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RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 5:36:46 AM   
bwheatley

 

Posts: 3650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Check your morale Oleg, that and fuel will hamper you. My Romanians do good to get 3 hexes without resistance.


I know it will I'm OK with anything I went through so far, every humiliating defeat, every anti-Soviet rule, every unit being trampled on by the German hob nailed boot

My time will come.

So far I haven't seen anything really problematic with the game, except for heavily one sided whining on the forum Knock on wood, hope to stay that way.



Well there is what you call "whining" (ie constructive criticism) and then there are people who post inflammatory things (ie calling people "whiners"). People like myself who are balanced comment on things on both ends. 1) Working on being more realistic with german winter when a player preps more then happened in history. 2) Being more realistic with soviet units being encircled and suddenly on their turn losing all their CV even though it is the same turn as when you got encircled.
Those are two of the biggest things i dislike with how they were implemented. Instead of quietly sucking it up and dealing with it like you. I and others choose to discuss it so something might be done to make it better.

I want a game that is going to be fun to play on either side. I've played both sides and see issues with both sides. :)

You're entitled to your thoughts on anyone but is calling someone a whiner really going to do anything productive for the forums?

I also agree the soviet run away thing is silly. You will see if you retreat too quickly you're really only shooting yourself in the foot and helping the germans have a much better 42 offensive.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 91
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 6:09:58 AM   
abulbulian


Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Well these types of meaningless and non-objective comments by Oleg Mastruko doesn't surprise me. He has offered nothing constructive IMO to date and I believe by now is just being ignored by the people that will be making the decisions on future changes. They are looking for data and not somebody just name calling others 'axis fanboys' or 'whiners' who have significant data that shows some adjustments are needed for play balance as intended.

I'll be glad to see when other axis players get to blizzard and through to spring 42 what kind of shape they are in.





< Message edited by abulbulian -- 1/26/2011 6:13:08 AM >

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Post #: 92
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 6:16:37 AM   
notenome

 

Posts: 608
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		Crazy idea just poped into my mind. Has anyone tried lowering Axis Max TOE to 50% for all units during the winter (except mountain divs)? Your units can't hold a line anyways, and the atrittion is the real killer, so setting Max TOE lower should significantly reduce casualties (and therefore experience loss). Then when the blizzards are gone you can bump the TOE back up and have your experienced landsers who wintered at home filter back to their units. You'll loose more territory but this is Russia, land is cheap.

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Post #: 93
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 6:20:16 AM   
abulbulian


Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah, but do we know for sure that units in the manpower pool retain exp? Also, you still lose moral like crazy because the sov player can keep attack you ... with hasty attack as I found out and still win. So how far do you march back?

Also, the setting of the TOE to 50% doesn't seems to be a slow process even for units on rail in my experience.

So not sure this would work very well...but you could try it.



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Post #: 94
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 6:30:52 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Easy guys, let us not start a flame war, that will not solve anything. I am sitting at Turn 24 right now, just waiting for the turn to come back.

I second the "I will wait until I confirm I won't take a huge exp hit first". I am going to compare my turn 25 TOE upgrades with turn 24 and see what I see.

< Message edited by 2ndACR -- 1/26/2011 6:47:07 AM >

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Post #: 95
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 9:45:06 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		We are starting to pick up some worthwhile data, and we are picking up hints on things that might need to be looked at. The post-blizzard figures we are seeing all show that the Axis manpower numbers are recovering well - no one has been below the 3 million that the Germans start the 1942 campaign, but we now need to look at combat effectiveness, experience and morale levels, to see how much variance there is.

It also looks like Axis inability to capture key manpower centres is allowing the Red Army to recruit large numbers of additional men - the recruitment multiplier in 1941 is quite high.

So it looks like the challenge for the Axis Player remains reducing Red Army strength, while capturing the Manpower centres to prevent them recovering their strength. This then leads to the ability to get Kharkov and the Donbas cities before the blizzard, and still be able to put a decent defence together. Personally I am finding this very hard to do, and am having to send many more Panzers divisions south than were there historically, this in turn means I can't get close to Tula and Voronezh.

Keep the info coming.


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Post #: 96
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 10:06:29 AM   
*Lava*


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
It also looks like Axis inability to capture key manpower centres is allowing the Red Army to recruit large numbers of additional men - the recruitment multiplier in 1941 is quite high.


So IOWs you are saying it is more important to stay focused on taking major cities rather than inflicting lots of casualties early because down the line it doesn't matter how many casualties you inflict as the Axis, if the Soviets hold lots of cities they will recover and overwhelm no matter how many you whack in 1941.

Sounds like the Axis should spend minimum time on the south and focus everything he can get his hands on in taking Leningrad and Moscow.

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Post #: 97
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 10:15:55 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Broadly speaking, if I got Leningrad, but didn't get the southern cities then the numbers would be about level, so the challenge definitely is to get more than the historical achievement i.e. Moscow/Leningrad in addition to Kharkov and the Donbas. I also found that allocating the resources to get Leningrad meant they where not available to help the Push in the South, so there is a real balancing act for Axis players to work out.

Personally, I am tending towards a much more southern strategy, having seen the potential power of a bridgehead in the Kuban and the better weather in that sector means you can get a head start in 1942 for a drive on Baku, but I need to check out the supply situation down there to see how many units the Kuban can support..

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Post #: 98
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 10:54:15 AM   
colberki

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/16/2007
Status: offline 		I also say it's too early to say game is unbalanced either way. The HQ build up option is a powerful option if used correctly could pocket lots of cocky Soviets. Few of us have played enough, then play without basic mistakes and finally play well. Let's keep sharing data and experiences. My own observation is the Axis side seems to need better play to be still with a long term chance of avoiding defeat written on the wall by May 1942

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Post #: 99
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 11:09:33 AM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 565
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quote:

ORIGINAL: colberki

I also say it's too early to say game is unbalanced either way. The HQ build up option is a powerful option if used correctly could pocket lots of cocky Soviets. Few of us have played enough, then play without basic mistakes and finally play well. Let's keep sharing data and experiences. My own observation is the Axis side seems to need better play to be still with a long term chance of avoiding defeat written on the wall by May 1942


That’s true I got very high unnecessary casualties as playing Axis on my first game because I didn’t realize that you could manually repair most important rail lines faster with those repair units that what automatic system do. Not using faster manual rail repair at all caused that deeper I got inside soviet union less supplied my troops where and I had to fight supplies very low witch made me suffer pretty big casualties in the long run. It really has huge impact if there is even one rail line coming intact pretty close or none at all.

Playing Soviets tolerate more errors than playing Axis.

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Post #: 100
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 1:30:17 PM   
raizer

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/6/2010
Status: offline 		Im of the opinion that certain russian units should run away from certain terrain areas and certain terrain areas deserve massive resistance...you need to mix it up as the russians. 

Mynok and Acr have me thinking about that mynok gambit....I think that for the germans, lennigrad is a trap in pbem.  There are just too many swamp hexes, with easy rail access for the soviets to move stuff in and out of.  I think the move to the south, where there are numerous pop centers and easier terrain to mount panzer offensives over larger areas is the way to go.  More open ground, less swamps, less rail hexes to key blocking points. Lennigrad is just one big opportunity for the soviet player to canalize  your precious and limited panzers. 


< Message edited by raizer -- 1/26/2011 1:32:51 PM >

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Post #: 101
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 1:37:55 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Raizer: if you are running away anywhere past the Dnepr, you're doing it wrong. It's true that the north had more adverse terrain. But a runaway in the south will blow up in your face if you do it past the Dnepr.

And if you runaway straight to the Dnepr without imposing some kind of delay, you won't have time to dig in and fortify...and the Germans may bounce the river. And then you'll be in a real pickle. Because it's wide open panzer country down south and the Donbas is rich in industry and manpower.

A runaway in the center means the Germans get a shot at Moscow with plenty of sunshine left over. You have to slow them down there, too.

Running away isn't the answer. It really is not. A first class German player will crap all over you.

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Post #: 102
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 1:39:16 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Gentlemen you can't fight in here, this is a war room!

(Sorry, I needed to say that - but this is an ideas thread, like a seiminar, I don't think it should be like an internet forum...)

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Post #: 103
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 1:41:02 PM   
raizer

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/6/2010
Status: offline 		no Im saying, run away to the rivers and leave certain stuff in checkerboard, whatever that you dont mind losing...but Im running away with those early units that I think I can salvage into something.  Balance between giving up units for time and space but also preserving something that can form up behind natural defense lines.

The hardest part for me in sov pbem is dealing with the clutter in the opening turns. I think one way to reduce it is to go checkerboard and let the stuff die and parcel out units that you start to notice and "care about lol",... give them the good leaders and move them to the rear defense areas.

< Message edited by raizer -- 1/26/2011 1:45:47 PM >

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Post #: 104
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 1:50:06 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I generally expend the frontier armies west of the Dnepr and dig in with reserves and reinforcements. The only stuff I try to get out is the motorized divisions, and that's for AP farming purposes.

Many Soviet players have this mistaken idea they should be saving the tank divisions. These are rather useless. It's the rifle divisions that really matter in 1941.



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Post #: 105
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 2:02:51 PM   
raizer

 

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Status: offline 		you go static with them and acquire APs?

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Post #: 106
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 2:13:04 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		AXIS think tank.

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Post #: 107
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 2:14:58 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Bob, I'm trying to drive a stake through the heart of the runaway vampire here. And to show that this is an Axis non problem.



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Post #: 108
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 2:23:40 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
Well these types of meaningless and non-objective comments by Oleg Mastruko doesn't surprise me. He has offered nothing constructive IMO to date and I believe by now is just being ignored


Unlike you, who start a new "INSANITY!!!", "MADNESS!!" threads every other day, when your Panzer Death Stars suffer 10 casualties from unworthy Sovs?

I am here among other things to have fun. Forum Drama Queens, and you most definitely are one, are sure way to have some fun......

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Post #: 109
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 2:26:30 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Guys, please, no need for the name calling. We all want to have fun, and make a great game better. Everyone has different ways of expressing themselves, and English is not always everyone's first language. Please respect this.

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Post #: 110
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 2:30:55 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Guys, please, no need for the name calling. We all want to have fun, and make a great game better. Everyone has different ways of expressing themselves, and English is not always everyone's first language. Please respect this.


One way to do that would be to restrain from naming threads "madness, insanity this is Sparta...." for what appears to be really laughable complaint. Practically everyone in the "insanity" threads said that Ara's "insane" results seem pretty normal and are nothing to get nervous about.

When a guy does that repeatedly, I think I am entitled to call him Drama Queen. Are we all so politically correct that even a Drama Queen is an insult??

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Post #: 111
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 2:34:43 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		I'm not a moderator, but I did start this thread. It has gone off topic, so I think I can draw attention to that. I cannot control what other people call their threads. I understand it is often done to grab everyone's attention, but the author has to deal with the attention, good or bad.

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Post #: 112
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 3:11:59 PM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
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From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

I'm not a moderator, but I did start this thread. It has gone off topic, so I think I can draw attention to that. I cannot control what other people call their threads. I understand it is often done to grab everyone's attention, but the author has to deal with the attention, good or bad.

This is just what I was afraid of Big A. A good intention getting muddy. Let us hope that all of us can refocus on what this thread if for, especially if it helps out the developers and testers out in there jobs to provide us with a better product in the end.

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Post #: 113
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 3:21:49 PM   
sross

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 6/16/2009
Status: offline 		I have only played the AI, which is probably the best ever. My longest game is going right now on turn 90 something as the Axis. I would like to see the ability to create support units and HQ's for both sides, not just the SU. At least HQ's for Axis, but SU's would be a welcome addition. Especially as the war goes on, it seems like I lose 4 arty bn's for every one I gain. There is all sorts of unused equipment in the pools that could be used for SU's and lord knows I have a couple extra AP's laying around.

I understand that this is a historical game for the Axis OOB, but it would be nice to have a little input to shape it. I'd also like to be able to build more fighter squadrons, never seem to have enough of those even though I have thousands of planes in the pools.

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Post #: 114
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 3:25:36 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
It also looks like Axis inability to capture key manpower centres is allowing the Red Army to recruit large numbers of additional men - the recruitment multiplier in 1941 is quite high.

So it looks like the challenge for the Axis Player remains reducing Red Army strength, while capturing the Manpower centres to prevent them recovering their strength. This then leads to the ability to get Kharkov and the Donbas cities before the blizzard, and still be able to put a decent defence together. Personally I am finding this very hard to do, and am having to send many more Panzers divisions south than were there historically, this in turn means I can't get close to Tula and Voronezh.

Keep the info coming.



Hi BigAnorak,

I get ur point, that said i've played a couple of vs AI Axis CGs now, capturing both Leningrad and Moscow. So going beyond what u describe. I've thot of pointing it out earlier and chatted a bit with Joel about it.
With the current evacuation rules and my experince of how it works im not sure how much effect taking Kharkov and Donbas cities would make.
I've been sorta attentive to this point and even if u make sure that soviets only get one evac roll on cities if at all possible. U many times see those cities with 5-6-7 pop points left after the single evac. I mean 5-6 cities with lets say 6 points each is 36 points plus surrounding minor cities shouldnt be more than 100 pop points setting a high figur. Thats 5,500 in '41 and 5000 men lost per turn. Ofc its some thing, but i dont see it making a huge difference.

I tried to research it a bit but as i dont speak any russian im pretty much left with sources in english where the relability of the figurs is prolly questionble. Im sure Pavel can do much better with sources.
Non the less the figurs in those english sources is between 1-2m officially evacuated. Prolly more on own hand, but still.
Thats with 2m, 40 pop points. I see lots more evacuated currently.

Other than that there are some holes, i can understand from a game mechanism point of view but still from sense point of view makes little sense.
Historicly tho surronded Leningrad wasnt massivly evacuated.
Taken it a few times where its been totally surrounded including Lake Lagoda it usually only has around 20% left of the pop and the rest is evaced. How 2-3 million people can sneak through german lines is ofc some thing of a mystery.
U could ofc argue they been evaced before hand. Point here being historicly there is nothing to support that would happen on such a large scale.
The real funny thing is ofc if u leave it to '42 before u capture non is evaced tho its the exact same situasion.
Sure i understand u have to make some rules and the simpler usually the better, but it does leave some non sense situasion.
In 1 game where i had taken both Moscow and Leningrad tho both totally surrounded the evac of those cities was pretty complete. Chita had a population of just below 20mil. Thats several times the population of Moscow. Thats alot of houses that have to be build in the mongolian winter to support that amount of people.
Again chit happens with randomness but it wasnt like it was the only city people had evaced too, so it says alot of amount of evacing that currently takes place in game.

Maybe there should be some modifiers, like from isolation and so on. The futher east u go the less evacs and so on so less is evaced.
Other than that the strain it would put on the RR evacing so large numbers doesnt seem to be counted into RR capacity.
In some sense u are penalized as axis for doing well in '41 vs '42 where there is no evac any more.
Sorry for semi russian side high jacking the thread but u brought it up.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 1/26/2011 4:07:33 PM >

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 115
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 3:33:22 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		Yes we did have a lot of debate about the evacuations, but as you noted trying to change things too much would complicate matters. I think we need to see more SU OOB numbers when the Axis have captured more manpower centres.

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Post #: 116
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 3:45:58 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Ok giving some numbers then. in the game mentioned. Leningrad, Vyshny Volocheck, Kalinin, Moscow, Tula, Kursk and Stalino was the line held after winter. Had gone some what beyound before blizzard set in. At end of the last snow turn in nov i had Soviet OOB at 1.98m. After Blizzard it was at 5,7m. After mud 7,2m. So it didnt seem to dent the abillity to regain manpower particular much. which surprised me a bit. Do note it wasnt until after this i payed particular attention, trying to lower the number of evac rolls for each hex. Tho for example moscow all fell with 1 roll for each hex.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 1/26/2011 6:26:03 PM >

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 117
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 3:50:01 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline
quote:

Ok giving some numbers then. in the game mentioned. Leningrad, Vyshny Volocheck, Kalinin, Moscow, Tula, Kursk and Stalino was the line held after winter. Had goe some what beyound before blizzard set in. At end of the last snow turn in nov i had Soviet OOB at 1.98m. After Blizzard it was at 5,7m. After mud 7,2m. So it didnt seem to dent the abillity to regain manpower particular much. which surprised me a bit. Do note i wasnt until this i payed particular attention, trying to lower the number of evac rolls for each hex. Tho for example moscow all fell with 1 roll for each hex.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus


This was AI on normal? Those numbers look high to me. Might need a save for that.

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Post #: 118
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 3:52:29 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Yup AI normal.
I think i only have a save from turn 17 left from that game left but ill look. i have from other games tho.
Let me know if u want me to go look more closely and what u need in particular.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 1/26/2011 3:55:52 PM >

(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 119
RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/26/2011 3:57:04 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		If you have anything with the historical line + leningrad or moscow, post-blizzard, with SU OOB at more than 6 million, then this would be worth looking at.

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