical situation that the Russians had historically in the game using the same logistical game mechanics as the Germans? One of the two biggest reasons keeping the Russians out of Berlin was supply, this might explain why the Russians in the game are in Berlin in 42 or 43. They never have to wait for supply.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 16
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 5:22:54 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Playing the AI will teach you some bad habits. I am pretty sure you will find when you play a human, who will be much more pro-active when defending than the AI is, you will find that C&C and logistics will be more important.


Off course a human will give you a better game but please this is simply no excuse for the lack of in game enviroment. Right now game physics are non existant which from a customer point of view is unacceptable. The only thing you are limited by is the ability of the AI to spam units across the map and for £60 I expect a bit more. The more I play the more dissappointing as less and less holds up to scrutiny this is becoming which is a shame because the game looks beautiful has a pretty good interface and has a wealth of detail.

Is it true units just draw supply from railheads?

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 17
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 5:46:30 PM   
karonagames


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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
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quote:

Is it true units just draw supply from railheads?


Only if they don't get it via their HQs in the first supply phase, so they obviously get a lot less than if they received supply in both supply phases.

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It's only a Game


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RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 6:15:02 PM   
alfonso

 

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From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline 		How much ammo did the unit receive when it was 18 hexes away from its HQ?

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RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 6:47:15 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

How much ammo did the unit receive when it was 18 hexes away from its HQ?


Nearly 100%

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RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 6:49:35 PM   
alfonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

How much ammo did the unit receive when it was 18 hexes away from its HQ?


Nearly 100%



No, no how much it has, but how much it received, in tons.

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 21
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 7:04:54 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hattrick1



How many Offensives did the Russians have that failed because they over extended their supply line. How many times did the Russians after learning not to over extend the supply line stop and wait for the supplies to build up before continuing.

Is the logistical situation that the Russians had historically in the game using the same logistical game mechanics as the Germans? One of the two biggest reasons keeping the Russians out of Berlin was supply, this might explain why the Russians in the game are in Berlin in 42 or 43. They never have to wait for supply.


Glad somebody understands the ramifications of having zero gravity in game. I prefer to get away from the German/Russian side of things to just general mechanics but yes there is little to stop a Russian or a German player bar railroad repair (even at that I forgot to do that the first half of one of my offensives and it made little difference).

If you take the first Russian winter offensive against the AI there is nothing to stop you except role playing and the AI spamming units. This needs addressed

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Post #: 22
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 7:06:03 PM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

How much ammo did the unit receive when it was 18 hexes away from its HQ?


Nearly 100%



No, no how much it has, but how much it received, in tons.


if that is ammo recieved = 34

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 23
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 7:10:58 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline 		Can you post a screenshot similar to this? Perhaps any developer could explain what is happening in your game, if there is an issue, and in the process we all can learn what all those numbers mean...

Edit: 34 tons of ammo do not seem a very large quantity, because my Division in the picture received 358.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by alfonso -- 1/23/2011 7:12:25 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 7:24:46 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		Whats the take screen key?

edit my ammo is near 100% so does not need much

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 1/23/2011 7:25:14 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 7:27:04 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		So you are not expending ammo?

Just hit prt scrn and use paint to edit it and make it a JPEG file.

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 26
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 7:27:39 PM   
alfonso

 

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From: Palma de Mallorca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


Whats the take screen key?


In my keyboard it is at the right of F12, and above Insert, in a group of 3 keys. Then you have to open Paint, and make "Paste". Then you can save the image as JPEG file, and embed it in your post

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 27
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 7:36:52 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline 		Thinking about your unit.

It seems that

a) yours is a small unit, which intuitively seem easier to supply

or

b) you were near full capacity, because you did not expend much ammo with that unit.

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 28
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 7:45:27 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
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From: Palma de Mallorca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

What kind of german opposition are you facing? And are support units being committed to battle? How does the supply picture look (drawn in and expended). Where is your railhead? How many trucks are you loosing? I now understand what you are saying but it doesnt really say anything without additional information.....


Panzer divisions and defence in depth, nope but sure who cares the way Im going through the Germans it aint important. The additional imformation is largely irrevelant Im 18 hexs from HQ. I have 30% supply 50% fuel and 100% ammo and my railhead is about 6 hexes away. I have plenty of combat numbers

You just cant get your head round this HQ's are a redundant feature their effect on the game is so marginal they are just clutter. The only gravity is the huge number of German units to plough through.

This game need some serious mechanics inserted.


Cannonfodder asked about German opposition because if there was severe fight, ammo is expended. Advance in open country does not expend much ammo. The question was not irrelevant.

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 29
RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 7:53:44 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline 		Having no luck with this

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 1/23/2011 7:55:19 PM >

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 30
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