RE: Axis Players Think Tank

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Axis Players Think Tank

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Axis Players Think Tank

Page: << < prev 2 3 4 5 [6]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/27/2011 8:52:23 PM

bwheatley

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Bob, I'm trying to drive a stake through the heart of the runaway vampire here. And to show that this is an Axis non problem.

While this seems like a Soviet-oriented point, it really does belong here. I have not seen one suggestion as to how an Axis player is going to deal with a Sir Robinevskey strategy. I've been pondering it myself.

While my experience is limited so an AI GC and a lot of scenario playing, I'm coming to realize I need to make the following changes in my Axis methodology:

1) Pay attention to details. It is easy to overlook possible means that the Soviets can disrupt your LOC and your pockets. I'm two turns behind now in my RTL game against a human.

2) Get better at logistics, which essentially means get better at rail repair. This is very hard because we don't control most of our rail repair.

3) Know thy enemy. I need to play the Soviets more.

if your enemy sir robins. Then help him out by taking all his high manpower cities. That makes sure his numbers are going to take longer to spring back. And you'll get to his throat before he has time to build a decent line. I agree with flav. If i had pulled back my forces ara would have gotten moscow and kursk and orel (he got kharkov) before winter.

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 151

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/27/2011 8:57:37 PM

bwheatley

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Haudrauf1962

quote:

I doubt you have to run away that far east. It's possible to give Germans logistical fits between Minsk and Moscow. Wasting all that space just denies you the opportunity to make some counterattacks while some of the units are in red supply.

You miss a couple of counter attacks - but you save a lot of forces. Just avoid combat and only fight on river lines to delay. The Blizzard will do all the dirty work for you

There is nothing the soviets have before 42 that will give a german player anything to think twice about unless those forces are dug into deep level 4 forts (maybe 3 in good terrain). Besides anything rifles or tank divisions/brigades you lose come back later. I suppose we could have someone play a soviet game with an AAR showing the run away defense. Then watch an axis player tear the soviets up.

(in reply to MrLongleg)

Post #: 152

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/27/2011 9:06:30 PM

randallw

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline

Andy ( Sabre21 ) stated there were some test campaigns where the Soviet player made a pullback from turn 1, all the way to Leningrad and Moscow at best pullback rate; the Axis player got there quicker ( by calendar ) and mowed through the level 4 fort areas to take the cities.

(in reply to bwheatley)

Post #: 153

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/27/2011 9:16:35 PM

Walloc

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline

Hi Joel,

File send. Do note this is not from one attack, but several attacks. My point being manual say max 5 per turn, not per attack.
It might be that the intend is to be a max of 5 per attack and not per turn. Just noting if so, manual is off then.
If so maybe it should be considered if the limit should be as per manual be limited per turn not per attack as its working now.

Also i've seen several times that if u succesfully attack a city/urban hex u first get a evac attempt for that and u should get ownership of the hex from the succesfull attack. Non the less when u actually occupy the hex another evac roll is done. In effect even with one succesfull attack giving 2 evac rolls making 10 not 5 evacing pop possible.
Note this far from happens all the time, but it does happen. So its hard to get a save of this.
Just wanted to throw that into the mix in any possible consideration

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 1/27/2011 9:17:36 PM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 154

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/28/2011 2:29:32 AM

Sabre21

Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Andy ( Sabre21 ) stated there were some test campaigns where the Soviet player made a pullback from turn 1, all the way to Leningrad and Moscow at best pullback rate; the Axis player got there quicker ( by calendar ) and mowed through the level 4 fort areas to take the cities.

I've seen testers create a defensive wall usually between Vyzama and Moscow thinking they were safe. All that did was allow my army to get all that much closer to Moscow without having to fight. I don't consider falling back to the Dnepr as a Sir Robin tactic, but unless you leave some delaying forces, the Dnepr can and will be easily breached. I love it though when the Soviet player Sir Robins all the way back to Vyzama - Kharkov - Stalino. Means I can capture a lot of territory with minimal casualties and usually be sitting in Moscow and Leningrad before mud hits sipping Vodka. You ever see what two full strength panzer armies used in echelon led by a corps of 4 heavily reinforced SS divisions led by Manstein can do to a linear defense? From a German perspective, it brings tears of joy, to the Soviets..it's tears of agony.

As Flavio pointed out, you can double team an FBD in the center and down south to get maximum range on rail repair. There is a range limit on how far from a rail head you can repair though, so keep that in mind. You can also place the bulk of the repair units in the Corps Hq's so they won't repair beyond 5 hexes of where the Hq is. This helps focus repairs where you want to make your main advance. Since the Soviets are running, use your air, including bombers to refuel and resupply your units. If need be you can also motorize several infantry divisions to keep up with the panzers giving them extra protection, but I've never had to do that yet because I clear the way with my panzers allowing the infantry to move that much quicker on the following turn.

Overall suggestions for the German player, regardless of the Soviet strategy is to keep the pressure on the Soviets and don't allow them to build a cohesive defense. Take their cities whenever possible to force them to use rail to evacuate factories and deny them replacement manpower. Encircle Soviet forces whenever possible but never give up the momentum just to trap a few units. Maneuver is your friend, use it wisely and try and keep from getting bogged down in a drawn out fight beteen your panzers and the Soviet infantry too often or you will lose the intiative and then you will fight on their terms and not yours.

Andy

< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 1/28/2011 2:31:54 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to randallw)

Post #: 155

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/28/2011 2:48:20 AM

stuman

Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Ah...now there's an interesting thought. However, you still have to deal with the movement chasm between panzers and infantry. If he's running away as fast as he can, you will eventually run into his mass of fleeing hordes and then your panzer group will come to a screeching halt lest it be surrounded by sheer numbers.

And of course there is the loss of the Zero bonus to consider.

Hmm, is this the wrong game to mention that ?

_____________________________

" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 156

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/28/2011 3:18:50 AM

Farfarer61

Posts: 713
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline

Nice idea witht he Repair battalions in the Corps HQs, and the tag team. I move the Army HQs forward ( once or twice, and by rail if possible) as I have been consistently pleasantly surpised by the choice of hexes the AI bots choose to repair. twice they saved my arse by connecting around areas I had neglected. Are they perfect? no. Are they good considering I expend Zero brainpower planning their reasonably focused activities? yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Andy ( Sabre21 ) stated there were some test campaigns where the Soviet player made a pullback from turn 1, all the way to Leningrad and Moscow at best pullback rate; the Axis player got there quicker ( by calendar ) and mowed through the level 4 fort areas to take the cities.

I've seen testers create a defensive wall usually between Vyzama and Moscow thinking they were safe. All that did was allow my army to get all that much closer to Moscow without having to fight. I don't consider falling back to the Dnepr as a Sir Robin tactic, but unless you leave some delaying forces, the Dnepr can and will be easily breached. I love it though when the Soviet player Sir Robins all the way back to Vyzama - Kharkov - Stalino. Means I can capture a lot of territory with minimal casualties and usually be sitting in Moscow and Leningrad before mud hits sipping Vodka. You ever see what two full strength panzer armies used in echelon led by a corps of 4 heavily reinforced SS divisions led by Manstein can do to a linear defense? From a German perspective, it brings tears of joy, to the Soviets..it's tears of agony.

As Flavio pointed out, you can double team an FBD in the center and down south to get maximum range on rail repair. There is a range limit on how far from a rail head you can repair though, so keep that in mind. You can also place the bulk of the repair units in the Corps Hq's so they won't repair beyond 5 hexes of where the Hq is. This helps focus repairs where you want to make your main advance. Since the Soviets are running, use your air, including bombers to refuel and resupply your units. If need be you can also motorize several infantry divisions to keep up with the panzers giving them extra protection, but I've never had to do that yet because I clear the way with my panzers allowing the infantry to move that much quicker on the following turn.

Overall suggestions for the German player, regardless of the Soviet strategy is to keep the pressure on the Soviets and don't allow them to build a cohesive defense. Take their cities whenever possible to force them to use rail to evacuate factories and deny them replacement manpower. Encircle Soviet forces whenever possible but never give up the momentum just to trap a few units. Maneuver is your friend, use it wisely and try and keep from getting bogged down in a drawn out fight beteen your panzers and the Soviet infantry too often or you will lose the intiative and then you will fight on their terms and not yours.

Andy

(in reply to Sabre21)

Post #: 157

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/28/2011 5:16:02 AM

bwheatley

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline

lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Ah...now there's an interesting thought. However, you still have to deal with the movement chasm between panzers and infantry. If he's running away as fast as he can, you will eventually run into his mass of fleeing hordes and then your panzer group will come to a screeching halt lest it be surrounded by sheer numbers.

And of course there is the loss of the Zero bonus to consider.

Hmm, is this the wrong game to mention that ?

(in reply to stuman)

Post #: 158

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/28/2011 5:45:27 AM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Ah...now there's an interesting thought. However, you still have to deal with the movement chasm between panzers and infantry. If he's running away as fast as he can, you will eventually run into his mass of fleeing hordes and then your panzer group will come to a screeching halt lest it be surrounded by sheer numbers.

And of course there is the loss of the Zero bonus to consider.

Hmm, is this the wrong game to mention that ?

The KV-1/T-34 bonus......

(in reply to stuman)

Post #: 159

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/28/2011 5:51:07 AM

jomni

Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
The KV-1/T-34 bonus......

What bonus? Individually they are nice but collectively, early Tank Divisions and Tank Brigades are "useless".

_____________________________

My Blog
Random Wargame Name Generator

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 160

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/30/2011 11:37:51 AM

karonagames

Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline

Just picking up on a theme in the War room thread, about "how can the axis "win"?", I wonder how many players have played the 25 turn Operation Barbarossa?

I am assuming that most PBEM players playing the 41 Campaign know that during 225 turns there will be many patches that will change the relative performance of the armies - for example the change in swamp/rough terrain combat that Joel just announced will make a big difference, and potentially weaken Leningrad's defences, and some changes may make one side or the other feel that they would rather restart the game with a particular update.

By playing Operation Barbarossa, which is 1/10th of the commitment of the full campaign, players can hone their offensive and defensive strategies without worrying about the Blizzard, and then commit to a campaign when some of the balance issues have been resolved.

_____________________________

It's only a Game

(in reply to jomni)

Post #: 161

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/31/2011 5:58:39 AM

colberki

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/16/2007
Status: offline

In my current PBEM 41 campaign game, it's T5 and my Axis opponent with clever use of the HQ build option have reached to 50 miles of Leningrad and just in front of Rzhev and Vyazma. About 20 Soviet units are cut off in the rear and Soviet losses are 1.2M men before accounting for the cut off units. Soviets still hold Kiev firmly but the threat from panzers near Vyazma means that we will have to abandon Kiev soon. So, from my standpoint, Axis certainly can "win" as defined by capturing Leningrad and Moscow in 1941 but kudos to the game design, it will not nearly be the near knock out as in WIR especially if 3.5M Soviets are available to counterattack in the blizzards!
The checkered defense is no match for 4-5 panzerkorps on HQ build up "steroids"! all that stands in front of AGN and AGC are half trained troops hoping supply and a lack if trucks to allow another round of HQ build up will save the two cities.

(in reply to PeeDeeAitch)

Post #: 162

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/31/2011 6:04:20 AM

randallw

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline

Those HQ buildups ought to be costing the truck pool to some significant level.

(in reply to colberki)

Post #: 163

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/31/2011 9:34:43 AM

karonagames

Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline

quote:

Those HQ buildups ought to be costing the truck pool to some significant level.

They do - over use it and the Axis won't have the gas for a 1942 offensive. HQ build-up should be a calculated risk that will gain major manpower centres - this benefit would definitely outweigh the cost.

_____________________________

It's only a Game

(in reply to randallw)

Post #: 164

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/31/2011 10:06:52 AM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
The KV-1/T-34 bonus......

What bonus? Individually they are nice but collectively, early Tank Divisions and Tank Brigades are "useless".

I was being sarcastic.......

(in reply to jomni)

Post #: 165

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/31/2011 2:16:17 PM

ComradeP

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline

Andy, it has been established by now that the current version is more difficult for the Axis than the version you played months ago where you cut through a Sir Robin defence, so not everything you say applies to the current version. For starters, I can only dream about making anything like the mobile unit breakthroughs you describe.

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 166

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/31/2011 7:54:13 PM

Pawsy

Posts: 339
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

Will those changes take affect in my current PBEM BA?

(in reply to ComradeP)

Post #: 167

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/31/2011 8:21:43 PM

karonagames

Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline

I am playing the proposed V3 version atm against Speedy, so yes swamps have stopped being roadblocks and have turned into speedbumps, and my replacement numbers have dropped through the floor.

_____________________________

It's only a Game

(in reply to Pawsy)

Post #: 168

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 1/31/2011 11:30:29 PM

Senno

Posts: 489
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

<snip>..... and my replacement numbers have dropped through the floor.

Any elaboration on that?

(in reply to karonagames)

Post #: 169

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 2/1/2011 12:56:28 AM

IronDuke_slith

Posts: 1595
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

We are starting to pick up some worthwhile data, and we are picking up hints on things that might need to be looked at. The post-blizzard figures we are seeing all show that the Axis manpower numbers are recovering well - no one has been below the 3 million that the Germans start the 1942 campaign, but we now need to look at combat effectiveness, experience and morale levels, to see how much variance there is.

It also looks like Axis inability to capture key manpower centres is allowing the Red Army to recruit large numbers of additional men - the recruitment multiplier in 1941 is quite high.

So it looks like the challenge for the Axis Player remains reducing Red Army strength, while capturing the Manpower centres to prevent them recovering their strength. This then leads to the ability to get Kharkov and the Donbas cities before the blizzard, and still be able to put a decent defence together. Personally I am finding this very hard to do, and am having to send many more Panzers divisions south than were there historically, this in turn means I can't get close to Tula and Voronezh.

Keep the info coming.

I think this is the key. I am playing a mirror against a good opponent (he beat me as Soviet in FitE for TOAW, he is a capable Guy)...anyway, we've arrived at Blizzard. I've killed about 3.3 Soviet, he's got 2.8, but my forces seem a lot more than 500k stronger (Most of my front line is held by maximum stacks and I have reserves). The chief difference (I'm guessing) is I hold about 100 points of population centre more than he does, which over the turns has kept plenty of bodies rolling in to my Soviet units that I am guessing has been denied him.

It seems to me the game is trying to create a balanced game for players of equal ability, but 1941 was about an operationally capable force fighting a more numerous, operationally challenged force. When the ponderous force doesn't allow itself to be herded into avoidable pockets, problems are going to arise quite naturally.

Likewise, if the Soviet player doesn't dissipate his strength during the blizzard by attacking everywhere, then he can mass ahistorically and cause a major problem. It also seems that whilst German values fall through the floor, Soviet ones also increase creating a double hit that is difficult to survive.

I do think there is some merit in the idea expressed earlier that a German player who digs in ahistorically early should get some blizzard relief. The reason for this is that the Germans didn't lack winter equipment, what they lacked was the logistical capability of bringing both it and ammunition/food forward at the same time.

Therefore, if a German player has suspended operations very early, dug in closer to his railheads and conserved supplies and ammo as a result of fighting fewer battles, it seems conceivable that more winter equipment could have been brought forward by a supply network that wasn't breaking down just trying to keep units supplied with ammo as it was historically. The downside for the German player here is that whilst he survives the blizzard in better shape, the Soviet player will have lost less ground (and hence lost less pop'n) and be stronger in the spring as well.

Rule wise, If the overall German ammo/supply figure with the units was above a certain level, I'd deem that supply capacity was being used to bring forward winter equipment. This would be a major effort, would reduce supplyto the units considerably and only cover a few units per turn, but it might reward the German player trying a more conservative strategy.

Level three/four forts also implies extensive trench networks with the accompanying bunkers for the troops. These should surely protect soldiers better than hastily dug foxholes hewn out of snow and frozen earth.

All of this is qualified by the caveat that this is otherwise a fantastic game.

Regards,
IronDuke

_____________________________

(in reply to karonagames)

Post #: 170

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 2/1/2011 9:37:44 AM

karonagames

Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline

quote:

Any elaboration on that?

I need to track the numbers for a few more turns, but I have a ton of reinforcement rifle divisions coming in the next couple of turns, and I am probably going to have to adjust TOE%s downwards to make sure they all get filled out.

_____________________________

It's only a Game

(in reply to IronDuke_slith)

Post #: 171

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 2/1/2011 9:49:08 AM

karonagames

Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline

quote:

I do think there is some merit in the idea expressed earlier that a German player who digs in ahistorically early should get some blizzard relief. The reason for this is that the Germans didn't lack winter equipment, what they lacked was the logistical capability of bringing both it and ammunition/food forward at the same time.

Therefore, if a German player has suspended operations very early, dug in closer to his railheads and conserved supplies and ammo as a result of fighting fewer battles, it seems conceivable that more winter equipment could have been brought forward by a supply network that wasn't breaking down just trying to keep units supplied with ammo as it was historically. The downside for the German player here is that whilst he survives the blizzard in better shape, the Soviet player will have lost less ground (and hence lost less pop'n) and be stronger in the spring as well.

I am really betwixt and between on this issue, as in all my tests, I was never a "digger", and I always tried to get to the Dec 1 historical front lines, and was quite happy to let the infantry fall back through the buffer zone I created, as long as I could keep the panzers in winter quarters, ready to take back lost ground in the March snow. The other thing I saw was that where I did dig level4, particularly in AGN's sector, the entrenchments held for 2-3 turns, but were gradually worn down and I was retreated out of them anyway.

If the choice is between facing a smaller Red Army in 1942 vs being in slightly better condition, I will take fighting a weaker Red Army, and rely on my ability to use my weaker army better than he can use his weaker army.

_____________________________

It's only a Game

(in reply to karonagames)

Post #: 172

RE: Axis Players Think Tank - 2/1/2011 6:57:50 PM

Senno

Posts: 489
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

quote:

Any elaboration on that?

I need to track the numbers for a few more turns, but I have a ton of reinforcement rifle divisions coming in the next couple of turns, and I am probably going to have to adjust TOE%s downwards to make sure they all get filled out.

OK, thanks for the infos.