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Watchword Freedom - 12/19/2000 9:25:00 AM   
Don Doom


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OK, just finished, two draws, three mv and three dv. I have some Hero's to send to Mr. Tankheads hero page. Now maybe I can finish U to R. 17 points total. Luck pure Luck. Don Very good camPAIN. Mr Wild Bill.

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- 12/19/2000 10:53:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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Excellent job, Don! Really! I did not do that well and I designed it. It certainly makes me very happy that you did enjoy it. The Victors will be online within a few weeks. Let you take a break from the war. You deserve it! Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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- 12/19/2000 8:21:00 PM   
Dave_R

 

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OK Bill. Seeing as we've got a new thread going here I'm going to hold up my hands and in front of the whole forum admit that with Watchword Freedom I've cheeted! (Hangs his head in shame) I used the campaign editor to give myself 4000 pts to build my core force with, which got me a Coy Of Panzer Gren. and a Coy of Tigers. Though I will say in my defence. I have halved all the build points and support points for all the battles. Now I'm just hoping that I'll have enough points to make my repairs after the first battle! Only upto turn 4 and am already 3 Tigers down, 2 to Su152, and 1 to mines.

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- 12/19/2000 11:11:00 PM   
Charles22

 

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DaveR: I'll tell you what was really a bummer for me. On the second battle, I had 5 Tigers on the central hill. while I had three or four elsewhere. One Tiger was poised to deal with the north, and unless moved couldn't deal with the attack from the direct east. So, I had four Tigers facing east, and two SGs fruther back on the hill facing SE or E. The first turn that fire was exchanged, saw one Tiger have it's gun break, while two other Tigers were main gun inoperative due to SU152 fire. I dispatched 3 Tigers from the more rearward quarters to that hill pronto, but the hill was on pins and needles for the longest (having infantry and mines in front didn't hurt matters any). If I understand the campaign design correctly, battle two may be quite a break for you, as the only mines you have to worry about will be your own.

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- 12/20/2000 12:03:00 AM   
Dave_R

 

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(mutter, mutter, grumble, groan!) Change that to scratch 4 Tigers!! (pouts) I should have remembered from Heros of the Motherland just how good those damned Russian 76mil anti tank guns are!!! This is turning into an object lesson for me that Tigers are damned good! But they are far, far from invulnrable!

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Post #: 5
- 12/20/2000 12:33:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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Though most of you may know this, it is worth repeating. In my readings about German armor I find that a inordinate number of Panthers and Tigers were captured intact and abandoned. The reason? Being more technically advanced tanks, optics, etc, they were more prone to breakdowns. Rugged and durable against enemy fire, they sometimes became their own worst enemies with delicate mechanisms that sometimes had not been thoroughly "debugged" and made tanks useless or ineffective. With the weather, the hard push and the lack of opportunity for either preventive or repair maintenance, The German tankers had more than just the Russians to contend with. In fact, they were fighting two enemies: the Russians and maintenance problems (with the weather as a very strong factor). It was rough for those panzer commanders in more ways than one! Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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- 12/20/2000 12:36:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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No problem Dave. I can understand your reasoning. These ultimate campaigns are some of the hardest I've ever designed for the SP gamer. In fact, I intend to do 2 versions of The Victors, one easier, one harder. That way the diehards can take the rough road and those less experienced can choose the easier route to victory. And of course, as always, one can make all kinds of adjustments (don't you love the preference choices! ?) Good hunting guys. Keep the pressure on those Ruskies. The kamaraden inside the trap are counting on you to get them to safety. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 7
- 12/20/2000 2:50:00 AM   
Don Doom


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Here is what I used: one plt of Elfant,tigers,stugIIIG,stuh42, two plt. of leg inf. and eng's, two obs. two 88 flak 18 AA one sdkfz 7. stug3 upgraded to panthers then tigers. two of stuh42 to brumbars. one of the 88 to 88pak43 atg. then the other 88 to nashorn the two mg's from the inf to leg inf. then the leg inf to ss leg inf. This was not an easy campain to do. I was very LUCKY in several battles. In the last battle my core Hero's had to defend/fend off an massive russian tank/infantany assult at the cross roads to keep it open for the trapped units. Don

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- 12/20/2000 3:17:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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Don, did you get the feel of the historical moment, the Russians pursuing the Germans seeking to flee the net? WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 9
- 12/20/2000 4:13:00 AM   
Dave_R

 

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Actually Bill! There's an idea for a campaigne. Let the player buy a sizable core force, but then no support points, and no repair points. Then lets see how far people can get. Hmmmm! Something like the Chindits comes to mind!

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Post #: 10
- 12/20/2000 4:39:00 AM   
Don Doom


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I got the feeling I needed to flee back to german ground. It was a interesting to all of the sudden to have a group of T34s and inf. show up behind the trapped units. Made my lif hell for several turns until I could place the panthers and marder between the russians and fleeing units. Hated to us them that way, since they where fleeing too. Don

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Doom
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For death is only the begining

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Post #: 11
- 12/20/2000 4:44:00 AM   
Charles22

 

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Dave_R: I was thinking that this particular campaign was that way (though it may be impossible to program a seperate campaign from the programming of other camapigns with different rules), but if you have all options on, there's almost no way you could win, because each tank would break down more than likely over the course of all the battles, while the AI would always have fresh forces.

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Post #: 12
- 12/20/2000 4:48:00 AM   
Kluckenbill

 

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Mea Maxima Culpa ! I too must admit to having cheated at WF! I started out the first battle with an inordinately high opinion of my combat power. I spread the boys out into three attack groups and advanced. By turn 9 it was apparent that I was going to be overwhelmed in detail so I went back to the 'save' and restarted. Needless to say, things went better next time. The second battle was much easier, defending and all that. I just started the third battle. A mistake I made in U2R was that I took too small a core force that could not be significantly upgraded. I didn't make that mistake this time. Here is my starting force with eventual (hopeful) upgrades: 1 platoon of 4 Tigers and 2 platoons of 4 StG 4's. I then formed 3 mixed platoons with 1 or 2 tigers per platoon. I am upgrading all the AFV's to Tigers ASAP. At the end of the second battle I have only 3 StG's left. I bought 3 Spec Op's platoons of 3 squads each. I like these guys for their short range SMG firepower. I also bought 3 sections of PanzerFausts and a total of 12 trucks. I then formed 3 infantry platoons of 3 Spec Op's, 3 Pz Faust and 4 trucks each. I am slowly upgrading the trucks to halftracks, I may change all the grunts to SS eventually, too bad they don't have Sturm Gewehr's. I took a total of 3 81mm Mortars and 2 120 mm Mortars, to eventually be upgraded to better indirect fire guns. So far they are unchanged. I took 2 sections of 2 20mm FlAK (4 total) and have upgraded them to the SP versions. Eventually I think I'll upgrade my A0 to an Elephant, just because they are cool and nearly indestructible. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !

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Post #: 13
- 12/20/2000 5:01:00 AM   
Charles22

 

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Kluckenbill: You might want to rethink some of your units. To me, the Panzerfaust units are something of a waste, though the Panzerschreck may not be. What I'm getting at here, is that the regular infantry have panzerfaust weapons themselves, so why not use infantry instead? I can see using panzerfaust units because they're stealthier, but since their enemy is tanks the stealth may not matter that much anyway. The panzerschreck units on the other hand not only have stealth but they have a wealth of shots and also aren't available to any other unit such as infantry. I don't believe they're available in 2/44, and their experience may be suspect, but I think the VG units carry smgs as an alternative to commandos, if economy is an issue.

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- 12/20/2000 9:26:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

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My two most useful weapons (units) were Tigers and motorcycle units. The motorcycle units are recon and see well. They don't fight that well but they can really pick up on the enemy presence....and they are cheap Tigers seem to have much better durability than Panthers. I'll give up the speed for the more solid punch and resistance of the Tigers. Smart move to upgrade to Tigers. If you get infantry, get SS. They are a little more expensive but have a +10 to morale and experience. That can come in very handy. Just some thought from my own personal play of the campaign...Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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- 12/21/2000 12:33:00 AM   
Kluckenbill

 

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Charles, you are right about the Panzerfausts. I took them because they were a cheap way to 'round out' my future infantry platoons. I plan to upgrade them to something better eventually. I was (and still am) in a quandary as to whether it is better to take the Spec Opn's for their tremendous short range firepower, or regular rifle or SS to get a bit more anti-infantry power at moderate ranges. With all my Tigers, I'm really not too concerned about taking out the Russian tanks. Bye the way, I have found two interesting things in the WF battles: 1. The 20mm FlAK units seem very effective against bunkers and MG nests. I don't know if this is by design or some fluke of chance, but my 20mm units have knocked out more bunkers by direct fore than have all of my tanks combined! 2. Russian Engineers in buildings are awfully difficult to kill! They have tremendous close range (1 hex) firepower and can easily chew up any German unit in one turn. My 'to hit' percentage is usually 2 or 3 per cent against them! I try to chase them out of town with artillery but I don't always succeed. I've managed to lose several recon and motorcyclcle squads to them, then I sit a few tanks 2 hexes away and pound them for 2 turns befopre close assaulting with my Spec Op's boys, and I still have a rough time of it. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !

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- 12/21/2000 12:56:00 AM   
Lars Remmen

 

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Hello, Using the following forces: 3 rifle Plt's -> Now FJ 1 Engineer Plt 1 Tiger Plt 1 SS Panther Plt 1 SPAA Sec. 1 SP Rocket bt 1 MC Sec -> Special Forces Plt 1 Scout Sec -> SPAA 1 Tracked FO 1 Foot Fo 1 Halftrack FT sec (My most dangerous units when used properly) This has so far been enough for two decisive victories. Although resistance in the second battle, especially the engineers in the north, was fanatical. Even single men kept killing my infantry... My finest moment was when a burst of MG fire took out a MG pit *BEG* ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide

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- 12/21/2000 12:58:00 AM   
Charles22

 

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Kluckenbill: Perhaps what you are seeing is that you've run into a number of fort units that have a '0' hull rating, such as the WF mg posts do. One thing good about those light tanks (which as things stand we can't buy, just yet) is like the HTs they carry quite a lot of ammo. In the first WF battle, I too seemed to knock out mg posts more easily with whatever I was using (I believe it was 37L46s on HTs) than with Tigers. Given the mg post hull was a zero rating (and many forts have hull ratings no more than 40mm), I almost felt as though I was wasting time and ammunition better spent elsewhere than to use the Tiger guns on them, but it's one of those things where in order to hope to advance your Tigers very far, safely, you need to help out the infantry, so as it generally happens with me, there will be a phase where the big tanks are suppressing/destroying any anti-personnel obstacles, and then later, as more AT factors have been dealt with, I will move up some of the lightest stuff to take over while the Tigers move on. I looked at the panzerschreck yesterday when I got home, and other than what I already knew about it's having more shots, a few other things popped up. For one thing, it has a range of '4', while the best panzerfaust has range of '3'. The accuracy is about the same, given that the more inaccurate panzerschreck is blessed with 33% more range to work off of. Secondly, the panzerschreck has max. penetration of 195, while the faust has 225. A considerable advantage to the faust, but then again, how many tanks withstand the potential of 195? Of course HEAT rounds don't achieve the max all of the time, but given the advantages of the schreck, in the areas it has them, ideally, the enemy tanks would face fausts, frontally from the infantry, while facing schrecks, more distant, from the sides/rear.

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- 12/21/2000 4:56:00 AM   
FM

 

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Hello, I have the following forces: 2 Tiger sec. 2 Panther (d) sec -> Now Tigers 1 SP mortar sec 1 SPAA Sec. -> Now flammpanzer 1 flammpanzer sec. 1 Stug IIIf/8 sec. -> Stug IV -> Now Tiger 2 Pioneer Plt 1 Inf-AT Sec (2 Pzschrek) the 2 pioneer Plt and the Inf-AT sec. were now reorganized in 3 Plt: 1st & 2nd -> 1 SS Rifle + 2 Engineer + 1 Pzschrek + 3 HT 3rd -> 2 SS Rifle + 2 Engineer + 4 HT I have now 10 Tigers in 5 Sections My two first battles were decisive victories. In the 3rd scenario, I only win a marginal victory because I confounded retreat hex and exit hex. I had already "retreated" my 2 SP mortar and my 2 SPAA before realizing what I was doing. BTW in this scenario, the objective being to exit before the end (which I did by the 14th turn), I was surprised to didn't have to fix an immobilized Panther (the crew exited the map). Doesn't abandonned vehicle be considered destroyed even if the crew survive ? Comments: As I play with all realism preferences "ON", the CC "ON" make me prefer sections and recon-type troops. Flammpanzer when correctly supported by Tigers are my weapon of choice, they are really good to dislodge infantry from 2 hexes away (avoiding close assault) and kill ammo/fuel dump with one hit. Pioneers are much better than engineers, they are elite AND recon troops and come with HT; their range is limited but changing the Plt. leader to SS Rifle and eventually the MG-42 to Pzschrek compensate for this weakness. Finest moments so far [SPOILER]: In the first battle, one of my SPAA (Spw-251/17) killed the 1st aircobra with its first op fire. Yes, with its first shot, that's luck, isn't it? But the best was in the 3rd battle, where one of my Pzschrek team reduced to one man after its first miss and a lucky Soviet op fire answer, singlehandledly destroyed 3 T34-85 and escaped alive. It is now credited with 5 kills (2 pillboxes close-assaulted in previous battles). Is that sufficient to be eligible for an Iron Cross? Thanks Wild Bill, this campaign is very fun and full of surprises. One last question, when you play with AI advantage "ON", does this affect custom campaign like this one? ------------------ "Qui voit le ciel dans l'eau voit les poissons sur les arbres"

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Post #: 19
- 12/23/2000 1:30:00 AM   
Igor

 

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Herr Wild Bill... I just finished the campaign, and it left me with one small question; were the wounded soldiers in the final battle supposed to be hauling around a 105mm gun? As the trucks hauling the wounded arrived at the support area, I unloaded them to send them into the buildings (one of which should be an aid station or some such). Idly curious, I right clicked on one to see what the well equipped wounded rifleman is carrying these days. Imagine my surprise when the 4th weapon turned out to be a 105 L 52 from a StuH 42. While visions of using the barrel as a splint or an IV tube danced in my head, I decided that I had to ask if this was just a glitch or if they were really supposed to be able to blow T-34s to kingdom come with great ease...So, which is it?

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- 12/23/2000 2:33:00 AM   
Dave_R

 

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Ok! My sence of honor has got the better of me! I've just upgraded to ver 4.5 and had to start again! So I've reset the campaign backto it's original points values and trying again as Bill designed it! This time I'm going with. 1 x Moterized Panzer Gren Coy. 3 x Tiget platoons 1 x Flame panzer section! Plan is to leave the trucks behind and safe for the first battle, and hope that I can get then all upgraded fast to 1/2 tracks!

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Post #: 21
- 12/23/2000 11:47:00 AM   
victorhauser

 

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All of my fallschirmjager squads look like halftracks in v4.5 alas. Is there anything I can do to make them look like infantry again?

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Post #: 22
- 12/23/2000 2:03:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

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Victor, sounds like some faulty icons. Let me check that. Question, do you use a different German OOB from that which game with 4.5? WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 23
- 12/23/2000 2:06:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

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Igor, no they weren't. Where in the world did that 105mm gun come from? It is not listed in the aux units that already come in the battle. What is the unit (it's designation)? I'd like to look into that. Historically, nearly all the heavy equipment was abandoned including artillery in order to escape the Soviet pursuit. WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Wild Bill Wilder
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Post #: 24
- 12/23/2000 2:09:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

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I tried that once, Dave, no support points and no repair points. It was too challenging One tends (or at least I did) to become protective of their units to the degree that affects play. Not being able to replace losses just did not work in a long campaign. In a short one it just might do okay. Charles22 does have a very valid point about the breakdowns. It would be a problem with that option on. You get enough of them with it off ! I'll take another look at the idea. Thanks... Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games [This message has been edited by Wild Bill (edited December 23, 2000).]

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Wild Bill Wilder
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Post #: 25
- 12/23/2000 2:14:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

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My pleasure, FM! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I think you were wise to upgrade to Tigers. Few battles portray their power in battle like this one, at least for me. They saved my butt more than once Wild Bill

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Wild Bill Wilder
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Post #: 26
- 12/23/2000 4:00:00 PM   
Igor

 

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Regarding the 105: I went back and checked all the wounded; AC0 is carrying the gun in slot 4, AC1 and AD1&2 are carrying panzerfausts. So it seems that either the glitch is in one unit, or that squad won a really high stakes poker game. And as far as heavy equipment goes; even if there was no impetus to lighten the load; how the heck could they be carrying along a several ton gun? On a bicycle half hidden by recoil absorbers? Btw; I managed to push a platoon of Panthers all the way past the hill to fend off the tanks persuing the various escaping units. I can only imagine that the various infantry stumbling through the snowy night were glad to see them lined up off the road there... [This message has been edited by Igor (edited December 23, 2000).]

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Post #: 27
- 12/23/2000 6:43:00 PM   
skukko


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Charles22: Your point of Panzerschreck is what I've noticed too, good that you mentioned it here, may help someone. I started WF last night to find out what is so hard in it WB: those sovjet infantry (who use warptechnology to get in the village) at first battle had no chance. They took out few single soldiers. (My losses so far, yet 6 turns to go. Objectives nearly finished) Poor guys arrived to the village just after I had secured area with two infantry companies. I have, besides infantry, one platoon and one section of Tigers. Infantry has 75mmAT:s with opels. And for Sturmovics I have 20mmflakvirgl platoon. Way I've handled this can be said in few words: Tracked FO recons and infantry moves one step at the time. Mg:s and 4 Tigers have stable positions. 2 Tigers loaded with infantry are moving right after FO and are ready to deal with anything. And I don't use any roads, so I found one mine also. Infantry rules at my core, they take out all that is in range of their AT weapons. Tanks do the rest. mosh

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Post #: 28
- 12/23/2000 7:44:00 PM   
Dave_R

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: I tried that once, Dave, no support points and no repair points. It was too challenging One tends (or at least I did) to become protective of their units to the degree that affects play. Not being able to replace losses just did not work in a long campaign. In a short one it just might do okay. Charles22 does have a very valid point about the breakdowns. It would be a problem with that option on. You get enough of them with it off ! I'll take another look at the idea. Thanks... Wild Bill
Perhaps a half way measure on this might work Bill. I know that I have a couple of books coming from Santa on the Chindit campaign of March 43 to September 43. I'll be able to get a better idea of the campaign that I'd like to but together with them, but an initial idea might go like this. Long March phase March to April - This would cover two or three battles, with the emphasis being on getting across the map with minimal casualties. These would have no support or rebuild after each battle. Taking airstrips and 'White City'phase. A couple of possible battles here, where if the player does well then has a big rebuild, and lots of paras for support. Raiding and Japanese counter attack phase. Open to several battles, with limited rebuild and senairio specific support. Withdrawl phase. Perhaps a couple of rearguard actions as troops are airlifted out, or a running battle to get back to friendly lines if airstrips are lost. again here there would be no rebuild and limited support. That's the initial outline, obviouisly it'll be tuned in tighter as I do my research

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Post #: 29
- 12/24/2000 1:27:00 AM   
Warhorse


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Uh, so I'm a slacker, and all that, where to get this gem?? It's not on the scenario depot, WB, where is it!! ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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