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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)?

 
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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/11/2011 10:59:11 PM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Entrenchment build rates went up and down like proverbial yo-yos during testing. I think I would quit if I had to test another change!

The problem is that rates that might seem to fast in 1941 are too slow for the Axis in 1943, when they are desperate for any defensive modifier they can lay there hands on. The build rates have to work for the whole war.


How about a reference table of build rates within the system, set on a per year and per side basis?

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(in reply to karonagames)
Post #: 91
RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/12/2011 2:14:04 AM   
bednarre

 

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Joined: 2/23/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Entrenchment build rates went up and down like proverbial yo-yos during testing. I think I would quit if I had to test another change!

The problem is that rates that might seem to fast in 1941 are too slow for the Axis in 1943, when they are desperate for any defensive modifier they can lay there hands on. The build rates have to work for the whole war.



How about a reference table of build rates within the system, set on a per year and per side basis?





BigAnorak:

If both the Germans and Russians avoided building 1000 mile long bunker lines in the actual war, why are these modeled so critical in the game?



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(in reply to Redmarkus5)
Post #: 92
RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/12/2011 2:52:27 AM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bednarre


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Entrenchment build rates went up and down like proverbial yo-yos during testing. I think I would quit if I had to test another change!

The problem is that rates that might seem to fast in 1941 are too slow for the Axis in 1943, when they are desperate for any defensive modifier they can lay there hands on. The build rates have to work for the whole war.



How about a reference table of build rates within the system, set on a per year and per side basis?





BigAnorak:

If both the Germans and Russians avoided building 1000 mile long bunker lines in the actual war, why are these modeled so critical in the game?




I think the answer is:

Because its an IGO/UGO system and its easy to mass 3:1 numbers on the attack.
Without entrenchements to give the defender an artificial boost, the game would quickly degenerate into a few turns of massive attacks (on each side), followed probably by the end of the war.

There's other ways to balance the system mind you (an inherent defender bonus, easier reserves, command limits on the attack, etc, but it looks like the current version of WITE is balanced around the defender being fortified.

(in reply to bednarre)
Post #: 93
RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/12/2011 2:37:50 PM   
bednarre

 

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Joined: 2/23/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey


quote:

ORIGINAL: bednarre


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Entrenchment build rates went up and down like proverbial yo-yos during testing. I think I would quit if I had to test another change!

The problem is that rates that might seem to fast in 1941 are too slow for the Axis in 1943, when they are desperate for any defensive modifier they can lay there hands on. The build rates have to work for the whole war.



How about a reference table of build rates within the system, set on a per year and per side basis?





BigAnorak:

If both the Germans and Russians avoided building 1000 mile long bunker lines in the actual war, why are these modeled so critical in the game?




I think the answer is:

Because its an IGO/UGO system and its easy to mass 3:1 numbers on the attack.
Without entrenchements to give the defender an artificial boost, the game would quickly degenerate into a few turns of massive attacks (on each side), followed probably by the end of the war.

There's other ways to balance the system mind you (an inherent defender bonus, easier reserves, command limits on the attack, etc, but it looks like the current version of WITE is balanced around the defender being fortified.



One thing I have noticed is that there is little difference between the attack CV and defense CV values. I would think an infantry division would have significantly higher defense CV, given that machine guns and artillery are much more effective on defense (against troops in the open and with higher density). Likewise, I would think the panzer divisions would have a somewhat higher attack CV (compared with defense CV), given their lack of infantry and the fact that tanks don't observe as well as infantry. The defenders do usually get the first shots in. What do you think about changing the relative CVs of the Germans and Russians, perhaps bringing them closer together? Russian losses in 1943 and 1944 were horrendous against Germans in just foxholes and trenches. Also, the Wehrmacht suffered grevious losses (compared with its replacement rates) in 1941, even though they make great breakthroughs.

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Post #: 94
RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/13/2011 4:49:17 PM   
Altaris

 

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Joined: 8/14/2009
Status: offline 		Reached turn 4 in my HtH test game vs myself with forts set to 35%. I'm mostly going historic route, with a few small modifications I wanted to test out (sending some of the motorized divisions from AGC to AGS mostly). I'm finding progress to be much more reasonable compared to history with these settings. Turn 4 corresponds to July 10th, the date Guderian crossed the Dnepr west of Smolensk. I didn't quite make it, but did get far enough into the land bridge to mount an attack next turn over the minor river hex-side (but I also had about 4 less motorized divisions in AGC, so this seems about right to me). This would never happen before with Soviets concentrating up lvl 2-3 forts throughout the land-bridge and behind the Dnepr by this time. I still doubt I'll take Smolensk next turn (July 17th, historical date Smolensk fell), probably the turn after.

In general, what I'm seeing is that a division close to a front HQ with labor squads can still get to lvl 1 forts in 1 turn... but only if they don't move first. Lvl 2 forts require either moving in more divisions to the hex to be fortified if you want to pull it off in a turn or two. I imagined lvl 3 forts have to be a very heavy undertaking in either divisions or time, which seems appropriate giving their effect.

So far, I'm liking the changes, think they feel very appropriate. Hard to tell at this point whether this setting is right or too much, I think a lot depends on how well the Soviets can build forts once we get closer in to Moscow.

Also, keep in mind that I'm playing with the advantage of knowing how the Soviet dispositions are laid out, so I'm probably doing just a tad better than I would otherwise.

< Message edited by Altaris -- 3/13/2011 4:50:09 PM >

(in reply to bednarre)
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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/14/2011 8:33:47 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Altaris

Reached turn 4 in my HtH test game vs myself with forts set to 35%.


Setting forts to 35% in a PBEM 1941 GC game would be suicide for the Russian player.

(in reply to Altaris)
Post #: 96
RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/14/2011 3:05:56 PM   
Altaris

 

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Joined: 8/14/2009
Status: offline 		It's not as extreme as you might think at 35%. Basically, forts tend to be 1 level lower than with vanilla settings. Lvl 1 forts still go up in 1 turn, provided the unit doesn't move and there's some help from construction SU's. Lvl 2's take a few turns for 1 division in a hex, but can still go from 1 to 2 in a turn with a big commitment (3 divisions in a hex). I just hit turn 5, and the Soviets already have lvl 2 forts behind most of the Dnepr, both in the center and the south. What this also tells me is that in vanilla, there should be zero problem getting to lvl 3 forts behind the Dnepr by the time the Germans can realistically get to it... which is a problem for mirroring reality, since this means they'll get bogged down well before crossing the Dnepr or reaching Smolensk in a PBEM GC.

Keep in mind I'm testing this via a PBEM against myself, and I'm being super aggressive with the Germans (since I know the Soviets weaknesses as I'm playing them too).

It requires a lot more careful planning on the Soviet part, as you really need to get units to the hexes you want to defend, and have them start building ASAP. It also makes the Soviet think twice before giving up those hard built lvl 2 forts.

It may end up being too much. What remains to be seen is how well the Soviets can regroup once the initial fortifications are breached. But my gut tells me it's still going to be fairly realistic. In AGS, they'll lose a lot of ground (this happened historically once the Dnepr was breached). In AGC, they'll be able to regroup fairly effectively in the woods/cities areas and slow down (but not flat out stop) a drive on Moscow.

Most importantly, they won't be able to build a wall of impenetrable lvl 3-4 forts in winter/early spring of 1942.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 97
RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/15/2011 11:09:54 PM   
Altaris

 

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Joined: 8/14/2009
Status: offline 		Here's a little chart I put together showing build times in a hex at 1/2/3 division intervals, comparing the amount of time at 100%, 50%, and 35% fort level settings. I'm leaning now towards 50% probably being about right, 35% does seem to put the Soviets at a disadvantage. This assumes that each division has a construction rating of 38, which seems about standard.




As you can see, there is absolutely no problem at generic 100% settings throwing up level 2 forts from nothing within 2 turns. All you need is 2 divisions in the hex (and 1 could've only been there part of the 2nd turn). Within 4 turns, it's pretty simple to get up to lvl 3, which is going to cause the Axis some problems by fall.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Altaris -- 3/15/2011 11:11:52 PM >

(in reply to Altaris)
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RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/16/2011 2:19:28 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		Soviet RR construction brigades have 200 labor squads, worth a construction value of 40 ( for the whole unit ); if I remember the manual correctly as having 1 point of value worth 2% of a fort level, that's 80% of a level wherever one of these big boys is deployed.  Add that to a rifle division that's receiving the help, the lower fort level building does come quickly.

< Message edited by randallw -- 3/16/2011 2:21:57 AM >

(in reply to Altaris)
Post #: 99
RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/16/2011 2:55:29 AM   
Joel Billings


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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		These are the fort changes we have in test now working to put out a 1.04 beta 1 version:

4. Rule Changes to fort level construction rules:
(a) (Section 15.3.2.1) Decreased the fort build rates as follows:
Fort Level 0 3.0 (was 3.0, no change)
Fort Level 1 1.0 (was 1.0, no change)
Fort Level 2 0.25 (was 0.33)
Fort Level 3 0.05 (was 0.10)
Fort Level 4 0.01 (was 0.02)
(b) Construction values are reduced based on the supply level of the unit. In no event will they be reduced below 20% of normal due to supply level.
(c) Level 5 forts may continue to build up to 10% over level 5. This allows them to take some damage and still remain at Level 5.
(d) Artillery (especially Heavy Artillery) can cause small fort reductions during combat.
(e) Fort build rates for building forts greater than 3 can be divided by 2 if a leader admin check fails.


Also fixed this bug:

31. Fixed a bug preventing support units directly attached to combat units from helping in fort construction. Also fixed a bug that had allowed “inactive” support units to allow in fort construction.

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(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 100
RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/17/2011 1:37:00 AM   
Altaris

 

Posts: 216
Joined: 8/14/2009
Status: offline 		Interesting changes, particularly about supply affecting the build rate of forts. That will definitely help keep the forts from going up quite so fast in those first few turns. Will be interesting to see what the testers think of it.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 101
RE: Do forts build too fast (particularly for Soviets)? - 3/19/2011 8:12:17 PM   
Zort

 

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Status: offline 		My worry is the 3 to 5 hex deep fort lines.  Started the GC42 scenario and having only one line of forts is bad.  In my GC41 game my sov opponent had 4 hexes deep of forts of all levels.  I know that this is a game mechanic but at this scale, I believe an unrealistic fort depth.  Glad there are some changes but don't see much of a change to a defense in depth.  The sov figures what his main line will be in Dec 41, pushes the germans back during the blizzard, starts building until Jun.  He will have 3-4 hexes deep of lvl 2-3 forts easy I think.  So seeing a German successful summer offense will be slim. Let's hope the changes will be effective, otherwise WW1 starts in Jun 42....

(in reply to Altaris)
Post #: 102
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