RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis)

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 9:41:20 PM

TulliusDetritus

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So, Plan A => right hook + AGN Panzers + AGC Northern Panzer Army = Leningrad is the objective...

Well, the AGN Panzers are near Pskov (only infantry in the bottleneck). The AGC Panzers are SW of the Valdai Hills after breaking my Kalinin Front. In theory the first thing they should be doing is trapping my units in the marshes SE of Pskov. In other words the two Panzer Groups would be forming a pocket. As I see it, if I manage to resist in these marshes 2 or 3 turns, maybe Leningrad would be 60% safe

So I have to reinforce the part in which the pocket could be closed, south of Lake Ilmen that is. Because I will NOT be retreating my units from these marshes. At least on this turn.

I will bring many units from the center (now they only face infantry, so no problem), which will be basically covering the eastern part of the Lake Ilmen (if the try to go to Leningrad that way) and his right flank. Simply my mentioned axiom: concentrate your forces around the most dangerous enemy units.

Oh, and I think I should bring like 2 more cavalry divisions. In fact, I CAN cut his spearhad off this turn (and that's what's I will do). And that's ONLY possible because I already HAVE cavalry on this area. As you can see, not good fighters but they can cut your enemy off, and that slows your opponent down (at least in theory)

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< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 3/18/2011 10:07:34 PM >

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 9:55:56 PM

TulliusDetritus

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BUT maybe Plan A does not exist. Maybe it's Plan B... a much more ambitious maneuver...

The big objective might be a mega massive encirclement... The northern pincer would be the AGC Northern Panzer Army near the Valdai Hills. And the southern pincer would be the AGC Southern Panzer Army + AGS Panzers...

I guess I should form a line Bryansk - Orel - Voronezh to contain him. As Alfonso said, many reserves will be appearing on the next weeks.

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< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 3/18/2011 9:56:46 PM >

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 9:56:19 PM

Encircled

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Whats his fuel situation like with his Panzers?

If its poor, then stay put as he will unable to do much, and you could cause him some real problems

If its good, then you will be encircled south of Lake Ilmen next turn (unless you have some fairly serious fortifications there.

If he has used HQ buildup, then you could be looking at a very serious situation

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 10:02:22 PM

Encircled

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Sorry, posted before screenshot #2

You have to withdraw from the Pripet, and make sure he can't smash northwards

He's actually made a bit of an error in the break through on the Kallinn front, as he's pointed very obviously towards Leningrad (even his unoccupied hexes are that way). It could be a feint, but why didn't he go directly east (he can threaten both Leningrad and Moscow, and you'd have no idea where he was going)

Its not as bad as it looks, but that carpet defence isn't great unless you have fortifications all over the place.

Checkerboard in the south and north of the breakthrough to slow him down. If he's ramped his air inderdiction up (which he should have) then you might have trouble getting the troops into position

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 10:02:39 PM

alfonso

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1) As I see it, his right hook has commenced too far away, so you are right: he will need the region just below Lake Ilmen. But it seems too risky for you not to extract some Reserve or Northwestern (well, brown and yellow

) front divisions to cover that region.

2) Are you sure you cannot cut the penetration at the base, too? There is only a width of 2 hexes...

3) Besides, I think he is a couple of turns behind schedule to try the right hook

Therefore, I think you are going to stop him. But he has shown he has a lot of creativity. Nice battle.

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 10:10:47 PM

Klydon

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Ouch, that is a serious amount of units south of Lake Ilmen that he is putting a serious threat on. Even if he doesn't dash for the back door, just getting that pocket shut would cause huge losses. The thing to be really careful of with that manuver is his forces do not have to link with each other. All he has to do is to get to Lake Ilmen with both forces to put the pocket into isolation. Whatever you have coming in better be able to break an encirclement I would think, although by bringing in a lot of troops on his SW flank like that, you are going to force him to leave a lot of troops behind for flank protection on both sides.

A potentially good move by him, but could also backfire on him although it is early enough he can bail on it if he has to. Apparently, he didn't see your last AAR.

< Message edited by Klydon -- 3/18/2011 10:11:51 PM >

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 10:11:26 PM

alfonso

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OK, screenshot 2...

I think it is very unlikely. Because you can withdraw a lot of units of your carpet defenses in the Dnieper to form a checkerboard the Vyazma-Bryansk region. It is hard to believe that 100 MP (50+50 in the worst case for you) will be enough. You can count hexes, and rivers...

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 10:22:13 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Whats his fuel situation like with his Panzers?

If its poor, then stay put as he will unable to do much, and you could cause him some real problems

If its good, then you will be encircled south of Lake Ilmen next turn (unless you have some fairly serious fortifications there.

If he has used HQ buildup, then you could be looking at a very serious situation

LOLOLOL I am an utter moron

His fuel situation can be seen? Where? I simply didn't know I could do that

Please tell me where this "fuel situation" is: what menu, etc.

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 10:29:02 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

1) As I see it, his right hook has commenced too far away, so you are right: he will need the region just below Lake Ilmen. But it seems too risky for you not to extract some Reserve or Northwestern (well, brown and yellow ) front divisions to cover that region.

2) Are you sure you cannot cut the penetration at the base, too? There is only a width of 2 hexes...

3) Besides, I think he is a couple of turns behind schedule to try the right hook

Therefore, I think you are going to stop him. But he has shown he has a lot of creativity. Nice battle.

Alfonso, I'll be covering the most dangerous parts, don't worry (well, at least that's my plan). If I think 5 or 6 divisions on these marshes must be sacrificed, I will do it without batting an eyelid though

I mean, if that buys me let's say 2 or 3 turns

I can be a harsh Boss-in-Chief...

No, I can't cut this spearhead off on its base.

I hope I will be able to stop him. Not sure about this though

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 10:34:27 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Ouch, that is a serious amount of units south of Lake Ilmen that he is putting a serious threat on. Even if he doesn't dash for the back door, just getting that pocket shut would cause huge losses. The thing to be really careful of with that manuver is his forces do not have to link with each other. All he has to do is to get to Lake Ilmen with both forces to put the pocket into isolation. Whatever you have coming in better be able to break an encirclement I would think, although by bringing in a lot of troops on his SW flank like that, you are going to force him to leave a lot of troops behind for flank protection on both sides.

As I have said, I will stay one more turn here. I'll be cutting off the northern part of his advance and bringing forces around him: NW, N, NE and E.

quote:

A potentially good move by him, but could also backfire on him although it is early enough he can bail on it if he has to. Apparently, he didn't see your last AAR.

In fact he did

Ahhhh, yes, the Lake Ilmen... that's where I annihilated my first opponent's AGN hordes (13 divisions + 2 SS brigades)

I don't think it will be possible though... but... if... somehow... humm... yes... no... maybe... who knows...

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 10:45:14 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Sorry, posted before screenshot #2

Checkerboard in the south and north of the breakthrough to slow him down. If he's ramped his air inderdiction up (which he should have) then you might have trouble getting the troops into position

Humm, no, I don't want to slow him down

I want to STOP him

As long as he does not clear my units in the marshes southeast of Pskov an advance towards the north should be rather dangerous (for him) if I am not mistaken. A long & thin corridor with many of my hordes next to his two flanks. I love it!

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 10:55:55 PM

Reconvet

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Looking at this map and your opponent's moves I'd say he goes for a pincer south of lake ilmen (my yellow arrows on TD's map), trying to bag forces which would block his right hook if allowed to retreat.

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 11:17:50 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Reconvert, yes, all indicates it should be Plan A: operations in the north that is. As I said, I will keep units in these marshes. But I guess I don't need to keep the 100%. Part of them should retreat let's say to south of Lake Ilmen. It would be stupid to let them die. After all, their fate would be in the hands of other units fighting a little more in the north for them

But 5 divisions there could slow his operation down maybe 1 or 2 turns. And IF I manage to stop him from forming that pocket on let's say this turn and next one... I should throw my hordes to his right flank...

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 11:19:54 PM

Q-Ball

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I played 2ndACR breifly in a test game, and I noticed in that one that he really was bold, perhaps reckless, with his Panzers. I cut them off several times, and though he re-established contact each time, it had an admitted effect on supply and movement.

That penetration around V-L is very dangerous for him, and totally exposed. It should be pretty easy to swamp either side of that, and at least create a bloody mess that he has to attack to get out of.

If you get a breakthrough like that, you have to seal-off your flanks, ideally by encircling the units.

Nice job T-D, but you seem to have a knack for selecting opponents who are not worried about flank security...

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/18/2011 11:36:00 PM

PeeDeeAitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Nice job T-D, but you seem to have a knack for selecting opponents who are not worried about flank security...

Which is why I should never, ever play TD...

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 12:24:00 AM

cookie monster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Whats his fuel situation like with his Panzers?

If its poor, then stay put as he will unable to do much, and you could cause him some real problems

If its good, then you will be encircled south of Lake Ilmen next turn (unless you have some fairly serious fortifications there.

If he has used HQ buildup, then you could be looking at a very serious situation

LOLOLOL I am an utter moron His fuel situation can be seen? Where? I simply didn't know I could do that Please tell me where this "fuel situation" is: what menu, etc.

In theory IIRC...

You can select SHOW FUEL LEVELS as a soft indicator.

If the detection level is high enough on his units, you may be able to see their fuel levels.

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 12:53:40 AM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Whats his fuel situation like with his Panzers?

If its poor, then stay put as he will unable to do much, and you could cause him some real problems

If its good, then you will be encircled south of Lake Ilmen next turn (unless you have some fairly serious fortifications there.

If he has used HQ buildup, then you could be looking at a very serious situation

LOLOLOL I am an utter moron His fuel situation can be seen? Where? I simply didn't know I could do that Please tell me where this "fuel situation" is: what menu, etc.

It's one of the toggles you can pick to change what the little triangles at the corners mean.

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 2:28:57 AM

TulliusDetritus

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LOL!

So I was a blind man walking!

LOL!

I knew the soft factors thing, but never used it... I thought it was only showing information about MY units!

Now I can see! Praise Encircled, Cookie Monster and Mynok

Mwhahahahahaha! His panzers fuel situation is in the red (the ones I will be hugging). That has to be a bad thing, I suspect

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< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 3/19/2011 2:29:52 AM >

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 3:02:05 AM

randallw

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I knew about the toggle from the manual but didn't bother with it for awhile; I thought "eehhh, I don't need it". Turns out I did.

Unfortunately there is no toggle ( yet ) for ammo load.

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 4:50:20 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Ok, so this is more or less what I am going to do to stop my opponent. I hope Q-Ball is prophetic

This is the FIRST step, as I have to reorganize the forces: I have brought 14 divisions from the different armies in the Western and Bryansk Fronts. I will possibly end up bringing more hordes.

P.S.: I don't think I'll be doing the turn right now. My 7 year old niece is at home AND wants to use the computer

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 6:39:45 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Ok, phase one: sort of "softening" the AGN advance...

AGN 8 Panzer division attacked and forced to retreat. Two attacks. The first one was a deliberate attack. The German division held. Then one of Rokossovski's MONSTER tank divisions (6=12) did a second attack: a hasty attack... and the Germans ran away

Who said these tank divisions were useless?

EDIT: oh, and I forgot to mention that Pskov was captured. Yes, that can be seen on the screenshot.

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< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 3/19/2011 6:49:44 PM >

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 7:08:29 PM

alfonso

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Had this battle been against another opponent, maybe we could read another utter madness thread

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 7:23:50 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Madness? This is madness! This is LENINGRAD! ***Sparta Kick***

Well, I need an advice, please!

I have formed two armies (I gave them support: sappers, RR Bdes and artillery; and a good boss for the 30th: Lelyushenko). The 54th (LOL, exactly at the same place where I formed it on my other game: it was one of the armies that destroyed the AGN Panzers) and the 30th. If I assign them to their natural fronts on this area (Northern, Northwest and Kalinin) these fronts will be OVERLOADED. So, I was thinking about assigning the 30th (threatening his right flank) to the Moscow Front thing. Is that correct? What about the 54th? Do I assign it to the "natural" fronts and then overload them OR I let it attached to STAVKA itself?

Thanks in advance for your much needed suggestion

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 8:09:16 PM

alfonso

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Intuitive reply: I have not done the maths. I am assuminng that STAVKA is already overloaded.

a) If you attach the Army to the front, for each division in that front (e.g, Northern), you will have the following chain of command

Div-Army (OK)-Front (Overload)-Stavka (Overload)

b) If you attach directly the Army to the Stavka, you have

b1: for those divisions (aprox 12): Div-Army (OK)-Stavka (Overload)
b2: remaining Divisions in the Northern Front (aprox 36): Div-Army(OK)-Front(OK)-Stavka(Overload)

I think the benefit of b2 versus a more than compensates the possible detrimental (less rating checks available) effect of b1 versus a.

Therefore, I prefer b

Any other view is welcome.

< Message edited by alfonso -- 3/19/2011 8:17:33 PM >

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 8:22:02 PM

TulliusDetritus

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No, the STVAKA is not overloaded yet => 752:900

Ok, the 54th will keep being attached to STAVKA.

And the other one (30th)? Is it worth assigning it to Moscow District (it won't be overloaded)? Or attached to STAVKA is just fine?

Needless to say, thanks for your advice

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 8:33:20 PM

alfonso

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I think it is better to attach the 30th directly to a Front, in this case Moscow MD, if this Front is not overloaded. You will have one more HQ to pass the checks. I don`t remember if it is possible to move the Moscow MD, but perhaps you could transport it to bring it near the 30th Army.

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 8:41:47 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Hmm, the Moscow HQ is a static unit, it can't be moved

The Army HQ would be at 20 hexes. So I guess attached to STAVKA is just fine

Thanks again

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 8:52:42 PM

alfonso

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If the Moscow thing cannot be moved and the STAVKA is not overloaded, yes, I believe you are doing fine keeping the 30th with STAVKA, because the higher command range modifier divisor of the STAVKA might compensate for the loss of one check (again, I have not done the maths).

I normally use the Moscow MD to command an Army around Vyazma, and therefore never had that dilemma.

Have you any anti-tanks subunits somewhere?

< Message edited by alfonso -- 3/19/2011 8:56:45 PM >

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 9:43:13 PM

TulliusDetritus

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I guess I have the ones I had since the beginning of the game. One is attached to 8th army (NW) and the others to the 5th (I think) and to some Western Front Army.

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RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR ... - 3/19/2011 9:54:17 PM

Encircled

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Unless he has a Pz Corp that has been on HQ build up, that could get really ugly for him, really, really, really quickly.

If you have no fuel, you don't attempt breakthroughs like that, its suicide

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