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RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 7:57:56 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Thinking about your unit.

It seems that

a) yours is a small unit, which intuitively seem easier to supply

or

b) you were near full capacity, because you did not expend much ammo with that unit.

It is 5 Armoured corps and two mech corps of the 5 tank army which have been in continuous action fighting up to 3 times a week

edit from Kiev to just outside Lvov

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 1/23/2011 8:10:23 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 8:17:42 PM

alfonso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Thinking about your unit.

It seems that

a) yours is a small unit, which intuitively seem easier to supply

or

b) you were near full capacity, because you did not expend much ammo with that unit.

It is 5 Armoured corps and two mech corps of the 5 tank army which have been in continuous action fighting up to 3 times a week

edit from Kiev to just outside Lvov

If a unit as big as a Mech Corps only needs 34 tons of ammo to reach 100%...

a) the fight in the last turns has not been very severe

or

b) something is wrong with the ammo expended in your battles. But if you see my screenshot (a Tank Div out of HQ range) I had 19% of ammo before supply, and then received 358 tons to reach 59%, if I interpret the numbers correctly. (I think the manual is wrong about the meaning of my 19%).
My Div did expend ammo, I don't understand what happens in your case.

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Post #: 32

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 8:40:56 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

Thinking about your unit.

It seems that

a) yours is a small unit, which intuitively seem easier to supply

or

b) you were near full capacity, because you did not expend much ammo with that unit.

It is 5 Armoured corps and two mech corps of the 5 tank army which have been in continuous action fighting up to 3 times a week

edit from Kiev to just outside Lvov

If a unit as big as a Mech Corps only needs 34 tons of ammo to reach 100%...

a) the fight in the last turns has not been very severe

or

b) something is wrong with the ammo expended in your battles. But if you see my screenshot (a Tank Div out of HQ range) I had 19% of ammo before supply, and then received 358 tons to reach 59%, if I interpret the numbers correctly. (I think the manual is wrong about the meaning of my 19%).
My Div did expend ammo, I don't understand what happens in your case.

Here is the problem, forget the numbers the problem is thus; A tank army has fought its way 180 miles from its HQ without appreciable detriment to its abilty to continue to fight. The HQ serves no function and is merely redundant, the presence of supply serves no purpose and is redundant, fatigue serves no purpose and is redundant. In reality I should be able to rotate units to smash fatigued Germans instead I can push my units on and on and their fighting capabilty is largely unnaffected (likewise niether is the germans). What is the point of printing a 300 page manual out when you can just keep going and going with most of the features irrevelant?

Because the "enviroment" of game is limited because all these things are far from crucial or decisive the game becomes bland. I did not test it (because I role play a bit to protect the AI) but I am sure that my offensive could have become general along the front and I would suffer not detrimental effects. That I'm afraid is nonsense and goes along way to explain the angst of the German player in the winter of 41.

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 1/23/2011 8:42:29 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 8:55:32 PM

Smirfy

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Looking at fatigue a bit more A unit of the same type in the line which has not moved or fought in 4 months has the same fatigue as one that has fought over 180 miles not that it effects much.

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Post #: 34

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 9:37:25 PM

ParaB

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Have you perhaps massively increased your logistics level in the settings? Or have lowered your enemy's morale and logistics? I ask because what you report is so much different from what I see in my current game with the Axis that I can't really believe it. Some screenshots would be apreciated.

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Post #: 35

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 9:51:49 PM

KenchiSulla

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Seriously having trouble understand what is happening in your game. I tried a few turns on the axis side (am in a defensive position in my PBEM now) and as soon as I advance a lot I need to slow down to enable my units to receive supplies and fuel... What are the settings you are using?

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Post #: 36

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 9:56:19 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParaB

Have you perhaps massively increased your logistics level in the settings? Or have lowered your enemy's morale and logistics? I ask because what you report is so much different from what I see in my current game with the Axis that I can't really believe it. Some screenshots would be apreciated.

Nope just on default settings for both sides which is default (100). I messed up my photobucket account and get it back in 48 hours. Why would I lie? think I have got it uploaded now.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 37

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:05:36 PM

Smirfy

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And showing the distance

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Post #: 38

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:07:12 PM

Smirfy

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distance

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 39

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:07:33 PM

KenchiSulla

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I see soviet corps expend about 20%-25% of ammo in a deliberate attack. Apparantly this unit hasnt attacked last (few?) turns... It draws less supply then it would when close to its HQ. It probably also isnt commiting support units..

The way I see it, your opposition in front of you has already succumbed to the initial assault (with HQ in range?). What does the map look like?

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.�
� Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

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Post #: 40

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:10:53 PM

Mynok

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Corps HQ are the only ones that deal with supply as far as I can tell. If you are 100's of hexes from your corps HQ and not having supply problems then there is an issue. Army HQs are supposed to be far in the rear. That's from the German side at least.

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Post #: 41

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:12:15 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

I see soviet corps expend about 20%-25% of ammo in a deliberate attack. Apparantly this unit hasnt attacked last (few?) turns... It draws less supply then it would when close to its HQ. It probably also isnt commiting support units..

The way I see it, your opposition in front of you has already succumbed to the initial assault (with HQ in range?). What does the map look like?

3rd tank army is fighting 3 times a turn mostly since May it is now September, it has faced line after line of German divisions I forgot to move the HQ about the start of July and then left it on purpose as the it got rediculous.

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Post #: 42

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:13:59 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Corps HQ are the only ones that deal with supply as far as I can tell. If you are 100's of hexes from your corps HQ and not having supply problems then there is an issue. Army HQs are supposed to be far in the rear. That's from the German side at least.

Okay what is the point of HQ's? What is the point of supply if it is like oxygen?

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Post #: 43

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:14:55 PM

alfonso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

And showing the distance

distance? where is it?

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Post #: 44

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:16:54 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

And showing the distance

distance? where is it?

The Orange highlighted HQ and the highlighted Corps one at extreme left the other extreme right

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Post #: 45

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:18:33 PM

timmyab

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I agree that the command and control system is a rather dissapointing aspect of the game.I want to be able to feel the personalities of my generals on the battlefield in a very obvious way and I'm not getting that at the moment.Also I'd like to see the effectiveness of HQ's decrease steadily with range, not just all or nothing up to a set distance.If a unit is attached to an army group 45 hexes away it should have limited uses, whereas if it's attached to a corps HQ in an adjacent hex with a good general the difference should be immediately obvious.
In fact there's tons of stuff I'd like to change really although that doesn't mean to say that the game's no good, it's just that C&C is my favorite aspect of wargaming.

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Post #: 46

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:22:07 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Corps HQ are the only ones that deal with supply as far as I can tell. If you are 100's of hexes from your corps HQ and not having supply problems then there is an issue. Army HQs are supposed to be far in the rear. That's from the German side at least.

Okay what is the point of HQ's? What is the point of supply if it is like oxygen?

You are playing the Soviets so it's a totally different animal because they have a rail net.

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Post #: 47

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:22:53 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I agree that the command and control system is a rather dissapointing aspect of the game.I want to be able to feel the personalities of my generals on the battlefield in a very obvious way and I'm not getting that at the moment.Also I'd like to see the effectiveness of HQ's decrease steadily with range, not just all or nothing up to a set distance.If a unit is attached to an army group 45 hexes away it should have limited uses, whereas if it's attached to a corps HQ in an adjacent hex with a good general the difference should be immediately obvious.
In fact there's tons of stuff I'd like to change really although that doesn't mean to say that the game's no good, it's just that C&C is my favorite aspect of wargaming.

Yup thats the way things should work

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Post #: 48

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:25:08 PM

alfonso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

And showing the distance

distance? where is it?

The Orange highlighted HQ and the highlighted Corps one at extreme left the other extreme right

Ah, thanks. I forgot that embedded images are wider than normal posts, and I was not seing your complete picture.

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Post #: 49

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:26:50 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Corps HQ are the only ones that deal with supply as far as I can tell. If you are 100's of hexes from your corps HQ and not having supply problems then there is an issue. Army HQs are supposed to be far in the rear. That's from the German side at least.

Okay what is the point of HQ's? What is the point of supply if it is like oxygen?

You are playing the Soviets so it's a totally different animal because they have a rail net.

Again your missing the point I have fought my way with these units over 300 miles and could fight another 300. Wash, rinse, repeat.

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Post #: 50

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 10:38:56 PM

alfonso

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I think that if you advance 3 hexes westward each turn, and your rail network extends 3 hexes westward each turn, your units can be supplied more or less adequately (or even adequately) by rail supply. The HQ supply role (their depots) become (more) relevant when your unit is not so near of your rail grid. I suppose you still have the HQ leader role in function, but you will not have their support unit function, and their support squad function.

Please note that I am not giving an opinion about if that should be considered OK, but a possible explanation for your observations.

< Message edited by alfonso -- 1/23/2011 10:44:55 PM >

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Post #: 51

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 11:08:40 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

I think that if you advance 3 hexes westward each turn, and your rail network extends 3 hexes westward each turn, your units can be supplied more or less adequately (or even adequately) by rail supply. The HQ supply role (their depots) become (more) relevant when your unit is not so near of your rail grid. I suppose you still have the HQ leader role in function, but you will not have their support unit function, and their support squad function.

Please note that I am not giving an opinion about if that should be considered OK, but a possible explanation for your observations.

So basically we can condense a 300 page manual into move you units forward and keep a rail construction unit repairing lines as near as possible.

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RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 11:25:42 PM

alfonso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

[... move you units forward and keep a rail construction unit repairing lines as near as possible.

It seems a sound strategy...

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RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 11:32:13 PM

ParaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

I think that if you advance 3 hexes westward each turn, and your rail network extends 3 hexes westward each turn, your units can be supplied more or less adequately (or even adequately) by rail supply. The HQ supply role (their depots) become (more) relevant when your unit is not so near of your rail grid. I suppose you still have the HQ leader role in function, but you will not have their support unit function, and their support squad function.

Please note that I am not giving an opinion about if that should be considered OK, but a possible explanation for your observations.

That would make sense. But advancing at the rate of the railroad repair teams is sooo WW1...

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Post #: 54

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 11:38:52 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

[... move you units forward and keep a rail construction unit repairing lines as near as possible.

It seems a sound strategy...

Looking at the map you are never really going to be far from a railway and even with the remote controled RR repair units you arnt going to be in trouble so basicallly one should be able to attack all the time. Whilst I would not under estimate the importance of the railway in WWII I think it will always be more associated with the internal combustion engine. I agree the strategy would be sound but it would make playing past December 1941 very very dull

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Post #: 55

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 11:42:25 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

I think that if you advance 3 hexes westward each turn, and your rail network extends 3 hexes westward each turn, your units can be supplied more or less adequately (or even adequately) by rail supply. The HQ supply role (their depots) become (more) relevant when your unit is not so near of your rail grid. I suppose you still have the HQ leader role in function, but you will not have their support unit function, and their support squad function.

Please note that I am not giving an opinion about if that should be considered OK, but a possible explanation for your observations.

That would make sense. But advancing at the rate of the railroad repair teams is sooo WW1...

Funnily enough I feel more like Haig than Zhukov in my game. you take one hex in every push.

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Post #: 56

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 11:50:40 PM

Rosseau

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The fatigue issue is important. Manual says high fatigue will cut your CV, right? I also "role play" and rest my units as needed. Perhaps the Germans your tank armies are up against are so depleted your bad fatigue doesn't seem apparent in the combat results? I wonder if they came up against decent German resistance?

I haven't gotten far enough to duplicate Smirfy's experience, but this is an important thread. thanks

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Post #: 57

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/23/2011 11:52:37 PM

alfonso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ParaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

I think that if you advance 3 hexes westward each turn, and your rail network extends 3 hexes westward each turn, your units can be supplied more or less adequately (or even adequately) by rail supply. The HQ supply role (their depots) become (more) relevant when your unit is not so near of your rail grid. I suppose you still have the HQ leader role in function, but you will not have their support unit function, and their support squad function.

Please note that I am not giving an opinion about if that should be considered OK, but a possible explanation for your observations.

That would make sense. But advancing at the rate of the railroad repair teams is sooo WW1...

Funnily enough I feel more like Haig than Zhukov in my game. you take one hex in every push.

Why dont you try deep envelopments?. It seems funnier, and you will see what happens when you have german Division between your units and your railgrid... And you perhaps will arrive to Berlin sooner

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Post #: 58

RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/24/2011 12:08:56 AM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

The fatigue issue is important. Manual says high fatigue will cut your CV, right? I also "role play" and rest my units as needed. Perhaps the Germans your tank armies are up against are so depleted your bad fatigue doesn't seem apparent in the combat results? I wonder if they came up against decent German resistance?

I haven't gotten far enough to duplicate Smirfy's experience, but this is an important thread. thanks

I have came up against the top 3 SS PZ divisions (I have destroyed the Tots 3 times :D) My units had no problem against them as there is not a much single division can do against 8 Armoured and Mech Corps. My infantry stacks are sitting at 50-70 CV backed by artillery which hits anyting pretty hard.

The fatigue is relative the Germans have been pushed back 300 miles. The operation of fatigue should be better to encourage more realistic and interesting play like pronouced advantages for rotating units and disadvantages for letting units fight till they drop

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RE: Couple of criticisms - 1/24/2011 12:13:10 AM

Flaviusx

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Smirfy, try a 43 scenario in PBEM. I think you might just be getting a little jaded on the AI. It plays an adequate defensive game. But it's not von Manstein.

A game against a human is far more gripping and free wheeling (on both sides.)

All my playtesting efforts at present are in this late war period, btw, I've got a second 43 campaign going with Bob and some new late war scenarios.

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Post #: 60