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RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance

 
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RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/7/2011 6:43:32 PM   
rolypoly


Posts: 105
Joined: 2/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: matt.buttsworth
Possible Suggestions I can make:
1) strenthening blitzkrieg warfare (helps 41 or 42)
2) weakening the effect of the blizzards so that Germans can survive the winter in reasonable shape.
3) reducing soviet transport capacity so that rail transport is a limited resource and at some times russian players must choose between losing factories or shifting armies.
4) lowering morale and experience of many russian units in 1941 to reflect the fact that many ukrainian and caucaussus units did not want to fight
5) preventing more russian units from moving in turn 1 or turns 1-2 reflecting paralysis of Soviet command in first weeks of war.


I´d like to see these changes happening, before even trying out the 41-45 campaign. I hope you get your support...

(in reply to matt.buttsworth)
Post #: 31
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/7/2011 7:31:21 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Are we not being a bit premature here?

As I understand it, the air situation for the Germans is due to be fixed, and the swamp bug is due to be fixed

Certainly the air fatigue will make a difference, and the swamp defences will make holding Leningrad in particular a lot harder

And just what is wrong with a wargame that means you have to defend skilfully for a substantial period of time?


(in reply to rolypoly)
Post #: 32
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/7/2011 7:34:49 PM   
matt.buttsworth

 

Posts: 886
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Weimar, Germany
Status: offline 		See how the fixes go.

Hopefully they go very well.

As Soviets I have completely smashed my German opponent by end of January 1942.
He has no hope of skillful defense.
He has been destroyed.

That is not good.

MB

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 33
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/7/2011 7:42:16 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: matt.buttsworth

Gentlemen,
It appears we are locked in an increasingly acrimonious argument that is unnecessary.

I'm not trying to be a douche because I'm some internet troll.
Aurelian's response was simply that 'you little people are too small-minded to understand big concepts and thus it would be a waste of my precious breath to even deign to explain said concepts to you' which is accurately characterized in some adjectives in my response.

If a player feels that Germany had no capability to win the war, then please describe to me where the fun is in playing this historical simulation AT ALL?

If a player feels that the Soviet side should be unfettered by the Command and Control and/or logistics problems that plagued the Soviets from 6/41 to about 6/43, then why should the Germans be tied down the 1941/42 winter supply problems? Or the Finnish no-attack/no-move line? Or the Romanians entering the war late? Or Turkey not entering the war with the capture of Baku?

There is a group of advocates who appear to just want a game that shows Hitler was an idiot/madman (which isn't in dispute) and seem to me to want a game that punishes German play from start to end. A) I don't want to play that game. And B) I disagree that Germany had no chance to win the war on the Eastern front up until about 1943 (if Stalingrad had never happened).

My only ambition is to play a part in honing WitE to be a fun game for players of equal skill to play, on either side. THAT game sells more copies, by the way...




(in reply to matt.buttsworth)
Post #: 34
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/7/2011 7:50:14 PM   
Zort

 

Posts: 684
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Status: offline 		I am wondering if anyone who is advocating massive changes has played a game by changing some of the initial settings, reduce the sov rail, reduce their moral, give the germans higher things per the settings.  If someone did that and tested it, those changes might be the new default.  Just wondering.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 35
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/7/2011 7:57:04 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		I don't think that is fair at all

I think, as I have posted, that advocating change is a bit premature as fixes still have to implemented in two crucial areas.

Have a look at the QBall - VanBeenie AAR, and the Germans are doing fantastically, against a human opponent who hasn't really made any major mistakes.

A very successful German '41 turn gives the Germans a real chance in '42, and it is possible with good play.

Not that I've managed good play yet btw!

(in reply to Zort)
Post #: 36
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/7/2011 8:02:42 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
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From: Nashville TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I don't think that is fair at all

I think, as I have posted, that advocating change is a bit premature as fixes still have to implemented in two crucial areas.

Have a look at the QBall - VanBeenie AAR, and the Germans are doing fantastically, against a human opponent who hasn't really made any major mistakes.

A very successful German '41 turn gives the Germans a real chance in '42, and it is possible with good play.

Not that I've managed good play yet btw!


I'm not advocating anything specific be done in a hurry or without adequate consideration of the programming difficulty, or play balance outcome (rather than intention).

I am, however, asserting that the Soviet side benefits more from the Min/Max possibilities (that are inevitably created by any abstracted game mechanic) created from unified, omniscient player command than does the Axis. I am also arguing that this is disturbingly a-historic.

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 37
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/7/2011 8:22:28 PM   
alfonso

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

If a player feels that Germany had no capability to win the war, then please describe to me where the fun is in playing this historical simulation AT ALL?



Trying to hold Berlin. If you keep it, you do not lose. I have never seen Berlin taken in a PBEM (it is still too soon). Everybody is assuming it will fall, but I haven't seen it yet. Perhaps in the future we will hear complains from the Soviet side: "it is impossible to reach Berlin!!!"

Personally, I like the idea of playing the weaker side (because I mostly play vs. the AI). I like Germany in 1944

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 38
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/7/2011 11:37:04 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		I agree with the guy who feels that having Germany get a good chance to win in 1941 is probably too much; the countries that surrendered were small enough for the German Army to mostly capture after a month or two, and the population base and infrastructure too small to get reserves and replacement formations deployed/created to stop the intruders.

The way Germany approached the invasion may be highly ironic; it was felt the best chance to win would be a short war, but as that early plan did not work exactly as planned they stayed with it, even though a modification to a longer war ( what they were trying to avoid ) may have helped in the big picture.

(in reply to alfonso)
Post #: 39
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/8/2011 12:34:15 AM   
bevans

 

Posts: 109
Joined: 1/27/2011
Status: offline 		The Germans should have very little chance of winning in '41 as it is not really credible that the Soviets would have collapsed to a regime as ugly as Nazi Germany even if they lost Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov and beyond. There is simply no downside in continuing the fight, especially with the Germans clearly unprepared to contine the war through winter. A really good player should be able to do at least as well as Germany in '41 and be able to go on the offensive again in '42 with a chance of, if not total victory, ensuring that they won't lose. For a game that loudly proclaims historical accuracy, this is surprisingly difficult to do as the Germans. It seems to me that the developers wanted to make sure that the Germans had to play with the historical liabilities and errors they had/made. Not so much for the Soviets. The developers clearly lost their way and turned the game into a grind for the Axis from about the 4th turn, at leat on Difficult. So much detail, so little fun.

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 40
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/8/2011 2:15:25 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Even if there are tweaks to help the Axis player; if the Axis player can get an auto-win around 20 wins in, that could decrease the fun factor for the Soviet player.

In the long run, no matter what is done or not done, it may be very rare for human vs human campaigns to reach near the full turn length.  One side will feel doomed about his current situation and just give up, or neither player may have enough VPs to win and the game ends in a draw.  All those hours invested for a draw?  Much disappointment all around.

(in reply to bevans)
Post #: 41
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/8/2011 3:38:01 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		As I read somewhere, if you win, it's only a game. If you lose it was a big frigging waste of time.

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 42
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/8/2011 5:42:01 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Spoken like a bourgeoisie paternalist.


Is that the best you can do?

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 43
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/8/2011 5:55:05 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I'm not trying to be a douche because I'm some internet troll


Not something you really have to try....

Maybe I need to speak slowly. This.................is..........................not.............................a............................game.............................of....................say...............HPS.............................Gettysburg.

A...............................division..................................is..................................not...................................lined.......................................up..................like....................................a.......................................regiment........................................of...............................Heth's........................................division................You...............................have.......................................a.....................................much........................................larger...........................unit..............................in......................which................................................its.......................................entire........................................strength...........................is.................not....................in........................................................a.......................................pretty........................................line.

You.............................also....................................have................................it..................................influemce.................................the.........................area.................................................around...................................................it..................................................Called.................................ZOCs.


If..................................you................................want...................................examples.....................................we......................................can..................start......................................with................................Tactics...............................II........................................to..................................Panzer.....................Blitz.....................................................to............................................Stalingrad..................................................to...........................all....................................the.......................................editions............................................of...................................Russian.................................Campaign..............................................or................................Third......................Reich..............................Both................editions.....................of.............War................in....................the.......................East...........................................War...........................in..............................the................................West.........................War..........................in................................Europe...................................to...........................Russia.........................Beseiged.

Was that slow enough?

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 44
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/8/2011 6:18:58 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		Recognize your betters, Aurelian, and move on.
This is the last I'll address your over-inflated sense of importance.
You're not in my league, and you know full well that to be true.
You have no substance, and are just noise.


< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 2/8/2011 6:28:36 AM >

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 45
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/8/2011 11:26:16 PM   
bloomstombs2

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 1/21/2011
Status: offline 		Aurelian,

How come you used gettysburgh as an example and not toaw? I would say toaw and this game have alot more in common than that.

And Toaw also has divisions,even scenarios on corps level.

And flank attacks.

How can you have a incredibly detailed combat log where flanking never comes into play?

Lets put it this way.

When a units are encircled, theres a huge penalty.

So why not some what penalty for a partial surround. Thats flanking attacks.

Thats why it was implemented in toaw and many other similar genres.


(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 46
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 4:55:28 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Ok.

Stalingrad, all editions. Russian Campaign, all editions. Secomd Front IIRC. Russia Beseiged. Stalin's War. The SPW series. (in that one, IIRC, the defender gets to chose the terrain modifier when attacked across multiple sides. So I guess WiTE should have that then? By the logic that is being espoused, it should.) Panzerblitz/Leader. Third Reich. SPI's War Between the States. War in the East (!st and 2nd) War in the West. War in Europe. Imperium Romanim. Dozens more, but if some don't get it by now...............

I see that there is no flank or rear attack during air combat either. And yet, no complaints.

TOAW? Isn't the current version the one in which your turn could end at any time?

Tell me. In Gettysburg, Waterloo, any game of that ilk, it is possible to get a flank bonus on a batallion or a regiment. Do these units exert a ZOC in all six hexsides?

Are you telling me that a division equipped with weapons that are far superior to a musket or a 12lbr is going to line up in a neat line? Tell me, just how could it have a zone of control in the six surrounding hexes if it's facing everything in one direction.

And if your precious unit gets a +1, whu not get a -3 for exposing it's rear end to a unit it may ignore?

I said that it doesn't work at this scale. This isn't a tactical level game.



< Message edited by Aurelian -- 2/10/2011 5:03:38 AM >

(in reply to bloomstombs2)
Post #: 47
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 8:18:17 AM   
saintsup

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: La Celle Saint-Clouud
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Ok.

Stalingrad, all editions. Russian Campaign, all editions. Secomd Front IIRC. Russia Beseiged. Stalin's War. The SPW series. (in that one, IIRC, the defender gets to chose the terrain modifier when attacked across multiple sides. So I guess WiTE should have that then? By the logic that is being espoused, it should.) Panzerblitz/Leader. Third Reich. SPI's War Between the States. War in the East (!st and 2nd) War in the West. War in Europe. Imperium Romanim. Dozens more, but if some don't get it by now...............

I see that there is no flank or rear attack during air combat either. And yet, no complaints.

TOAW? Isn't the current version the one in which your turn could end at any time?

Tell me. In Gettysburg, Waterloo, any game of that ilk, it is possible to get a flank bonus on a batallion or a regiment. Do these units exert a ZOC in all six hexsides?

Are you telling me that a division equipped with weapons that are far superior to a musket or a 12lbr is going to line up in a neat line? Tell me, just how could it have a zone of control in the six surrounding hexes if it's facing everything in one direction.

And if your precious unit gets a +1, whu not get a -3 for exposing it's rear end to a unit it may ignore?

I said that it doesn't work at this scale. This isn't a tactical level game.



I don't think the real point of previous posters is to introduce a frontage for units but that an attack coming simulteanously from several hexsides should lead to some penalty for the defender which AFAIK is not the case in this game.

I agree with that proposition and this has nothing to do with me conjuring the image of a division forming in line led by Lannes or Murat in a one day battle. I think it's quite intuitive that including within the scale of this game, if you have to defend against several axes of attack you have to spread more your forces, keep more reserves, ...

Besides it could be a rule limiting the impact of 'checker board' defense.

The argument consisting of listing some old wargame is not good because design choices specifically for non-computer wargame are always a balance between playability and plausability. With a computer wargame you can add as much automated rule or calculation as you think appropriate.

And btw I found each and any of your post in this thread rude, agressive and condescending which is quite unusual in this forum.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 48
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 8:54:40 AM   
Magnum88

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		I think just adding a bonus to attacks from several hexes will not have an appreciable effect on the checkerboard defense because currently the only way to attack from several hexes is to do deliberate attacks, which would be a huge waste of MPs against relatively weak opponents. Perhaps a malus for a defender who is adjacent to multiple enemy units would have a greater effect, simulating the need for the unit to keep some forces to guard against multiple potential threats. It would allow hasty attacks to benefit as well as deliberate attacks.

(in reply to saintsup)
Post #: 49
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 1:05:20 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Are you telling me that a division equipped with weapons that are far superior to a musket or a 12lbr is going to line up in a neat line? Tell me, just how could it have a zone of control in the six surrounding hexes if it's facing everything in one direction.

The lines may not be very neat, but yes, divisions do form lines which are designed to meet threats from specific directions.The narrower the frontage, (lower number of hexsides in game terms),the more the division can concentrate it's firepower and hold back reserves.If a division is surrounded these lines have to be thinned out and reserves committed in order to meet the threat from multiple directions.Note you don't have to be attacked, just the threat of an attack is sufficient.This inevitably makes the front lines easier to breach and once breached a surrounded division is in serious trouble because it has nowhere to go.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 2/10/2011 1:14:36 PM >

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 50
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 2:05:04 PM   
Aragorn69

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/10/2011
Status: offline 		Hi everboby,

Coming to the forum but having played 3 full GC as russian against IA
I have several comments to summit.

First GC starting 41 in normal. Not knowing the game and reading the rules while learning the tricks i have found ia challenging until the mud season. Then game over for germany in september 1943 (i go for a while to see tanks army that never appeared). after winter i give IA no FOW, and 115 on setup.

Second GC starting 42 with 110 no FOW for IA. Indeed this is most challenging for russia than the GC41. So Wermacht player's should try this GC, there are in good condition to do interesting things.

Third GC starting 41 with 110 for parameters but logistic (not historic in my point of view) no FOW for IA. This time i ran onto IA strategic blunders ( not tacking into account the weather of next turn, bad flanks)

I think balancing shall wait a little. Why ?

Air War need to be fixed (i hope in next patch)
Some OOB issue will be fixed in next patch
Russian capacity to field more divisions will be divided by two from nov 1941 to dec 1942 in next patch (i fear this one)
Russian capacity to build corps will be divided by two.
And the true strenght of mother russia are those two last points.

After the next patch i think russian players will start to say "that's bad".

One last comment :

Does the first turn of the GC41 and GC42 with optimized mouvement by german without reaction by russian is fair.

As i read forum i said no, this is truly unbalaced and it's linked to the game system.
I accept it.

If i remembered history : russian tanks division (4th i think) had smashed against a panzer Div (4th?) in AGN and there was a crisis. Because T34 et KV crushed the outguns Pz.
I don't found that in GC 41 at this time. How to implement that ?

I suggest that against uber optimized german first turn at least somme russian unit should be put in reserve status to give some variations in defense in turn 1. Otherwhise why should play against a german as a russian in GC41, with everybody testing the best first move with no russian counter.

An alternative should be like in WITP a GC starting a Turn 2.

So waiting 1.03 is the best thing to do. ;o)

Regards












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(in reply to matt.buttsworth)
Post #: 51
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 2:32:52 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Durin69
If i remembered history : russian tanks division (4th i think) had smashed against a panzer Div (4th?) in AGN and there was a crisis. Because T34 et KV crushed the outguns Pz.
I don't found that in GC 41 at this time. How to implement that ?

I suggest that against uber optimized german first turn at least somme russian unit should be put in reserve status to give some variations in defense in turn 1. Otherwhise why should play against a german as a russian in GC41, with everybody testing the best first move with no russian counter


A couple of good points here I think.
I'd like to see the Soviet tank units given just a bit more power so that they have a small but tempting chance of inflicting a retreat result on German units.
Agree that the Soviet player should be able to adjust the positioning of some of his rear units to a limited degree in order to prevent the German first turn becomming formulaic.

(in reply to Aragorn69)
Post #: 52
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 5:09:39 PM   
Aragorn69

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/10/2011
Status: offline
I found something that could give some supplementary material here :

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA428697

It's the link to a thesis about anti tank warfare in eastern front. I know that the first exemple Lithuania, 24 June 1941 is rather tactical, but it gives some indication about difficulties germans troops encoutered.

For one KV2 (luckily there were not in great numbers), it took several AT guns and crew down to finally kill the monster. KV1 & T34 were also a big problem for germans. Why do they bother to field Tiger I ?

balancing at tactical level ? on a week span ? not so easy but i truth in developpers ;o)

regards.


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(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 53
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 6:16:32 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
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From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bloomstombs


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

How about this:
Routed units go to 99 fatigue and can't recover for 1 full turn.
(Or maybe, if you prefer): routed units who are forced to perform a displacement move)

Applies to both sides throughout the game.

Right now, Routing a unit is worse than not attacking it in a great many situations.




Yeah, this is a big problem.

You should never be happy "YES!!! MY UNIT GOT ROUTED! JUST WHAT I NEEDED!"

Which is often the case.





I agree

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Post #: 54
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 10:12:09 PM   
Gonnosuke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Have a look at the QBall - VanBeenie AAR, and the Germans are doing fantastically, against a human opponent who hasn't really made any major mistakes.



I suspect that the game referenced above will actually end up strengthening the OP's point. The last time I checked, Qball had a stellar opening -- as good an opening as I've ever seen -- but the winter had yet to take it's toll. Post blizzard, when Qball's forces are decimated and all forward momentum has been lost, we'll point to that game as a demonstration in futility. No matter how well the Germans start the game, they just can't win...

I don't want to get into the whole Detail vs Realism debate here but this is a game and as such I'd like to go in feeling like I have a chance to secure a meaningful win. Simulation be damned...I want it to be fun. To be fun, I have to have a chance. The outcome can't be inevitable. Maybe some people find the experience of losing as slowly as possible fun but I'm not one of those people.



< Message edited by Gonnosuke -- 2/10/2011 10:13:40 PM >

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 55
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 10:44:52 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		The larger the chance is for Germany to grab cities in '41, the less fun for the Soviet player, getting pushed around with no respite. 

(in reply to Gonnosuke)
Post #: 56
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 11:30:22 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		We will see how Q-Ball does if both players agree to adapt the beta-3 patch that just got posted.

There are two huge battles missing in terms of causing Soviets massive losses: Kiev and the opening of Typhoon. Between them, they knocked out around 1.2 million more troops. Of course, most Russians won't get caught by such things.

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 57
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/10/2011 11:43:28 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gonnosuke
I don't want to get into the whole Detail vs Realism debate here but this is a game and as such I'd like to go in feeling like I have a chance to secure a meaningful win. Simulation be damned...I want it to be fun. To be fun, I have to have a chance. The outcome can't be inevitable. Maybe some people find the experience of losing as slowly as possible fun but I'm not one of those people.

Eloquently said.
+1 from me on that.

Fun games sell more copies, too.

(in reply to Gonnosuke)
Post #: 58
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/11/2011 4:03:21 AM   
Wild


Posts: 364
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline 		I couldn't disagree more. I want realism. Which i believe is fun for most people who buy these types of games. Besides i am in no way convinced that the Germans have no chance.It is just too early to say that.
I agree with JAMiAM on this, and am watching his AAR's with ComradeP and Flaviusx with great interest.


Edit for sp.

< Message edited by Wild -- 2/11/2011 4:10:23 AM >

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 59
RE: Game Balance - Giving Germany a chance - 2/12/2011 4:27:26 AM   
1275psi

 

Posts: 7979
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline 		here is my two cents for what it is worth
I play german -i capture moscow - i rout the russians----i place leningrad under siege , i dig in -the winter comes -i get destroyed


????????????????????????????????????????????

Whats the point of capturing moscow -of doing anything -if UNDER EVERY circumstance -my army is destroyed in the first blizzard.
I am currently experimenting with a game where I dont actually invade the first year -if my army is destroyed by the winter in these circumstance -well, i will go back to WITPAE..............

(in reply to rolypoly)
Post #: 60
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