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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 4:21:24 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

the last sub sim i played was the original Silent Hunter! (and more with Silent Service II)

oh if only there were more hours in the day. So many games....so little time in life.

I played SS1 (also an ancient classic "GATO") from Microprose on my Apple IIe with green vector graphics back in 1984. SS2 on my 386 is what earned me an AdLib sound card. It was amazing at the time to have real sound. Aces of the Deep was also an amazing game for its time: deep tactical gameplay, wolfpacks (which the Silent Hunter series to this day has never matched), wave effects, etc. But it was DOS and had some kind of sound horribleness which didn't allow it to be played in Windows DOS modes--I always got an uncontrollable screeching when I tried, so I finally reluctabtly put it on the shelf.

SH1 was also in DOS, but translated to Windows OK. There were patrol disks for that one which added a lot of gameplay. SH2 was porked and I never bought it. SH3 was brilliant, except for the Starforce infection. SH4 was a huge disappointment, and showed me just how dysfuncitonal Ubisoft is as a corporation. SH5 was an absolute abortion, requiring a continuous, real-time internet connection to play single-payer as a replacement for earlier Nazi DRM schemes lke Starforce. SH5 sank without a trace.

SH3 will go back on the new box in a dual-boot with XP, fully modded. It's a really good real-time game that you can play while watching TV. Long periods of inaction follwed by periods of terror and death. Good winter game for NFL season.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/11/2011 4:23:55 PM >

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 4:30:47 PM

Nikademus

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The most sub-bing i did was with Silent Service II, using CGA graphics (4 amazing colors!) on an old 8088 PC with a 40MB hard drive that my dad brought home from work (surplus) ah those were the days. It was my first personal experience with a "PC", having graduated from an Atari 800 with an Indus Disk Drive. The concept of a computer having an internal disk drive with what was then an amazingly huge capacity (40.....***40 MEGABYTES!!!****

) gave me goosebumps as by that time, the 8bit computer was largely dead and no new wargames were being made that they could run.

Also played lots and i do mean lots of Second Front for the PC (later changed to "War in Russia" for better branding by SSI). A combat phase took well over 15 minutes to run through

By the time i got Silent Hunter....I either was using my first purchased PC. (A packard Bell 486/SX33.....the one and only time i ever bought big name brand)....or I was using my first custom built PC...a Pentium 90Mhz.

lol.....amusing side note. I recently found an old Packard Bell "Legend" 486/SX 20 sitting by the side of the road. After cleaning it up and re-configuring the 380 MB hard drive (the BIOS battery had long died....so you had to configure the HDD every time you booted up the machine)....i was awarded with the welcome screen for Windows for Workgroups 3.11 Memory lane! Loaded the original X-wing and Out of this World on it. (yes....i still have the 3.5 floppies for these games). The former in particular forced me to relearn how to configure DOS expanded and extended memory to make it run. Lol....good thing i kept my old Packard Bell DOS 5.0 book for reference.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 3/11/2011 4:35:15 PM >

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Post #: 62

RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 4:37:16 PM

jeffk3510

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Is there a random scenario generator? Ehhh.. in other words... just randomally create a non historic map and missions...

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Post #: 63

RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 4:45:27 PM

Schanilec

Posts: 4040
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From: Grand Forks, ND
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I'm back. Had to print a drawing.

Ah the old classics. 688i, wish that one would have gotten fixed. Maybe after the game tonight I'll whip up SH III while on WitP-AE. I believe I have another patrol ready to go. I think mid or late `42. Starting to get pretty hairy with the ASW.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 4:56:40 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Interesting article on what works and what doesn't ...

I edit two controversial websites on Topix and IMO, I don't think any of these suggestions will work with "career" trolls.

nope. only sure fire way (besides banning) is to not feed the troll. Unfortunately in the case of this board's career troll....at least one person always ends up taking the bait....usually out of ignorance. As Mynok has said repeatedly.....green button is your friend.

Agreed. Trolls thrive on attention, negative or positive. So the only way to rid yourself of a troll is to starve it. So yes, the green button solves all troll problems. And even if it doesn't rid the forum of the troll, it does alleviate you from having to read their inane tripe.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 7:01:30 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
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Now you all got me thinking about how SH III runs on W7. Damnit.

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Post #: 66

RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 7:11:10 PM

LoBaron

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Does anybody know if it runs on 1920x1080?

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 7:39:05 PM

Schanilec

Posts: 4040
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Nope. All I know it works on Vista.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 10:37:43 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The most sub-bing i did was with Silent Service II, using CGA graphics (4 amazing colors!) on an old 8088 PC with a 40MB hard drive that my dad brought home from work (surplus) ah those were the days. It was my first personal experience with a "PC", having graduated from an Atari 800 with an Indus Disk Drive. The concept of a computer having an internal disk drive with what was then an amazingly huge capacity (40.....***40 MEGABYTES!!!**** ) gave me goosebumps as by that time, the 8bit computer was largely dead and no new wargames were being made that they could run.

Also played lots and i do mean lots of Second Front for the PC (later changed to "War in Russia" for better branding by SSI). A combat phase took well over 15 minutes to run through

By the time i got Silent Hunter....I either was using my first purchased PC. (A packard Bell 486/SX33.....the one and only time i ever bought big name brand)....or I was using my first custom built PC...a Pentium 90Mhz.

lol.....amusing side note. I recently found an old Packard Bell "Legend" 486/SX 20 sitting by the side of the road. After cleaning it up and re-configuring the 380 MB hard drive (the BIOS battery had long died....so you had to configure the HDD every time you booted up the machine)....i was awarded with the welcome screen for Windows for Workgroups 3.11 Memory lane! Loaded the original X-wing and Out of this World on it. (yes....i still have the 3.5 floppies for these games). The former in particular forced me to relearn how to configure DOS expanded and extended memory to make it run. Lol....good thing i kept my old Packard Bell DOS 5.0 book for reference.

Ah, memories!

Packard Hells--if that was your first big label I understand. Absolute donkey fazoo.

My first PC after the Apple IIe was a PCs Limited 286 (they later became Dell; Michael's ego wasn't big enough when he moved the business out of his dorm room.) I was in B-school and couldn't afford a real IBM PC, and a study group-mate reccoed this "mail order" thing and PC s Limited. Pretty big risk at the time. No info at all. Nada. No Internet yet for sure, and I never saw a print ad. Just an 800# that took Mastercard, and a price 50% of IBM's. Hercules monochrome amber graphics, a 6Mhz CPU WITH A TURBO SWITCH (!!!) you could flip in emergencies to go screaming up to 8 Mhz, and, wait for it, a 20 MEG HD!!!! I had been dealing with Apple floppies for years, so a HD was paradise. The whole time I owned that pig I never filled up more than 5 Meg. Today 20 Meg is one PowerPoint file.

Some of my best gaming time was playing the original Microprose Stealth Fighter in monochrome without a joystick. Try playing a flight sim with the arrow keys, kids.

I bought probably 75 games while I owned that guy, all on 5in floppies. I still have every one, and most of the boxes. When I euthanized my 486 years ago I cut out the 5-in drive and put it in an anti-static bag just in case, someday. I don't even know if the rails or power plug would still work, but I still have it. Probably 50% or more of those floppies have de-magnetized by now, but I still have the manuals.

Configing DOS . . . The horror! Along the way a company named Quarterdeck came out with a utility program called QEMM (I think.) I paid about $40 for it. It configured the expanded and extended memory and wrote custom config.sys and autoexec.bat files for games, interpolating and tweaking to get the optimal mix. Many a Saturday I went to BestBuy, got a game, came home, and spent three or four hours trying to get that last 12k freed up so the sound would work. Try after try, batch file after batch file, until finally the game intro music burst forth in its tinny brilliance and those VESA graphics jumped out at you sitting surrounded by manuals, tools, and boot floppies. I like it better now, but there's not the same sense of big game hunter involved.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 11:00:32 PM

Nikademus

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Those 5.25 inch floppies were incredibly resilient. My Atari 8-bit floppies only started failing around year 2000. (nearly 20 years!)

So far all the 3.5in floppies for PC that i've tried are still functioning. Speaking of floppies.....while browsing for parts at the local computer recycle store/center, i was able to procure the last 5.25 floppy drive that they've received in a very long time. $10. Also picked up a couple blank floppies for giggles. My ex thought i was insane. She hadn't seen one since high school.

Installed it into my P4 machine under the 3.5inch drive. Hey...you never know!

My instructor runs a PC business and recently he had to be called in by ANOTHER guy who ran a PC business because his customer was still using 5.25 floppies to back up their server and needed to copy them to modern media. My instructor is one of the few or only service guys who still has a working 5.25in drive.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 11:14:36 PM

Bliztk

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I have one 5.25 and 3.5 inches drive stored in a box, just in case.

I started on Epyx Sub Battle Simulator, with an Amstrad 8086, with two floppies 5.25 and full CGA graphics !

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/11/2011 11:21:58 PM

Nikademus

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Amusement for the day:

You know your old when the young cashier at the computer store rings up your prize 5.25in floppy drive....looks at it and says....."Cool.......what is it?"

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/12/2011 3:50:37 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Those 5.25 inch floppies were incredibly resilient. My Atari 8-bit floppies only started failing around year 2000. (nearly 20 years!)

So far all the 3.5in floppies for PC that i've tried are still functioning. Speaking of floppies.....while browsing for parts at the local computer recycle store/center, i was able to procure the last 5.25 floppy drive that they've received in a very long time. $10. Also picked up a couple blank floppies for giggles. My ex thought i was insane. She hadn't seen one since high school.

Installed it into my P4 machine under the 3.5inch drive. Hey...you never know! My instructor runs a PC business and recently he had to be called in by ANOTHER guy who ran a PC business because his customer was still using 5.25 floppies to back up their server and needed to copy them to modern media. My instructor is one of the few or only service guys who still has a working 5.25in drive.

Yeah, as long as there are 3.5in controllers, the 5inchers ought to load. I figure if I get desperate enough I could ribbon a cable off to the side and run it external, breadboard-style. Might play havoc with the cooling scheme in the case, but sacrifices must be made.

I'm not touching that 5in drive for at least five more years. As you say, I might be able to make some coin off her.

I have a couple of boxes of gently used 5in discs too. Maybe I should put them in anti-static bags as well.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/12/2011 3:56:39 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

I have one 5.25 and 3.5 inches drive stored in a box, just in case.

I started on Epyx Sub Battle Simulator, with an Amstrad 8086, with two floppies 5.25 and full CGA graphics !

Ah, CGA. I haven't thought of that pile-up in decades. Was that purple color-thing about the ugliest color ever invented by Man? There was a CGA game in the mid-late 80s called "The Ancient Art of War" that took itself VERY seriously, but the CGA colors made it a laugh-fest. I really wish I had a copy. A fellow student brought it into the PC lab at B-school (before each student had their own computer you had to go to an arena and battle for a place, children"), and I about busted a gut laughing.

EGA was like a parting of the celestial clouds, angels singing backup. Nothing before or since was as stupefying as 16 colors after the desert of 4.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/12/2011 4:13:24 AM

Bullwinkle58

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OK, I just had to go look. Of course it's on an abandonware site. A whole 148k file--that's the whole game, folks. Here's a screen. If you've never played with or seen CGA graphics, get the barf bag ready before you look. For you old timers, just tense up and get through it!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/12/2011 4:48:06 AM >

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/19/2011 7:01:28 PM

wwengr

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Interesting discussion. One of the fundamental problems with the argument is that there is probably no objective definition or measure of what a Troll is. In some cases, it's easy to tell and there would be close to universal agreement (can't define it, but know it when we see it).

I have seen cases in this forum where someone shows up, they want to discuss something controversial or something that was hashed over a few years ago and they are instantly rebuked by the self-appointed forum gods. In cases like this who is the Troll? The one with the controversial topic or the self appointed forum god who emerges from his thread to issue the rebuke?

I have seen cases here where the forum gods have gone after a poster because his English shows that he is not a native speaker. I have also seen members get banned becuase they took the bait and gave an angry response to the troll.

Perhaps I am trolling with this post or just rambling pointlessly on... In the end, the best way to deal with the Troll is just to use the forum for what you want and ignore the Trolls. I choose not to use the green button, mostly becuase I am somewhat amused to the stupid and arrogant ramblings of the forum god trolls and get a chuckle when I see them.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/19/2011 7:53:54 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

OK, I just had to go look. Of course it's on an abandonware site. A whole 148k file--that's the whole game, folks. Here's a screen. If you've never played with or seen CGA graphics, get the barf bag ready before you look. For you old timers, just tense up and get through it!

Hmmm, it may not be a good thing...I think I owned that game at some point in the distant past...

I don't just feel old, I feel like a petrified old fossil.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/19/2011 8:53:58 PM

Rainer

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quote:

I have seen cases here where the forum gods have gone after a poster because his English shows that he is not a native speaker.

In all the years I am a member of this forum I have never seen anything like that.
On the contrary - whenever people show difficulties in expressing themselves because English is not their native language forum members - moderators or not - always showed a helpful and understanding attitude. Which I am most greateful for.

You have to prove your case or apologize to the moderators for a statement which I feel is an insult and unfair.

< Message edited by Rainer -- 3/19/2011 9:15:13 PM >

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/19/2011 10:49:23 PM

wwengr

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Just sort of rambling. Didn't mean to be controversial. My term "Forum Gods" does not refer to the moderators, but rather one or two or three posters with tens of thousands of posts that have at times taken it upon themselves to police people on the forum. I am refering to a couple of exchanges on the old WITP forum in which one poster was advised to improve his English if he wanted to be taken seriously.

A few years ago and probably should not have brought it up.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/19/2011 10:53:58 PM

Rainer

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I see (and remember).

Sorry to have been somewhat "pointed" but lately I have become a bit jittery about posters blaming developers and moderators for all the bad in the world (which you did not).
Hope you understand.

EDIT: Maybe I should note what I am after: I try to discourage people (posters) from discouraging the few developers left and drive them away. Don Bowen's retirement made me really nervous. I sincerely hope Joe Wilkerson -jwilkerson and Michael McFarland -michaelm will stay on board. If they also go ...

In case someone reads this just out of curiosity: the people mentioned above (and some more - Andy Mac for instance) do all they do for you - and they do it for free. They are not paid by anybody for what they do for you.
If you want to learn more about how it all came into being go here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2173764&mpage=1&key=?

< Message edited by Rainer -- 3/19/2011 11:07:38 PM >

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Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/19/2011 11:58:27 PM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Packard Hells--if that was your first big label I understand. Absolute donkey fazoo.

Oh man, that was my first comp. UGH.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/20/2011 12:47:11 AM

KenchiSulla

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There used to be a totalwars.net site for a game called Medieval Total War. It had forums, including a warzone and a selfproclaimed "King of the Warzone"...

People entered that part of the forum at their own risk and got spanked by "the King" everytime...

sometimes a troll is funny as hell........

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/20/2011 12:38:36 PM

Local Yokel

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QEMM! Wow, that's a blast from the past!

I was on the lookout for a translated record of Japan's wartime convoys, and found it as part of a mod. to one of the Silent Hunter series. As this piqued my interest in subsims again, I had a go at getting Silent Hunter 1 (only version I possess) working on my new box with 64-bit Windows 7. Using the DosBox emulator this worked like a charm.

Since I didn't even have Commanders's Edition of SH I now have to try to get all the Patrol Disk extensions added back, and the Maru tonnage randomiser.

Think it will be some time before I try my hand again at a manual FCS, but this old stager has me back on the edge of my seat as I hear those escorts' screws coming in for the counter-attack whilst I try to get below test depth.

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/20/2011 9:14:00 PM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

Interesting discussion. One of the fundamental problems with the argument is that there is probably no objective definition or measure of what a Troll is. In some cases, it's easy to tell and there would be close to universal agreement (can't define it, but know it when we see it).

I define a troll as someone with strongly held beliefs who comes to this forum with the sole intention of stirring the pot. These trolls typically have no genuine interest in the game but have enough knowledge to make them believe they are subject-matter experts. Some have never owned the game yet on they come. Unfortunately some newer players aren't familiar with these individuals and unwittingly feed them. The trolls may lay low for months at a time and then suddenly spring to life. A surefire method to ensure their arrival is to start a "which is better" debate. These controversial debates often center around the "Wildcat vs Zero", "Iowa vs Yamato" and other issues that players sometimes unintentionally start.

There was a time when I would engage these trolls and my appearance was certain to spin at least one troll out of control. This led to some very epic exchanges. I have since mellowed and have decided that there is no point. I'm not going to change their opinions and they aren't going to change mine so why bother.

Chez

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/20/2011 9:15:39 PM

Terminus

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You forgot "Tiger vs. Sherman".

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/20/2011 11:27:32 PM

mike scholl 1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You forgot "Tiger vs. Sherman".

Termi.., you Troll!

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RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/21/2011 1:33:54 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Interesting discussion. One of the fundamental problems with the argument is that there is probably no objective definition or measure of what a Troll is. In some cases, it's easy to tell and there would be close to universal agreement (can't define it, but know it when we see it).

I define a troll as someone with strongly held beliefs who comes to this forum with the sole intention of stirring the pot. These trolls typically have no genuine interest in the game but have enough knowledge to make them believe they are subject-matter experts. Some have never owned the game yet on they come. Unfortunately some newer players aren't familiar with these individuals and unwittingly feed them. The trolls may lay low for months at a time and then suddenly spring to life. A surefire method to ensure their arrival is to start a "which is better" debate. These controversial debates often center around the "Wildcat vs Zero", "Iowa vs Yamato" and other issues that players sometimes unintentionally start.

There was a time when I would engage these trolls and my appearance was certain to spin at least one troll out of control. This led to some very epic exchanges. I have since mellowed and have decided that there is no point. I'm not going to change their opinions and they aren't going to change mine so why bother.

Chez

As the saying goes, "don't argue with a fool, people might not be able to tell the difference."

Many moons ago I came across a website dedicated to the trolling phenomenon. It went into great detail about the different types of trolls and their motivations. I haven't seen it in years, but I recall it made the distinction between a conscious and unconscious troll. A conscious troll is a kid (or someone emotionally a kid) who takes joy in getting people all riled up. They join discussions with the conscious intent to cause trouble. These are the most straight forward species of troll.

The other types are unconscious trolls. These people don't have the conscious intent to cause trouble, but they do anyway. They may believe they just "speak the truth" and others may not like it, or they might be miserable and want others to wallow with them, or some other kind of unconscious motivation that makes them a pain in the backside for everyone around them.

I've seen both around here. There are those who "just want to make the game better", but won't shut up when told that what they want isn't possible without a major rewrite of the code, or just beyond the current capability of a Windows based computer. There are also people like you describe who don't own the game or don't really care about the game, but just want to stir up trouble.

I'm not talking about those who suggest something they'd like to see in the game and when explained to them why it won't happen go "oh well, it was just a thought" or something along those lines. Most of the players are not programmers and don't understand what is and isn't possible, so questions like that are OK. It's the people who won't take "it can't happen" for an answer.

An example from another place... I am an administrator for a mailing list that has been around for a long time (since 1993) and there has been a no HTML/formatted e-mail policy for some time because they screw up the digests. The server now strips out any formatting and makes messages plain text, but about 10 years ago it didn't, so we had to enforce it. One guy would go on and on about how he was waiting for some computer scientist to come up with a way to add fancy formatting with colors and such to plain text e-mails. I explained to him in some detail the nature of ASCII and what he was asking for was an oxymoron, but he would not shut up about it.

He also would complain at length about just about everything else in his life. He did have some serious physical problems, but everything was about how tough the world was on him. While I can have sympathy for his physical issues, being reminded of all the things in the world he had problems with on a daily basis got very old after a short while.

The conscious trolls can usually be dealt with by refusing to play their games. If you don't play the good victim, they will move on to someplace else where the trolling is better. The unconscious trolls are the toughest ones to deal with. Many times it takes a lot of effort to get them to see they are the problem.

Bill
Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 87

RE: Dealing with the Trolls - 3/22/2011 2:15:03 AM

Onime No Kyo

Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Some of my best gaming time was playing the original Microprose Stealth Fighter in monochrome without a joystick. Try playing a flight sim with the arrow keys, kids.

Hey, I started with Chuck Yeager's Air Combat.