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Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/16/2011 6:37:21 PM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		I'm wondering, as my forces sit next to Kharkov, Stalino and Moscow, what historical reason there is to prevent Russia evacuating adjacent factories by rail. Perhaps this is my inability to visualise a situation, but I can't see how units maybe 5-10 miles from a factory and its rail yards, can prevent it's evacuation. Artillery might make it more difficult, so wouldn't an AP charge or increased hit on railcap be more realistic?
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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/16/2011 8:42:48 PM   
alfonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

I'm wondering, as my forces sit next to Kharkov, Stalino and Moscow, what historical reason there is to prevent Russia evacuating adjacent factories by rail. Perhaps this is my inability to visualise a situation, but I can't see how units maybe 5-10 miles from a factory and its rail yards, can prevent it's evacuation. Artillery might make it more difficult, so wouldn't an AP charge or increased hit on railcap be more realistic?


The unit besides the city has a ZOC which includes that city. "Zones of Control (ZOC) represent the ability of ground combat units to exert control over the map area in their vicinity and the area that they move through" (manual). So you can think that the unit is not wholly localized in one single hex, but is somewhat "delocalized" in the hexes surrounding it.

(in reply to Mehring)
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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/16/2011 8:52:56 PM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		Yes, but what does a zone of control really represent?

If a city hex is unoccupied, it is taken by an enemy unit's zone of control. This, I imagine, represents patrols taking control of terrain beyond the MLR of their parent unit.

When the city is occupied and defended, it is not captured bu such patrols. A front line exists in the latter case, in some shape or form. The more defending units present, the less permeable it is. Bottom line, patrols are not going to penetrate a front line to interdict rail movement several miles behind it.

What will affect behind the lines rail activity, is artillery, but its effectiveness is dependent upon range, adequate ammo supply, a good LOS or target spotting. I can't see how this is sufficient to stop all rail movement in hexes of the size depicted in WitE.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 2/16/2011 8:56:16 PM >

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/16/2011 9:12:45 PM   
Fetrik


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Status: offline 		Considering the time involved to move a factory i would say they get more than a few ranging shots

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/16/2011 10:06:19 PM   
alfonso

 

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Status: offline 		I would say that if a unit is in the ZOC of other unit, they fight each other, at least some skirmishes. In the confussion of the battle, rail drivers are shot down by snipers. That is how I imagine that the ZOC stops rail movement in that hex. Besides, in a city fight, front lines are much more permeable than usual. Easier for the snipers.

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/16/2011 11:11:02 PM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		Deary me, get real.

In Stalingrad the two sides famously measured progress in buildings and streets. We are talking about factories up to 10 miles behind the front lines. How many skirmishes took place even 1 mile behind the front lines in Stalingrad?

Can artillery spotters even see factories and railyards, let alone snipers see the poor train drivers through the intervening trees, terrain undulations and other buildings etc, etc, etc, etc?

Are these strategic objectives even on their tactically orientated radar?

Talk about stretching credulity.

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/16/2011 11:31:40 PM   
sillyflower


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Status: offline 		In real life the battlefield will be fluid (especially at the stage of the war we are talking about here) and it doesn't take much to disrupt rail traffic. If you live in England you will know this

If a hex is 10 miles, then the distance between edge of 1 hex is only 5 miles from middle of hex that has the factories and rail lines in. Given that train stions are always built on low ground for obvious reasons they and/or the factories would be likely to be under direct observation from ground troops at least part of the time let alone spotter aircraft I do therefore believe the rule is a sensible depiction of real life.

If you are not convinced don't forget that any available trains would no doubt be filled with the nomenclatura anyway.



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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 12:02:28 AM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		Warfare is considerably less fluid in a urban environment than elsewhere, at any stage of the war, because of the abundance of protective terrain it provides.
If a hex is 10 miles, the then the distance between the edge of one hex and the rail line/factory is anything between less than a milimetre and 10 miles.
given that stations are often built on low ground, they are more likely to be concealed by surrounding buildings and terrain undulations. Direct obsevation cannot then be counted on.
Do you think that in the fluid battle situations you describe, or even more fixed ones, observers would necessarily be told to target strategic industries?

Nothing I've read here yet, convinces me that rail evacuation from a hex adjacent to an enemy should have more than a rail capacity or AP penalty, either of which would amply represent the possibility of interdiction.

(in reply to sillyflower)
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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 7:20:53 AM   
alfonso

 

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Status: offline 		To be in a ZOC also impedes many other functions, not only factory evacuation. Entrenchment, rail movement of any type, fatigue recovery...So, you can also complain about all them. You would allow not only factory evacuation, but train reinforcements....

EDIT: additionaly, if any portion of the rail out of the city is in ZOC (even at 100 miles from the city), factory evacuation is impossible (or it should be) because that rail hex is not connected to the rail network, so the "problem" is greater than you imagine.

If you think that frontlines are exclusively present in the frontier between hexes, you are therefore thinking that the front line only can be moved in quantum leaps of 10 miles? Is that not a stretching of your credulity? The front line can only be at 10, 20, 30 ...miles from the city (or 5, 15, 25 if you count from the center) ? What about a little flexibility in the understanding of a modelled situation? And for me, this is what a ZOC is: a semi-battle.


< Message edited by alfonso -- 2/17/2011 8:12:21 AM >

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 8:09:02 AM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		No alfonso, ZOC do not prevent entrenchment or fatigue recovery, do they? You build your argument upon a false premise, that ZOC impede rail movement as they do other functions. They don't, and if you read my posts, you will see that I am arguing that they should.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 2/17/2011 8:14:24 AM >

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 8:13:27 AM   
alfonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

No alfonso, you build your argument upon a false premise, that ZOC impede rail movement as they do other functions. They don't and if you read my post, you will see that I am arguing that they should.


Manual: "Note that rail hexes that are adjacent to enemy units are considered not connected to the rail network." page 256, bottom

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 8:14:54 AM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		Yes, I can read the manual.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 2/17/2011 8:15:19 AM >

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 8:20:30 AM   
alfonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

No alfonso, ZOC do not prevent entrenchment or fatigue recovery, do they? You build your argument upon a false premise, that ZOC impede rail movement as they do other functions. They don't, and if you read my posts, you will see that I am arguing that they should.


Fatigue. Manual: "This attrition is in addition to the additional fatigue effects from being adjacent to enemy units"

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 8:24:52 AM   
alfonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

No alfonso, ZOC do not prevent entrenchment or fatigue recovery, do they? You build your argument upon a false premise, that ZOC impede rail movement as they do other functions. They don't, and if you read my posts, you will see that I am arguing that they should.


Entrenchment: manual: "Any ground elements in the unit that are not engineer or construction types have their construction value divided by five when adjacent to an enemy unit"

EDIT: I am wrong here, because I thought that he was saying that ZOCs do not have effect in entrenchment ability, but he is saying that ZOCs do not prevent (completely) entrechment from ocurring.

< Message edited by alfonso -- 2/17/2011 9:58:31 AM >

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 8:31:28 AM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		I've never found it fruitful to discuss an issue with someone who does not read or cannot understand what I say.

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 8:33:39 AM   
alfonso

 

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From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline 		But, as Witgenstein once said, all arguments are really above all a question of semantics. If you think that factory evacuation should not be completely prevented, but severely impeded, I cannot disagree. Multiply x5 its rail cost? OK.

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 8:42:03 AM   
alfonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

I've never found it fruitful to discuss an issue with someone who does not read or cannot understand what I say.


Yes, in this case you are right. I got confused by the words, because in Spanish impedir=prevenir, and in English this is not so. My apologies.

< Message edited by alfonso -- 2/17/2011 8:45:28 AM >

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 9:02:28 AM   
alfonso

 

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Joined: 10/22/2001
From: Palma de Mallorca
Status: offline 		Although in reality, multiplying x5 the rail cost for each rail hex in ZOC, probably is not going to be much different than completely preventing the movement.


< Message edited by alfonso -- 2/17/2011 9:04:52 AM >

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 9:14:48 AM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		Pero es una discusion de calidad y cantidad, compadre. 100% tiene una calidad distinta de 99% y los de mas. ;-) .

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/17/2011 9:25:33 AM   
alfonso

 

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From: Palma de Mallorca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

Pero es una discusion de calidad y cantidad, compadre. 100% tiene una calidad distinta de 99% y los de mas. ;-) .


Ja ja, lo sé, lo sé.

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RE: Rail and factory Evacuation - 2/18/2011 11:53:14 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

I'm wondering, as my forces sit next to Kharkov, Stalino and Moscow, what historical reason there is to prevent Russia evacuating adjacent factories by rail. Perhaps this is my inability to visualise a situation, but I can't see how units maybe 5-10 miles from a factory and its rail yards, can prevent it's evacuation. Artillery might make it more difficult, so wouldn't an AP charge or increased hit on railcap be more realistic?


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