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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/26/2011 6:33:25 PM

Cribtop

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Go git him, Dan. And don't have the numerous transport TFs run far unless they're carrying troops. They will serve to divide his strikes up piecemeal and increase the odds you get a better than 1:1 exchange.

PS - I am really flabbergasted by this move by your opponent.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 9/26/2011 6:34:25 PM >

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/26/2011 6:49:18 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Another oddity about this situation:� The Japanese carriers didn't launch any strikes, though Allied shipping was within range, nor do any of my TFs show detection levels.� (I didn't pay attention to the weather, but at these ranges it would be likely that something would fly at some point during the turn.)� It's almost as if these carriers were steaming "dark" into unknown waters.� Very odd indeed.

That fits with my suspicion - a CAP trap. But it's worth the air frames and pilots to smash the carriers.

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Post #: 1652

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/26/2011 7:28:55 PM

Cribtop

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CAP trap is possible, but even with all Zeros on those flat tops how much can he put up? He may have been steaming with the 1942 equivalent of sailing without radiating in the hopes of avoiding detection.

Dan, what about turning that picket ship East to see if anyone is following up the 2 CVs you've spotted?

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Post #: 1653

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/26/2011 7:43:59 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

CAP trap is possible, but even with all Zeros on those flat tops how much can he put up? He may have been steaming with the 1942 equivalent of sailing without radiating in the hopes of avoiding detection.

Dan, what about turning that picket ship East to see if anyone is following up the 2 CVs you've spotted?

I was thinking supplemented by LRCAP from land. Even still I say - kill those carriers!

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Post #: 1654

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/26/2011 9:27:32 PM

Canoerebel

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The orders have been issued. I actually tweaked the carrier TF routes to end up two hexes due east (that's game map, or due north in real life) from the hex shown on the map several posts above. I spent alot of time with orders for the turn. Just some of the things done: (a) the patrol aircraft for one cruiser were set to night search (I think moonlight will be about 50%); (b) moved a PBY squadron from Oosthaven to Christmas Island; increased range for the Oosthaven bombers and fighters to six; (c) set all but one 4EB squadron at Oost to naval search at normal range; (d) all carriers set to follow an ASW TF with "do not react" orders; and (e) I steered the vast majority of the civilian ships in the area away to avoid "flooding the zone" (I don't want to use small-fry bait to draw massed attacks).

So...I wonder which way Steve steered his carriers? The turn is sent, so perhaps we'll find out tonight....though that's not a defnite as Steve is wrapped up with a huge project at work that is keeping him tied up about 16 hours a day.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/27/2011 3:37:22 AM

princep01

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Sneaky LYB. Traveling with no more than same hex ASW and maybe seaplanes performing searches. But, he got spotted, so I think he'll run away. My thought is that the TF was trying to slip by undetected and do mischief in your supply route to the Palembang security zone. But, I don't think he'll hang around now. I hope I'm wrong and you get a shot at zapping those clowns. Good luck.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/27/2011 7:00:56 AM

JeffroK

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Too late(for my comment), I was wondering if your Cocos Is airforce might be able to launch a strike and see what CAP is there, 200 Zekes and its a trap.

I also though it might be a "Battle of the Pips" gone south, its either a cunning plan or Baldrik is running the IJN.

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Post #: 1657

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/27/2011 8:46:01 AM

obvert

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Can't wait to see how this plays out. Again, you must be in a quandry between making the best play and hoping to continue this game. If you get to those with your five CVs, you're sending them both down without a loss, I think. (You have a ton of good CAP at this point and you'll have the detection advantage as well, plus the UK CVs are tough as nails).

Did you have any reaction set on your CVs?

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Post #: 1658

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/27/2011 10:56:31 AM

paullus99

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In the scope of the current game, there could be a number of reasons for sending out a KB Carrier Division in that location (though IMHO none of them are worth the risk):

1) Could be attempting to assertain the status of shipping between Indian/Australia & Sumatra - and pick off a few convoys
2) Invasion support (Christmas Is. or Cocos)
3) CAP trap (but I would believe this would only be used if Chaz wasn't expecting carriers, only LBA)
4) Pure shipping raid (again, not worth the risk if Allied carriers may be in the area)

At this point, Chaz should be expecting, with any operations in the DEI, that CR will be present in force - with probably the entire Allied contingent of carriers. Just like Allied players need to assertain the whereabouts of the KB before embarking on major operations early in the game, the reverse is true here as well. CR has shown that he will concentrate his forces and has been able to spring more than a few ambushes against piece-meal Japanese operations - and if Chaz isn't taking that into account (and this current foray seems to confirm that thinking) then this may just turn into another of a long string of Japanese disasters.

He is gambling with the one asset in Scenario #2 that he doesn't have a "bottomless" supply of at the moment - his surface and carrier forces. Of course, early losses obviously left a hole in his OOB to provide carrier support in multiple locations (in force) with the loss of the original Mini-KB, but that should not have prevented him in moving with authority along serious objective lines to secure the resources and positions he would need to react to the anticipated allied counter-moves (starting in 1943). His continued moves (at a glacial pace) in the DEI show the danger of allowed the Allied player the opportunity to regain a measure of balance and resource allocation that can make places like Sumatra, Jave & Timor allied fortresses & extremely costly for the Japanese to reduce (both in time & resources).

And don't even get me started on China - CR has done a masterful job of concentrating exactly when his opponent fragmented, allowing for the mauling of more than a few key Japanese divisions - while Chaz should still have plenty of troops in China, they certainly won't be going on the offensive anytime soon & most certainly won't be pulled out to support operations elsewhere - a true quagmire if you ever saw one.

CR has dislocated Chaz's entire position, in Burma (where the allies will be dug in on a much more advantageous line than they should be), in the Pacific, where CR already has forward positions in NORPAC, CENPAC & a quagmire in SOPAC that Chaz continues to reinforce in dribs & drabs without the ability to finish the fight (and to be honest, with positions as they are his supply lines are too long and vulnerable even in the best of times), and of course with Fortress Sumatra still in his backyard.

Now, can he still make a game of it? I believe he can - but it will be difficult and require a degree of focus and resource re-allocation that he seems to have been unable to achieve up to this point.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/27/2011 1:54:37 PM

Canoerebel

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Thanks for all the comments, gents.

No turn from Chez last night due to working late. As always, he was good to send an email. So I'll have to wait until tonight.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/27/2011 7:54:45 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Just for the record. I don't think Chez has set out to lose. Its simply a function of the play, not a function of a deeper process.

I don't think so either. He is just getting "schooled" in the old way. I am sure he is learning a lot and will do better the next time as a result.

Your Palembang gambit, if not sniffed out early, can be very daunting-especially for a newish player.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/28/2011 4:54:04 PM

Canoerebel

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7/21/42

Battle of Cocos Island: The Japanese carrier TF closes to within three hexes of the Allied carrier TFs, which took post just NW (true) of Cocos Island. The resulting carrier clash is a one-sided Allied victory. Morning strikes by massed waves of Allied torpedo aircraft and divebombers cripple or sink CV Hiryu (three bombs, one torpedo), cripple CV Akagi (two bombs, two torps), and set CA Aoba and several destroyers afire. A sizeable Japanese counterattack of 22 Zeros, 37 Kates and 56 Vals gets mauled by a stout, but not overwhelming CAP. Essentially all IJ strike aircraft are downed with none of the survivors scoring any hits against targets Hornet and Formidable. Afternoon strikes find no sign of Hiryu and little to no CAP, finishing off Akagi (confirmed sunk), Aoba (she took a second 1,000-pounder, but a magazine explosion finished her), and probably three DDs. One IJN CL was left burning.

Air Losses: On the day, the Allies lost 37 aircraft (10 a-2-a) while Japan lost 159 (132 in a-2-a).

Tactical Impact: The American carrier TFs have 75% to 85% mission sorties remaing, so they can remain on station to handle anything that might develop. When Ent and York return from Colombo in ten days, I will dispatch two or perhaps all three of Hornet, Lex and Sara to retire to Colombo to replenish torps, upgrade, and repair accumulated, though light, damage.

Operational Impact: A Japanese TF is south of Java, hugging the coast, in a position where I can only guess she might have been headed for Christmas Island (IO). The carriers must have been acting as a shield, but how many players would send a two-carrier TF to within two hexes a size three enemy airfield (at Cocos Island)? The battle should cause Steve to cancel any invasion plans, but the Allied carriers will move a bit to the east just in case they are needed.

Strategic Impact: Until today, I was concerned that Steve could still pull everything together in one big effort to handle Sumatra. Combing the full might of the KB, combat ships, air force, and amphibious landings might have resulted in a Japanese victory at sea and in the air, followed by a successful campaign on the ground in Sumatra. Such a results, while by no means assured, would have been devastating to the Allies - especially the loss of some 4,500 AV and any capital ships lost in the equation. I no longer think this is possible. The full KB no longer exists, so it will be very hard for Japan to close on eastern Sumatra by sea. Any attempt to do so will meet with a comparatively strong Allied carrier and combat ship response. In the event Steve does pull all remaining carriers into theater to try such a gambit belatedly, it should be too late. It will be weeks or more before he could do so, and stripping the Pacific of his assets at this point will allow the Allies to move forward pretty readly there. Also, this will make it much more difficult for Steve to mop up critical areas still in Allied hands - mainly Port Moresby, Darwin, and Port Blair. The Allies will begin to consider more offensive operations now, including occupation and building of the two islands off Sumatra's northeast tip. There may still be a long war to wage - Japan can fight for a long time on the defensive - but I think the war ended today for all intents and purposes.

What was Steve Thinking? I don't know. I haven't asked him, and his only email comment was: "Note to self. Leave CVs in port. They are useless." I can only guess that he thought the Allied carriers had been moved to the Pacific. Or perhaps a Glen caught wind of Ent and York at Colombo, and he thought they were there (with their squadrons stripped and in Sumatra as he and I discussed via email a few weeks ago). But sending two carriers into hostile waters close to a level three airfield when you aren't dead certain you know where enemy carriers are? Yikes.

SoPac: Marine shore guns at Pago Pago damaged at least five IJN DDs in a fast transport convoy. Later in the day, SBDs from that base sank one of those destroyers after it stopped at Savaii Island.

CenPac: An IJN TF reported to include two CLs sighted well to the eat of Tarawa. This is behind my front lines, though currently I don't have any shipping in the area.

NoPac: Wasp is on the move from Kodiak to the Bering Sea.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/28/2011 4:58:15 PM >

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/28/2011 7:16:13 PM

Canoerebel

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One of the immediate effects of the carrier battle victory is that the Allies will begin the transition from defensive to offensive operations in the DEI. The Allies will expedite the transfer of units from India to the DEI (the threat to India, which wasn't great, is now inftintesimal). The Allies are loading unrestricted infantry, AA, and some base forces at Bombay and Cochin to move to several DEI bases that are under Allied control but ungarrisoned: Billiton Island, Muntok, Singkep, Pontianak and Ketapang are obvious targets. It will take two weeks to get these troops there, but their arrival will clearly signal to Steve that we've enetered a new and unpalatable phase of the game. I expect him to react violently, but I expect the Allies to be able to take advtange of that violence, especially in other theaters.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/28/2011 7:52:58 PM

Cribtop

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We bow before your victory, Dan. Well played all game long. Really hard to fathom Steve's move here.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/28/2011 8:22:45 PM

Miller

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Game and Over.

I expect your opponent to concede soon, which will be a shame considering the effort you have put into this "Fortress Sumatra" defence. Very well played anyway.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/28/2011 8:26:08 PM

SoliInvictus202

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another "odd" move added to your opponent's long list already.. - but well played - you totally through him off balance from the beginning onwards!

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/28/2011 8:45:08 PM

SqzMyLemon

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Next...

Some JFB needs to step up and bring this CR fellow down.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/28/2011 11:08:24 PM

paullus99

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Wow - I can't believe he made the same mistake (not just twice, now three times).

The KB is a very powerful tool - when it is applied as an overwhelming force. In the face of concentrated allied carriers, it is foolish to penny-packet out a carrier division & expect anything other than annihilation. At this point, he's got four regular carriers - plus the two converted liner carriers (Hiyo & Junyo, correct?) against at least four US carriers, plus the British ones (not including Wasp) - which is too close to parity, if not outright disadvantageous odds.

Moving to the offensive makes a lot of sense at the moment.

< Message edited by paullus99 -- 9/28/2011 11:42:33 PM >

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/28/2011 11:40:33 PM

Cribtop

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CR is indeed a threat to JFBs and must be dealt with accordingly.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/28/2011 11:42:57 PM

Nemo121

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Why not? People who don't self-reflect in games or life tend to make the same mistakes time after time. We recognise tees as patterns and/or neuroses ( when they are clearly maladaptive). Chez's a nice guy by all accounts but he hasn't adapted to the shifting situation and repeats the same patterns.

This outcome was inevitable - at some point.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/28/2011 11:44:46 PM

Nemo121

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What's this JFB stuff?

Surely there's just good and bad play? A good player could take any side with facility. I think CR will provide a solid challenge to most irrespective of the side he plays. Good strategy is universal.

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Well, that's that settled then.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/29/2011 12:07:48 AM

Cribtop

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Precisely, Nemo. I was just poking fun at CR.

That's one reason our upcoming match appeals to me. It's high time I played Allies as good play shouldn't be limited to one side or the other.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/29/2011 12:15:19 AM

desicat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Why not? People who don't self-reflect in games or life tend to make the same mistakes time after time. We recognise tees as patterns and/or neuroses ( when they are clearly maladaptive). Chez's a nice guy by all accounts but he hasn't adapted to the shifting situation and repeats the same patterns.

This outcome was inevitable - at some point.

I think Chez is coming at the game completely differently than CR is. Chez appears to be playing the game more as a simulation or recreation of historical events while CR is playing the game for its own sake - and hence capitalizing on Allied capabilities and strategies that would have been politically impossible at the time. The combining of the British and Allied carriers or BB's is great in a game but isn't really something that one would see in a WWII Pacific reenactment for the 1942 time frame. IRL the Japanese did not hesitate to break up the KB, for the game players on the forum it is a sign of poor play - for a simulator is it part of the reenactment. Using commercial vessels that should be fleeing destruction is something a 'simulator' can't grasp while a 'gamer' sees it as a way to save combat vessels.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/29/2011 12:22:01 AM

SqzMyLemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

What's this JFB stuff? Surely there's just good and bad play? A good player could take any side with facility. I think CR will provide a solid challenge to most irrespective of the side he plays. Good strategy is universal.

Absolutely Nemo! JFB's recognize good play and it is indeed universal regardless of the side. It's just happening a wee bit too much on the Allied side of late. Japan needs a morale boost.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/29/2011 12:26:58 AM

GreyJoy

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Sorry for Chez...great move CR!!!!
However i'm sorry to say that i remain on my previous position....Chez really seems to be looking for a total annihilation in order to lose this game quickly

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/29/2011 12:31:57 AM

princep01

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Silly me....I was sure Chez would hightail it out of the area. This was based on the view that he had to know that at least a majority of the Br/US CVs were operating in support of Sumatra/Burma. But, noooo, he came on to his lasting grief. A little amazing, but as sevral noted, it has become a pattern of play.

As to desicat's comments, I agree that the Br and US CVs would not likely operate together in 1942, although, it was more a function of where they were deployed rather than operational disfunction. I think it rntirely feasible that they could have ioperated in conjunction with one another had they been deployed in the same general area and sought a common operational goal.

Regarding the IJN having no particular qualms about breaking KB up, I have to disagree. Other than Coral Sea, I don't remember them operating separately in any major or even a minor operation following the PH strike. (I think they operated as a unit in the Darwin and Indian Ocean strikes (although Kaga may have been in for an ovehaul in the Darwin raid...cannot remember). I am sure the IJN preferred to operate the KB as a whole taking into account that one ship or another might have to undergo routine maintenance from time to time. I know there was a comment in a book I read about the Ceylon raid that the KB had not "rested" since PH except for a short visit to the yards by Kaga.

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/29/2011 12:54:19 AM

desicat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

Silly me....I was sure Chez would hightail it out of the area. This was based on the view that he had to know that at least a majority of the Br/US CVs were operating in support of Sumatra/Burma. But, noooo, he came on to his lasting grief. A little amazing, but as sevral noted, it has become a pattern of play.

As to desicat's comments, I agree that the Br and US CVs would not likely operate together in 1942, although, it was more a function of where they were deployed rather than operational disfunction. I think it rntirely feasible that they could have ioperated in conjunction with one another had they been deployed in the same general area and sought a common operational goal.

Regarding the IJN having no particular qualms about breaking KB up, I have to disagree. Other than Coral Sea, I don't remember them operating separately in any major or even a minor operation following the PH strike. (I think they operated as a unit in the Darwin and Indian Ocean strikes (although Kaga may have been in for an ovehaul in the Darwin raid...cannot remember). I am sure the IJN preferred to operate the KB as a whole taking into account that one ship or another might have to undergo routine maintenance from time to time. I know there was a comment in a book I read about the Ceylon raid that the KB had not "rested" since PH except for a short visit to the yards by Kaga.

Midway. The Japanese split their CV's by sending some to the Aleutians on a feint, they would have helped.

< Message edited by desicat -- 9/29/2011 1:19:55 AM >

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/29/2011 12:59:42 AM

vettim89

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quote:

ORIGINAL: desicat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Why not? People who don't self-reflect in games or life tend to make the same mistakes time after time. We recognise tees as patterns and/or neuroses ( when they are clearly maladaptive). Chez's a nice guy by all accounts but he hasn't adapted to the shifting situation and repeats the same patterns.

This outcome was inevitable - at some point.

I think Chez is coming at the game completely differently than CR is. Chez appears to be playing the game more as a simulation or recreation of historical events while CR is playing the game for its own sake - and hence capitalizing on Allied capabilities and strategies that would have been politically impossible at the time. The combining of the British and Allied carriers or BB's is great in a game but isn't really something that one would see in a WWII Pacific reenactment for the 1942 time frame. IRL the Japanese did not hesitate to break up the KB, for the game players on the forum it is a sign of poor play - for a simulator is it part of the reenactment. Using commercial vessels that should be fleeing destruction is something a 'simulator' can't grasp while a 'gamer' sees it as a way to save combat vessels.

1. If Chez was the "historic" player you make him out to be, why did he want to play Scenario 2? How is invading Fiji and Samoa in early 1942 historic? Dan is also a known quantity on these forums. His aggressive and bold style is well known and documented. Point being that he should have known what he was getting into from the start. You may be correct but I see no evidence to support your position from the game

2. The combined TF during the battle of the Java Sea contained ships from four navies (RNN, RN RAN, and USN). What caused the dissolution of ABDA was not an unwillingness to work together but the strategic situation in the DEI. The alternate reality presented here merely shows an extrapolation of ABDA's existance if the Allies had held in early 1942. Dan did not combine the RN carriers and the USN carriers, he simply had them in support of each other.

How can a Japan player undertake a SoPac adventure as seen here and then cry foul when the Allied player pours his resources into the area where the Japan player who is playing in "historic" mode should be sending all his forces?

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/29/2011 1:15:24 AM

JeffroK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

What's this JFB stuff? Surely there's just good and bad play? A good player could take any side with facility. I think CR will provide a solid challenge to most irrespective of the side he plays. Good strategy is universal.

Absolutely Nemo! JFB's recognize good play and it is indeed universal regardless of the side. It's just happening a wee bit too much on the Allied side of late. Japan needs a morale boost.

I think CR, and to an extent GreyJoy have shown up a weakness in the methods used by many JFB. (Sorry if I've missed others, I dont read all AAR and I am sure there are JFB showing up weaknesses of AFB)

Many JFB use the KB like a bull in a china shop and dont worry a lot about a solid strategy, they get away with a lot as many AFB go into a shell, do the Sir Robin and allow the JFB to stay on the offensive.

CR marked his line in the sand at Palembang and threw Chez's "plans" into disarray, GreyJoy got cajoled into defending Gcanal and Rader didnt have any other options up his sleeve. Both JFB have then committed major errors and are suffering.

I could imagine both Chez & Rader had plans to sweep across the map (Rader nearly succeeded) and no plans to deal with a determined Allied player.

I hope Chez doesnt throw it in as many illinformed are suggesting, It could be good for JFB to have to fight from this position and in this time period. It would at least provide tips for others. (Maybe lack of an AAR by Chez has taken away some of the support from the crowd that might keep his interest up)

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(in reply to SqzMyLemon)

Post #: 1679

RE: Das darf nicht var sein! - 9/29/2011 1:17:19 AM

desicat

Posts: 542
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline

I am in no way saying that CR did anything gamey or wrong, I was just thinking that Chez came at the game in an entirely different manner. CR's style had caught Chez flat footed from the get go and that would explain Chez' forced delay into the DEI. Chez had an initial invasion thrust that CR demolished with a nice strike by a surface battle group.

Chez didn't cry foul - in fact I have no idea what he is thinking. I was just offering my poor opinion of how I viewed his play style.

(in reply to vettim89)

Post #: 1680