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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 12:47:52 PM

alfonso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

And, as a final note, a pocket can subsist more or less indefinitely if it is not attacked seriously, so it could be a little tricky to deduce conclusions from a real-life pocket without making references to the efforts made to force its surrender (in one game as Russian I still have some surrounded NKVD regiments at the frontier two months after the war began)

Nope! Playing the Soviets, some of my surrounded units seem to surrender of themselves after a couple of turns. This is displayed as a "Soviet" (Red) combat indicator that just says that the unit has surrendered. Naturally I try to discourage this deplorable lack of spirit by sending their relatives to the Gulag, but unfortunately that seems to have only limited success...

OK, I edit...
And, as a final note, a pocket can usually subsist more or less indefinitely if it is not attacked seriously, so it could be a little tricky to deduce conclusions from a real-life pocket without making references to the efforts made to force its surrender (in one game as Russian I still have some surrounded NKVD regiments at the frontier two months after the war began)

OOps, but I was referring in the first part of the paragrapgh to real-life pockets. Poor redaction from my side, it seems. But as I cannot say with certainty what happened in every case, the caution seems necessary anyway.

< Message edited by alfonso -- 2/24/2011 12:55:29 PM >

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 1:51:14 PM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

It's not the treatment of cities that are the problem. It is how isolation is treated. That could use some rethinking.

+1

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Post #: 32

RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 1:56:04 PM

Q-Ball

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Maybe units should suffer a big morale drop when they are forced to retreat, and there is no retreat path.

Low-morale Soviet units in 1941 would then surrender anyway, just like they did. Higher-morale units would hold out for a couple of those before surrendering.

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Post #: 33

RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 2:50:22 PM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

I have made some searches at the Wikipedia (yes, not the most authoritative source, but…)

Berlin 1945: 24 April- 2 May (1 TURN)

Riga 1941: 29 June-1 July (1 TURN)

Kharkov 1943: 7 March-15 March (1 TURN)

Kiev 1941: isolated 16 September, city itself surrendered 19 September, last forces in the pocket 26 September (less than 2 TURNS)

Minsk 1944: Bagration commenced 22 June, Minsk fell 4 July, 8 July surrender of 4th Army (2-3 TURNS)

Rostov 1941: German assault began 17 November-city captured 21 November (1 TURN)

Breslau 1945: 13 February-6 May 1945 (buff, 12 TURNS ??!!!)

Smolensk 1943: “On 25 September, after an assault-crossing of the northern Dnieper and street fighting that lasted all night, Soviet troops completed the liberation of Smolensk” The Smolensk operation had begun 7 September, but the battle for the city itself was shorter.

We have also the battles of Konigsberg and Sevastopol, although it is difficult discern between a “simple” siege and the real fight

In the game, after Leningrad is isolated, you need about 4 Turns to force the surrender. I do not know how many turns would be necessary to force the surrender of a 6th Army at Stalingrad, athough I think it is unlikely it could last more than 5 turns under heavy attack.

The Soviet troops in the Kharkov operation in May 1942 (not a city battle, though) were surrounded during 24 May, and surrendered the “next turn”, 30 May. Well, that would be another (but related) topic, that of the surrounded troops, not necessarily inside a city.

And, as a final note, a pocket can subsist more or less indefinitely if it is not attacked seriously, so it could be a little tricky to deduce conclusions from a real-life pocket without making references to the efforts made to force its surrender (in one game as Russian I still have some surrounded NKVD regiments at the frontier two months after the war began)

This seems like a lot of selective searching.
Siege of Sevastopol oct 30 1941 - july 4 1942 - 8 months about 32 turns.
Odessa - Aug 8 - Oct 16 (9 turns)

There are more but i'm actually going to have to look more later. At work atm.

Also i am not sure what you are talking about with pockets able to live on indefinitely. In all my games the attacking player just has to wait out the people surrendering. I'd be willing to take a guess of at least 85% of my forces surrendered without having a shot fired.

edit: didn't see later posts where you said real life pockets. Though soviet troops still fought to the last in a lot of cases. Being captured was a treasonous offense/crime in the ussr. It wasn't until the frontier battles were over that morale was starting to cause a lot of deserting etc. At least that's how it sounds from reading "absolute war" and glantz smolensk book.

< Message edited by bwheatley -- 2/24/2011 2:54:17 PM >

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 3:08:12 PM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
This seems like a lot of selective searching.
Siege of Sevastopol oct 30 1941 - july 4 1942 - 8 months about 32 turns.
Odessa - Aug 8 - Oct 16 (9 turns)

Don't forget that both of these pockets could also hold out in the game as well due to port supply rules.

I would like to see pockets put up a little more resistance though as long as morale is good and especially if a good leader is present.Certainly assaulting an isolated city should be almost as daunting as a supplied city on the first turn of isolation.Not impossible, just heavy casualties expected.On turn two of isolation the defensive CV's should weaken to simulate the supply situation.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 2/24/2011 3:18:42 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 3:17:10 PM

2ndACR

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Yes a pocket can last a long time, if they are not attacked at all. But bump a unit and it will go bye bye.

Low morale can cause units to surrender by themselves if isolated. Isolated rules need to be looked at real hard. Because right now, they are basically dead meat with no hope of being saved. Especially during the blizzard. No hope for any cut off unit.

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Post #: 36

RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 3:29:18 PM

Mynok

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I'm thinking that maybe morale should modify the CV effects of isolation. A high-morale isolated unit with plenty of supplies should not be easy pickings. Perhaps also each turn requires a morale check and if failed, causes morale to drop a lot (and thus CV). Supply of course would be used normally, which would of course eventually cause supply problems. Large cities would provide a boost to the morale check roll.

This should not drastically effect the 41 campaign if the morale check roll is properly designed. Soviets have poor morale in 41 and thus would almost certainly fail their morale checks and be ripe for surrender. However, there would be the possibility for a unit with good leadership to be stubborn.

This seems doable and workable.

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Post #: 37

RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 5:06:15 PM

Baron von Beer

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Just to nitpick, those Berlin & Kharkov examples are 9 days, 2 turns.

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 5:39:12 PM

Mehring

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Didn't beta 5 tweek the morale of isolated units? And aren't supply stocks in cities available to their isolated defenders?

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Post #: 39

RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 6:26:33 PM

heliodorus04

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

Didn't beta 5 tweek the morale of isolated units? And aren't supply stocks in cities available to their isolated defenders?

In reference to my above mention where I encircled Leningrad (vs. AI) on Turn 12, I'm very surprised that 2 turns into their siege defense, they are giving 18 Army all it can handle. In 2 turns of isolation, where I face a belt of Level 4 forts that is 3 hexes deep (including the north side of the Neva River), I have taken exactly 4 hexes and have seen 3 more "Held" results (two of those on the 2nd turn of isolation).

This is the strongest defense in isolation I've yet to see.
FWIW...
These 7 attacks were all deliberate, and by at least 2 full-strength, reinforced 18 Army divisions, sometimes 3 divisions.

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 2/24/2011 6:27:08 PM >

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 6:27:55 PM

morganbj

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Well, we have to be very careful that this isn't tweaked too much the other way so that the Germans have to "siege" Kiev, Lvov, Misk, Brest Litovsk, etc. for a month or more early in the campaign. That WOULD be what happens if it's tweaked too much. Operation Typhoon might be at the gates of Misk.

I agree that the isolation rules are a bit off, but the game still seems to flow rather well as they are. In some cases they don't work well, but in other instances they work fine. So, I think any adjustments would have to be very carefully thought out. I'd just caution that you might regret what you wish for.

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 7:05:43 PM

alfonso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

This seems like a lot of selective searching.
Siege of Sevastopol oct 30 1941 - july 4 1942 - 8 months about 32 turns.
Odessa - Aug 8 - Oct 16 (9 turns)

I mentioned Sevastopol, although it is not isolated. I have seen Odessa resisting many turns in some PBEM games. It is difficult to create an unbiased list of cities, because when the fight is longer , tends to be more famous. But if I look at the map, there are a lot of cities whose captures seem to be less known. My guess (and it is only a guess, I admit it) is that in most cases the fight was not very long. For instance, I know nothing about the Battles of Gomel , Novgorod , Pskov, Bryansk. There should be at least 2 battles each (German capture and Russian liberation). Any random city is OK for that. Leipzig, Lodz, Orel, Lvov, Zhitomir, BUDAPEST! (this is famous!). The question is: which one is the "rule" and which one is the exception?

As most people here thinks that a city should resist a couple of turns, I would expect that they have checked that most of those battles did last something between 10 and 17 days (1.5-2.5 weeks). Then even we can debate if 8 days are 1 turn or 2 turns. Or 9 days.

And in reality, as I have not made that study, I am not sure at all. But I am curious why many players seem to think there is something wrong. Wrong when compared to what?

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 7:21:26 PM

Mynok

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Sevastopol is definitely an exception as it was massively fortified. Odessa I'm not so sure about. The critical difference with those two is that they both received supply via sea and were NOT isolated.

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 9:22:39 PM

Smirfy

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For me its not the isolation its the fact that cities are so valueless that nobody risks isolation trying to defend them

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 9:40:06 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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Indeed what's a value of the city once the industry is destroyed? I took Moscow in one PBEM, and am trying to decide, if and when the counter attack comes, should I defend it desperately or just leave at first sign of trouble....? Industry that was there was captured and (I presume) destroyed for good. What exactly will I lose and Soviet gain by retaking huge city like Moscow? What happens to manpower when a city changes hands repeatedly?

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 10:26:11 PM

Emx77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
What exactly will I lose and Soviet gain by retaking huge city like Moscow? What happens to manpower when a city changes hands repeatedly?

They will have more recruits latter, I guess. If my calculation is correct and Soviets retake one of three Moscow hex at 89% damage and if it has 29 manpower points at turn X, with 3% repair rate (manual p. 282) Soviets will start to recruit there in about 4,5 months (20 turns). They will be able to recruit:

29 x 0.51 (damage) x 50 (multiplier for 1942) = 740 soldiers at turn X+20,
29 x 0.52 (damage) x 50 (multiplier for 1942) = 754 soldiers at turn X+21
etc.

Can someone confirm is this correct?

EDIT 1: Data in example above are taken from my first game against AI (turn 25 - 4. december. 1941).
EDIT 2: Or it shoud be 15 turns if we start with damage base of 11% (+ 3% each turn)?

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 2/24/2011 10:48:53 PM >

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 11:06:56 PM

timmyab

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I think that cities would be much more significant if they took on their rightful role as transport hubs.This might require a lot of coding and it's possibly not even practical at this stage, but I do think it would add enormously to the stratigic possibilities on the map.
If you gave each rail line a value so that the number of units, factories and amount of supply that could be carried was limited, then the main lines and particularly places where those main lines meet (i.e. cities) would become very valuable.At the moment, if your opponent captures one of your cities, who cares?There are loads of alternative rail lines, the stuff just goes around the city.If the other lines had limited capacity, then you'd start to feel the real significance of major cities.This would be particularly relevant for units close to the captured city with supplies, replacements and reinforcements all potentially affected.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 2/24/2011 11:08:02 PM >

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/24/2011 11:23:42 PM

Zemke

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I also saw this as a problem and have posted on it in the past. Bottom line is the isolation model just does not "ring true", along with 41-42 German winter casualties. More than simple tweaking is needed here, as one posted has noted, simple changes risk the dynamics of the early game to fix both issues.

I think the root both isssues is the combat model and how combat is modeled. 2-1 odds and you win, less you don't, with lots of possible factors (dice rolls) to get there. There is a reason why in the military we use a MINIUM of 3-1 odds for any attack, and really prefer 4 to 5-1 and that includes all modifiers to that. Remember I said combat power not numbers, very different. Combat power takes into account ALL factors, morale, training, leadership, discipline, equipment, supplies, and these factors are not equal. I would argue that leadership, (at all levels) is the most important, then training, then discipline, morale, equipment and last supplies. A well lead, well disciplined, well trained unit can make due with very little when the chips are down....IMO

Also, I think the casualties model does not feel right to me, and I cannot really say what it is, but certain combat losses should be high, losses for the losser should be very high if they panic or break, while loses should be lighter for attacking units with overwhelming combat power in open terrain, with lots of tank support, (Panzer Division or Tank Corp) attacking a low moral, 0 fortification level, understrength infantry unit.

< Message edited by Zemke_4 -- 2/24/2011 11:29:44 PM >

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/25/2011 10:42:51 AM

barkman44

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it seems to me that Hube's "wandering"pocket would be impossible to replicate in the game on account of cv drop.

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/25/2011 12:37:04 PM

alfonso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

it seems to me that Hube's "wandering"pocket would be impossible to replicate in the game on account of cv drop.

From Wikipedia

"On 25 March 1944, the last line of communications corridor out of Hube's bridgehead located on the northern bank of the Dniester was severed at Khotyn"

"By 5 April, the advanced guards of both the northern and southern columns had reached the Strypa River, and on the 6th, near the town of Buczacz, they linked up with the probing reconnaissance elements of Hausser's SS Divisions"

25 March-6 April=12 days isolated. Not that long. One of the most renowned pockets in the East front lasted 2 TURNs. I would think this was somewhat extraordinary.

What was the duration of the Korsun pocket? 2-3 weeks? has anyone re-created (or tried to) that scenario in the game?

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RE: Cities… just another terrain hex - 2/25/2011 4:24:56 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

it seems to me that Hube's "wandering"pocket would be impossible to replicate in the game on account of cv drop.

Yes. And there were many other wandering pockets - even some Soviet 1941 pockets marched east at high speed and many of the troops within actually made it back to friendly lines...

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