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GC 41 Kelblau (S) vs 2ndAcr (G) No 2ndAcr

 
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GC 41 Kelblau (S) vs 2ndAcr (G) No 2ndAcr - 2/6/2011 6:42:30 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		FOREWORD
As I start this AAR, our GC is currently at t55, and the panzers are trying to break through our lines in Ukraine. The object of these reports is to share some insights on the soviet perception of the war. Feel free to comment. If, because of real-life contingencies, it may not be as detailed as it should, let it be as thorough as it may. It is dedicated to the makers and testers of this fascinating game. A precision : I consider myself reasonably literate in the history of the Eastern front, but not proficient at all with the subtleties of WITE.
For the German perception, you should read the symetric AAR by 2ndAcr. I consider him a formidable opponent and a fine game partner.
k


THE SUMMER AND AUTUMN CAMPAIGN
For the first period of campaigning, the Red Army receives the following objectives. They are, in that order of priority, to:

1/ prevent the capture of Leningrad
2/ block the advance on Moscow as far west as possible
3/ preserve as much as possible of the manpower centers of Eastern Ukraine
4/ minimize the losses inflicted to the Red Army

To give you a glimpse of what things looked like during this first season of war, we'll start a tour at the end of AUGUST, starting with the northern sector:

I managed to keep the Germans west of Pskov for a long time, with a harsh fighting withdrawal and without suffering major encirclements.
The goal is first to hold the frontline while building a backup fortified line on the Luga river and on the river south-west of Lake Ilmen and starting a ring of fortifications on the hills surrounding Leningrad








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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/13/2011 11:26:49 AM >
Post #: 1
Central sector - 2/6/2011 6:46:56 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		In the central sector, I could keep the panzers at bay for quite some time but here also, I eventually had to give up after a battle East of Minsk.

The general idea is a forward defense with the remnants of Western front falling back as slowly as possible on the Rzhev-Vyazma line manned by reinforcements husbanded in new armies under direct Stavka control.




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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/6/2011 9:39:37 PM >

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Post #: 2
Southern sector - 2/6/2011 6:52:07 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		In Ukraine, I setup armies as best as I could behind the successive rivers, cities and few forests west of Kiev but could not avoid the formation of major pockets, using the marshes in the north to anchor my defences, and alternating linear and checkerboard defences patterns. All those who have played these terrible first 15 turns of the war know that it's easier said than done and that everytime you open your savegame, it is to discover series of disasters, collapsed fronts and encircled armies (when you send it to your opponent, you know very well that the apparent order you have painfully restored will be sent back to you as a pure chaos.


Anyway, the idea was a forward defense (conducted by the Southwestern Front) coupled at the same time by the building of a line along the Dnepr (Bryansk and Kharkov Fronts) with the better part of the reinforcements.

As in history, the progress of AGS was slower than the advance of AGC.






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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/6/2011 9:53:05 PM >

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Post #: 3
Overall situation - 2/6/2011 7:05:31 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		Generally speaking, I could achieve the three strategic objectives of the first season of campaigning:

In the north, Leningrad is well protected and the Luga river is not crossed
In the center, I could stop the panzers between Smolensk and the Vyazma line
In the south, after tremendous pockets on the Dnepr, I could buy time time and stall the advance East of the Dnepr but well West of Karkov: the manpower centers of Ukraine are saved.
Of course, the price to pay for this achievement is that the Red Army is completely exhausted. Pockets have destroyed huge numbers of combat formations, but few HQs. Almost all frontline divisions are unready, depleted. The airforce is preserved (I basically spent the autumn moving it eastward with the occasional paradrop of supply to lengthen by one week the lifespan of surrounded combat formations).



WINTER SEASON

So, the general situation is quite in our favor from a strategic and geographic point of view (more territory and manpower was preserved that I could hope for) but extremely fragile on a military point of view (the armies are hodge podges of remnants, some commands are overloaded, all TOEs are depleted, and the leadership is not very coherent). Loads of APs will be needed over an extended period of time.


Considering this situation, and knowing that our german opponent would avoid a risky confrontation in winter, I gave our forces two major objectives :

1/ Have a combat-capable Red Army and Airforce ready for the spring campaign.
2/ Optimize the frontline.

To fulfill these goals, after careful considerations, I chose NOT to develop a winter offensive (with what aims? I do not need to reconquer vital territories since I have not lost much) and I fear that a winter offensive would deplete the soviet force and that the German would be able to catch us flat footed - strategically repeating operational mistakes such as the Barvenkovo-Lozovaya operation.

I recognize that this choice is an unconventional one, and that, by doing this, I choose a path not yet travelled, open a strategic option that goes against received wisdom and face long-term consequences that are not clear at all. I will add that the occasional probes I made revealed that the enemy seem to have evacuated the combat zone. Apparently he choose to create a no man's land between our armies. So, let it be.


Back to the map:

When mud hits and the German starts to withdraw to his winter positions, the frontline has one major indentation (west of Rzhev) and one major salient (west of Kursk). Here is a general view. In the next posts, I will give more details and regional views.







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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/6/2011 10:28:43 PM >

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Post #: 4
Leningrad sector, spring 1942 - 2/6/2011 7:53:30 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		REORGANIZATION PRINCIPLES

With some adaptations, I reshaped the Red Army according to the following general design:

Each Front commands
4 frontline armies

Each Army is given the responsibility of a 3 hexes wide and 3 hexes deep sector. For this, it receives

9 rifle divisions,
2 tank brigades+ 2 rifle brigades (1 rifle div) that constitute the army operational reserve

South of Bryansk Front, a 3rd armored brigade is added, so that each army may dispose of 1 tank corps.

SUPPORT UNITS
Each army receives a basic dotation of
2 Construction bns
2 Sapper bns
2 AA bns
2 arty bns (1 gun, 1 howitzer)

RESERVES
All rear areas reserves are usually formed into armies (shock armies first) and left under Stavka direct control until the main axis of enemy advance has been clearly identified.

11 cavalry corps are formed (+/- 1 per front), left under Stavka control and directed as needed.

The airborne brigades, to be consolidated as rifle guard divs, are earmarked as the backbone of reserve armies.


The defence of the northern sector relies on the Northwestern front, completed by the Northern Front SE of Pskov and the 23rd Army in Leningrad. It is built with on 3 components:

1/ the front sector
2/ a skeleton of fortications around the city (plus, inside the city, all the NKVD regiments I could gather - I could as well have railed them to other cities in rear areas. Their goal is just to garrison the forts and prevent them from crumbling.
3/ 2 Stavka reserve groups : the airborne corps in Novgorod and several rifle brigades spread behind the mainline.





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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/6/2011 9:14:09 PM >

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Post #: 5
Kalinin front sector, spring 1942 - 2/6/2011 8:08:00 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		In the Volkhov and Kalinin Front sectors, once the armies have been rested and reorganized according to the guidelines presented in the previous post, I moved forward all formations in the general direction of the Smolensk-Velikye Luki-Loknya marshes area. This move allowed a more manageable line.

Each front received one reserve army, left under Stavka control.






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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/6/2011 10:09:26 PM >

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Post #: 6
RE: Kalinin front sector, spring 1942 - 2/6/2011 8:14:37 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		The defense of the central sector is the responsibility of the Western and Bryansk front, each controlling 4 armies. Here as well, once reorganized, the armies moved westward and streamlined their positions. Each front is allocated a reserve army, under Stavka control.




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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/6/2011 8:16:53 PM >

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Post #: 7
Southern sector, spring 1942 - 2/6/2011 8:20:29 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		The defence of the Kursk-Kharkov area is put under the responsibility of the Bryansk (from the Desna river to the Sejm river), Southwestern (from the Sejm river to the Psel river and S-Ural (from the Psel river to the Dnepr river) fronts.

The frontline advanced westward.

In this open-country sector, each army received a 3rd tank brigade, to be transformed in due time into a tank corps.

All along the frontline, each front sector received 1 or 2 cavalry corps, left under stavka control.

Paratroopers garrison some of the key cities (and they are to be transformed in Guard rifle divisions to beef up the reserve (shock armies).






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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/6/2011 10:11:48 PM >

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Post #: 8
Southern sector, spring 1942 - 2/6/2011 8:30:37 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		WINTER SEASON GENERAL DEBRIEFING
The two major goals we gave to the Soviet forces have been correctly fulfilled.

- The Red Army is completely reorganized ; all combat formations have full TOEs and are ready to fight. Our major concern is its relatively low experience level (due to the lack of winter fighting).

- The frontline is now much more manageable than at the end of the autumn, and with carefully placed reserve armies, we have the opportunity first to grind down and (hopefully)to counterattack the enemy afterward.

In the next post, we will jump directly 15 weeks ahead, check the last preparations, and survey the spring offensive.

And to finish this tour, a look at the southern extremity of our frontline at the end of winter.
The enemy could not cross the Dnepr there in the first season of war. So, even if this lengthens a bit our frontline, we will try to deny him this formidable obstacle.

It is the mission of both our Crimean ex Southern) Front and of the Transcaucasus Front).
However, should a major offensive occur here or elsewhere, needing a shortening of the lines,two backup fortified lines are prepared : the Coastal army is due to fall back on the fortified chokepoints that defend Crimea. And the other stop-line is on the Molochnya river, south of Zaporozhe.





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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/6/2011 10:37:45 PM >

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Post #: 9
Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 12:45:52 AM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		Ok, we'll jump directly to the big battle that is going on and that looks like the battle of Kursk - one year before the historical one.

PREPARATIONS
Apparently, the German massed all his armored and motorised formations to develop a two-pronged attack, obviously aimed at pocketing the Bryansk and Southwestern Front Armies.

The map shows our interpretation of the german move (in blue) and our reactions to it (in yellow).

To sum up the things, in the late spring our recon flights detected two armor concentrations, one w of Orel and one w of Belgorod.

As soon as we confirmed than no other spots were so heavily loaded with armored formations, we started developing a defence plan.
It involved :

a) strengthening of all the armies of Bryansk and Southwestern Front (1 tank corps in operational reserve for each army, addition of 2 tank bns and 1 BM howitzer bn as SU in each army HQ). Appointments of our best leaders in the area.


b) Neighbouring fronts (Southern and Kalinin) would be discreetly given a relatively wider frontage (+2 hexes each), which allow a small but interesting increase in troop density in the Kursk sector.

c) The corresponding air armies would each receive and additional air group putting the total at 7 each for Bryansk and Southwestern Front.

c) rail movement over several turns (turns 45 to 50) of 3 Stavka reserve armies that were prepositioned behind the Volkhov Front, Kalinin Front, and Western Front. Their first task is to consolidate the 4th (rear) hex of fortification all along the anticipated offensive sector.

d) Preventive airstrikes. We targeted the armor concentration, the assault infantry corps and the airbases. Costly and not very efficient.

THE ATTACK

The enemy attack developed as anticipated. The heavy fortifications ensured that enemy progresses were slow and localized. After unsuccessful infantry assaults, the panzer attacked and indented our frontline in two spots.

THE REACTION
Our reaction was twofold
1/ in the attacked sector
a) Slow fall back (1 hex per turn) of all the front between the two pincers to prevent the formation of a pocket.

b) insertion of the newly formed Voronezh Front (with 4 reserve armies) to plug the gap without losing operational depth.

2/ in the neighbouring sectors
a) either observation or local counterattacks.
b) reconquest of the area West of Dnepropetrovsk to build a forward straight front (see next message with the screenshot)

CONCLUSION
after 5 turns, the german attack is somewhat stalling and our local and peripheral counterattacks have resulted in 3 german divisions retreating.





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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/7/2011 1:14:31 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 1:06:20 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		All this does, in the end, is convince the German to turtle right back at you. Pretty boring. And chewing through German fort spam is about as futile for you as it is for him. You'll need to wait for artillery divisions if he counterturtles you. And the fighting will probably not break out into the open for quite some time.

We may have to do something about forts.

It's not clear a Soviet is better off in the long run going up against a German turtle.

I would have thinned out the Ukraine and allowed him so advance deep...and set myself up for a riposte in the late autumn.

It's going to take you so much longer to get the Red Army trained up doing this turtle strat, too. You could have close to 90 guards rifle divisions by July, and most of your cav at guards status, if you had used the blizzard to fight rather than turtle up.

Obviously, I'm not a fan of this entire strat. It is too clever by half. It may even result in some game tweaks. It's not fun. It's not historical. You may have indeed found a way to break the game. Turtling sucks.

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Post #: 11
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 1:24:08 AM   
raizer

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/6/2010
Status: offline 		 nothing is really historical when you think about it-except the weather-that is historical down to the exact week I guess

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Post #: 12
RE: Southern sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 1:33:12 AM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		In the Southern sector, we started a forward movement and reconquered the Dnepr Bend, brushing aside the SS kav div. (map)

In the Volkhov Front sector we also attacked and retreated the division protecting the Southern approach to Velikye Luki.

This, in addition to the 2 entrenched german divisions that were attacked and retreated by the Western and Kalinin Fronts (previous map, yellow <).

Careful and limited maneuvers. But proof is now given that the Red Army is able to simultaneously absorb and blunt two full-scale panzer assaults while dislodging entrenched german infantry divisions on other sectors of the front.

The perspectives are very exciting considered from the Soviet point of view. Henceforth, we give to the Red Army the following objectives for this 1942 summer campaign.

1/ Keep all major cities and stop cold any german attempt to pierce the frontline.
2/ Test and develop the offensive capabilities of the Red Army to use them fully in the next year of campaigning.







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(in reply to Kel)
Post #: 13
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 1:34:43 AM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		The weather is random.

(in reply to raizer)
Post #: 14
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 1:39:28 AM   
raizer

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/6/2010
Status: offline 		hehe good for you guys kel
Id like to see if you can break out of your forts and take it to the germans-target the panzers btw make him pull them into forts and turtle. Course we all know the germans dont have the frontage like the soviets and cannot build across the entire front-and you can target those allies as well

< Message edited by raizer -- 2/7/2011 1:42:25 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 1:47:21 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The German can build forts much faster than the Soviet. Especially if he uses regimental breakdowns. Rule of thumb: a german regiment can construct forts about as quickly as a Sovet rifle division. A bit faster even.

If the German goes all in on a turtle, it becomes very difficult to overcome this construction capacity and get into the clear. Busting a two or three forts a turn along the entire front isn't going to do it.



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Post #: 16
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 2:28:37 AM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		I partially agree with you Flaviusx.

Fun : This is a subjective appreciation. As far as I am concerned, I am pretty excited at blocking panzers in the summer of 1942, having almost as much fun as I had surviving the panzer onslaught by a competent German player west of the Luga Line, west of the Vyazma line and west of Kharkov in the autumn of 1941.

Historical :
a)see the defense of Leningrad, that started as soon as the autumn of 1941 or the defense of Kursk, just one year after the current period.

b)an articulated defense in depth with multiple layers of fort seems to me, no more and no less historical than, lets say the famous and so-called 'checkerboard defense'.

c) and while we are speaking about historical behaviour - it seems to me that the encouraged behaviour of a German army falling back from the frontline by more than 40 miles as soon as some mud appears and abandoning all its gains without being fired at just because they have to "avoid-at-any-cost-the-soviet-ZOC-and-winterize-in-cities,-or-in-towns-(no-more-than-1-division-in-that-case) except-for-the-mountain-troops-(romanian-included)-that-are-the-keypoints-of-your-defense-in-the-wilderness", does not seem to be the epitome of historicity. among the most famous divisions that had to be shipped back to Germany for rehabilitation during the winter 1941 was precisely the 3.Gebirgs-division that suffered pretty badly during the autumn operations in front of Murmansk.

I agree with you that the fort mechanism may and should be a bit tweaked. My perception is that there should be no way that any stack, even with the help of many construction bns would be able to build lvl 5 forts in a period of 1 to 3 months, rivalling with the bunkers of Sevastopol that took years to built. FYI, on the whole front line, only 2 lvl 5 forts appeared, although. But I think that they should not have. (Most of my first lines forts are lvl 4 (with a good number of lvl 3) and most of my 2nd and 3rd line forts are lvl 3 (with some lvl 2). And the 3rd and 4th line of defence are about equal numbers of lvl 3,2 and 1.)

Anyway. We are just talking about a game.


< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/7/2011 2:40:50 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 2:45:15 AM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		I applaud your strategy.

It's good that somebody has tried an alternative strategy than to bulldoze the Axis World War One style come blizzard.

Not that you really needed to capture territory, with the minimal gains the Axis had made.

Only way to improve tactics is thru a visual display.

By the way, totally sexy map. I use it myself.

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Post #: 18
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 3:30:57 AM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		Interesting strategy - if both sides just sit back going into 1942 with a fully fortified frontline, with the German player back stopping his forts with reinforcing divisions, broken down into regiments, he should have at least two fully fortified lines behind his MLR at all times. He'll bleed the Red Army dry by 1944 - since replacements become harder and harder to come by as time goes on.

This may definitely need to be looked at.

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RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 4:06:44 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
The way I see it, and yes, I've been parroting this for some days now on the AARs I follow, it is going to turn into WWI Eastern Front by default the way the game is set up. German infantry is so screwed after 41 they cannot make any kind of headway against the dug in Soviets in 42. The Soviets are rewarded for pulling back and digging in on a back line well behind critical population centers and factory locations (which they easily move east) where they simply hunker down and wait for their army to morph into the 43 style juggernaut.

This is not going to make a fun game of it folks. The Soviets need a reason to attack ferociously during the winter and the Germans need a chance to do something offensively in 42.  Otherwise it will just be a slow grind for the rest of the war. This isn't fun for either side.



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Post #: 20
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 4:38:18 AM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		Kudos Kelblau for having the guts to try something different strat wise. I think when you first implemented it, no one really thought it would work. I don't know if it will pay off in the long run from the standpoint if the Russians will score a "win" in this game or not, but part of it is also the German response. I think if they counter-turtle, it would be really rough to pull out a win against a fresh German army that is very well dug in and without very much in the way of Guards units. Crossing "no mans land" could be daunting indeed without the protection of the fortifications. Obviously if the Germans exhaust themselves against this defense (ala Kursk), then the Russians will have a fair shot at winning since they won't have to fear German reserves as much.

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Post #: 21
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 6:52:22 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Kelblau, there's no question that a German runaway going into mud and winter is also a problem and contributed to your own turtle.

I'm hoping the next patch mixes things up and introduces more fluidity to the game and allows Germans to press harder and deeper into the Soviet Union. And to hold as much of that ground as possible. That will more or less force the Sov to counterattack during the winter to gain some breathing space. You'll be a lot less willing to turtle up if the Germans are as far east as they got in real life.

The lines will move during the winter and this helps avoid this trench warfare in the east stuff, which is going to be a real game killer for many folks. It would be for me, anyways, and I'm a diehard Sov player. I would actually deliberately leave sections of the front weaker than others just to get more mobile warfare going -- and give me some chances to catch an overextended German. Blasting through fortlines is tedious.

I actually think the German stands reasonable chance of getting a draw or a minor victory in this sort of turtling situation, btw. But blech. Booooring. For both sides.

Plainly the gutting of German infantry during the blizzard and the present lack of recovery of their morale and experience isn't helping.

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RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 12:40:47 PM   
Magnum88

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		Perhaps changing the blizzard mechanics to lower Axis losses if the Soviets do not press them. Units not moving would suffer low attrition/morale losses, those next enemy units more, those that move even more, attacked but successfully held more still, and forced to retreat the worst. That way if the Soviet player decided to not do a winter counteroffensive the Axis would suffer little from the first winter rule.

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Post #: 23
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 4:00:57 PM   
tuffgong

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 10/3/2001
From: here
Status: offline 		Flaviusx's suggestion of looking at fortification seems like a good one, from what I can tell from the AAR's. I don't know much about the game mechanics so the following should be taken with that in mind, some of it may be in the game now:

Fortification levels supposedly represent the range of things from simple foxholes through linked trench systems allowing troops to move about under cover, log and earthen dugouts and bunkers, cleared fields of fire with minefields and wire obstacles and anti-tank barriers all the way to concrete pillboxes and fortifications. Terrain should be one factor affecting just how much and how quickly a hex can be fortified. Parts of the steppes were open treeless plains in which building log bunkers and dugouts would be pretty tough for example, and there should probably be limits to just how much you can fortify in a swamp where digging in tends to result in holes filling with mud and water. It was especially hard to dig at all in the harsh winters. German generals reported that their over-extended troops couldn't even dig foxholes in the hard-frozen ground. It should be very hard to fortify in blizzard conditions, taking considerable extra resources per hex to achieve higher fort levels. Historically weather and terrain, both separately and in combination, would have affected the ability of troops to fortify an area.

There would also be limits on just how much help an engineer or construction battallion could give at the corps or army level of attachment. With 10 mile hexes, each hex represents roughly 100 square miles! In this AAR, Soviet armies are occupying 3 x 3 hex areas, about 900 square miles. There is just a limit to how much of that a battallion of folks can help with in a one-week turn. (Again, I don't know a lot about the game mechanics and there may be limits already in place, such as attached batallions only helping fortify one hex.)

In '43, the Soviets spent months devoting their resources to fortifying the Kursk salient since they knew the German attack plans. In this AAR, they appear to have fortified the entire front line to Kursk-like levels or more, in early 1942. Having the German and Soviet armies facing each other in Manginot lines, in depth, the length of the east front after a couple months doesn't seem a reasonable possibility given the resources available.

(in reply to Magnum88)
Post #: 24
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 4:42:42 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		The problem is there is not enough extra incentives built into the game that promote more agressive activity.

I have been ripped for this before and it may not be possible given the game engine but a system that generates some sort of points that can be spent as a player meets certain objectives would go along way for long term replayability and add a level of excitement to the game.

Dont get me wrong I enjoy the game. As it stands however it could be so much more.

As the Axis give me a solid reason to push my guys to the limit in the winter of 1941. Maybe if I meet certain conditions I get 500 political points to institute a "stand fast" order. That in turn helps me defend against the onslaught.

As the Soviet if I manage to cling onto the Don Basin in 1941 I get extra points to build units... or transfer an extra 10 divsisions from Siberia.

The level of unpredictability would grow immensely. It would also punish certain behaviors that in real life would not be tolerated politically.

Its a great game but like all games it runs the risk of the players figuring out the best path to victory and everything becoming predictable or leading to games that become boring.

Just my quick 2 cents.


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Post #: 25
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 8:03:10 PM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		First a little quip at my friend Ketza - check his great new AAR for background info, in addition it's really one of the most beautiful AARs I see presently.

Worrying about sustainability already? Great .

Now, back to the main topic - how to provide a reason for aggressive action on the map.

I really do not have any hard data on it as of yet - and I think probably only testers have looked at it in detail, but could not at least in principle the production system provide such a reason (or maybe it does already, but we did not recognize it so far ?)

I mean, if the owner of a hex really profits from oil, resources, HI etc and/or if those hexes changing hands frequently negates such use, said owner will fight for it. Conversely, if losing hexes really hurts, players won't give space away for free.

Can any of the testers or someone who has played sufficiently far in a campaign with an eye on production make a statement relating to the question whether captured oil resources etc make a difference? Or may be modified (at the risk of leaving the historical framework) in such a way that they do?

Thanks

Hartwig


< Message edited by hartwig.modrow -- 2/7/2011 8:06:14 PM >

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 26
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/7/2011 9:28:36 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		Thank you for the comments and encouraging posts.
For the time being, with 2ndAcr, we agreed on proceeding with the game, at least until the patch.
An update of the Soviet view of the current battle should be posted in a few days, let's say around turn 60. In the meantime, we'll both try to do our worst.

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 27
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/8/2011 4:34:08 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow

First a little quip at my friend Ketza - check his great new AAR for background info, in addition it's really one of the most beautiful AARs I see presently.

Worrying about sustainability already? Great .

Now, back to the main topic - how to provide a reason for aggressive action on the map.

I really do not have any hard data on it as of yet - and I think probably only testers have looked at it in detail, but could not at least in principle the production system provide such a reason (or maybe it does already, but we did not recognize it so far ?)

I mean, if the owner of a hex really profits from oil, resources, HI etc and/or if those hexes changing hands frequently negates such use, said owner will fight for it. Conversely, if losing hexes really hurts, players won't give space away for free.

Can any of the testers or someone who has played sufficiently far in a campaign with an eye on production make a statement relating to the question whether captured oil resources etc make a difference? Or may be modified (at the risk of leaving the historical framework) in such a way that they do?

Thanks

Hartwig



The sustainability comment came from the fact that there isnt a lot of strategic unpredictability built into the game. Eventually we will all be somewhat evenly matched as opponents and I fear the "Ho Hum" factor may set in.

One of the best things about witp and witpae was that both sides had tremendous strategic decisions to make on a consistent basis. It is a very unpredictable game.

Speaking of which I will send you back a AE turn soon hartwig.

Oh and about the production thing. My 2 cents is its a rather passive game mechanic. You kinda know that it helps to capture a Soviet city or capture a resource but it really doesnt jump out at you. If the mechanic was more player interactive it would help.

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 28
RE: Southwest sector july 1942 - 2/9/2011 9:23:56 PM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		TURN 60 SUMMARY (August 1942)

1/ In the Kursk-Kharkov sector, the german offensive has been stopped. The panzers are stationed in front of the soviet first lines and have obviously learnt the lessons.

2/ All along the front, especially in sectors where we suppose no axis reinforcements could be brought quickly to retaliate) we conduct attacks with no decisive results (a retreat here a hold result there). However, these fights are slowly raising the experience levels of the involved divisions, and prevent the German army to entrench too strongly in zones that are critical for future operations.


SOUTHERN SECTOR OFFENSIVE
In the Azov Sea southern sector (map) we are conducting a 2 fronts attack centered on Krivoi-Rog (Transcaucasus Front) and Nikolaïev (Crimea Front).
The army HQs have been reinforced with 2 tank bns each, 1 flamethrower tank bn, 2 sapper rgts, and 1 BM howitzer bn. One shock army has been added to Konev' Crimean Front.

Transcaucasus front has been given the additional task to garrison a fall-back line on the Dnieper should the offensive be repulsed.

Local successes were achieved (Krivoi Rog has been taken, lost, and retaken) and the first tangible effect of this move was that its magnitude was consequent enough to provoke the shift of a full panzerkorps and one infantry korps to Krivoi-Rog, thus alleviating the pressure on the central sector of the frontline.

We will observe how this operation develops and, if we can achieve satisfying results, we may choose to develop a symetric diversionary attack in the north, specifically to recapture Velikye Luki in early september. Provisions are made to that end.









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(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 29
beta patch - 2/13/2011 11:23:44 AM   
Kel


Posts: 229
Joined: 12/17/2010
Status: offline 		LAST WORD

With the arrival of beta patch, I agreed to 2ndAcr proposal to start a new campaign game (he was specially upset by the xp loss when his divs upgraded to the 1942 toe).


My last move (turn 63, end of august 1942) resulted in retreating two stacks of panzers (one in front of Orel, the other one at Krivoï Rog), one of motorized infantry (including the infamous Totenkopf) and pushing a dozen infantry divisions all along the front.

And I am quite curious of what effect the first rifle corps and gun brigades would have had on the current battle. They are almost ready for action.

Anyway, it was a very interesting campaign game. The possibilities offered to the soviet commander are fascinating. We barely scratched the surface of what could be done with such a magnificent machine of war.





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< Message edited by Kelblau -- 2/13/2011 12:59:09 PM >

(in reply to Kel)
Post #: 30
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