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newb question - 3/19/2011 9:17:38 AM

thebigJA

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Joined: 3/19/2011
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Hi all. I thought playing Hearts of Iron 3 meant I was ready to try out a real wargame. Boy, was I wrong! This game is complicated! (I think the UI is clunky, too, but maybe you get used to it.)

I'm going through the "Newbie Tutorial AAR" by Sardaukar here. It's quite helpful, though he rather quickly starts breezing by things someone like me needs explained more (and I think he made a mistake in the settings at the beginning, since he talks later as if replacements were ON when he said to have them OFF). In it, he talks about setting all the P-40s In the US attached to restricted commands to be training squadrons thus:

"- set all fighter units that belong to restricted or permanently restricted commands to Training Escort 100%. We are going to use these units as training units, transferring pilots with exp 50 or more to General reserve. Set them to draw pilots from "Replacement", that ensured they will draw raw pilots with 30 exp from flight school and not experienced ones from General reserve (you need these in combat very soon). "

(Is there any way to bring up a list of all your different commands and what's attached to them? Clicking on all the airfields to make sure you don't miss a command is tedious.)

My problem lies with the second sentence. There's no way to transfer pilots from these squadrons to the General Reserve. In the Pilot Screen, you click the name to send them to Group Reserve, but then clicking it again sends them back to active. When I did this w/ a squadron in the Philippines, the 2nd click sent them to General Reserve (though they didn't appear there in the pilot screen, only on the Pilot Reserve list in the Intelligence screen. I presume it takes time?)

The only way to get a prompt to send the pilot to General Reserve is to put him in the Group Reserve, then got to "Request a veteran". If you click his name there under the "Group" section, it asks if you wat to send him to General Reserve. BUT! Hitting "Yes" sends him to TRACOM, not g. reserve (according to Intelligence screen). I'd thought TRACOM was for high exp pilots, but this happens with pilots of any level. (And why does clicking on a name in "request a veteran" ask you if you want to send to reserve, rather than to the squadron, if you sort by Group?) From what I can tell, it happens only in squadrons that are due to be withdrawn at some point. But how can I make these into training squadrons if I can't put anybody I train up in them into the General Reserve?

Sorry for the long question. One other, unrelated thing, the picture of ships moving in their info screen jumps up and down, as does, when a turn plays out, the combat window on the right. Is there a way to fix this? (I'm playing windowed and widescreen if that matters.)

Thanks. I really want to figure this game out, as it seems fascinating.

< Message edited by thebigJ_A -- 3/19/2011 9:28:35 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 9:24:18 AM

GreyJoy

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Hi mate, i'm a newb too so i cannot really answer your questions. However i think there is a button, in the upper left side of the map screen, where you can select all your air bases and order them in different ways, HQ attachment included.

But someone more expert will surely give some better asnwers.

Anyway this game is awesome...try to read the PZBvsAndyMac AAR in the aar section and you'll see the HUGE potential of this game...

(in reply to thebigJA)

Post #: 2

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 9:30:14 AM

thebigJA

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That's bases, not commands. And yeah, I see it has potential, but it's potential that's currently beyond my grasp!

Edit: I figured that bit out. You have to go in the list of ground units and find the HQ of the command. It's still not ideal, since you can't see at a glance everything under it, but it'll have to do.

You know what else would be really helpful? If there was a "Go to Province/Region/etc." button, like in Hearts of Iron, but I digress.

< Message edited by thebigJ_A -- 3/19/2011 9:42:38 AM >

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Post #: 3

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 9:41:04 AM

LoBaron

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From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigJ_A
My problem lies with the second sentence. There's no way to transfer pilots from these squadrons to the General Reserve. In the Pilot Screen, you click the name to send them to Group Reserve, but then clicking it again sends them back to active. When I did this w/ a squadron in the Philippines, the 2nd click sent them to General Reserve (though they didn't appear there in the pilot screen, only on the Pilot Reserve list in the Intelligence screen. I presume it takes time?)

Welcome thebigJ_A!

The interface is, sadly, old. The source code of this game prevents many enhancements on the GUI modern games enjoy, this is one of the things
we have to cope with.

Concerning your question: A squadron needs as many pilots as it has planes. If the # pilots = # planes you cannot send pilots to general reserve.
What you first have to do is pull new pilots in the squad (by using the "get pilot" button in the unit window - make sure you change the pool from "any" to "replacement").

E.g. you can overfill a 25 plane squad until it contains 33 pilots.

When you have done this you can send back trained pilots to general reserve exactly like you did.

Have fun and take your time on the learning curve.

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Post #: 4

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 9:44:56 AM

thebigJA

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Thanks, but no, that's not it. Even when the squadron has more than enough pilots it happens, and like I said it only seems to happen with squadrons that are due to be withdrawn.

(I appreciate the encouragement. I need it!)

< Message edited by thebigJ_A -- 3/19/2011 9:46:32 AM >

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Post #: 5

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 9:51:50 AM

LoBaron

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Ok I misunderstood your question:

If I remember correctly the withdrawal date is the deadline for the ability to pull out pilots but take this with a grain of salt.

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Post #: 6

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 10:12:05 AM

thebigJA

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Um. Sorry, I still don't think you understood. I know what the withdrawal date is. I'm talking about the very first turn here, so no withdrawal dates have passed. I realize my post was long. If you don't want to read the whole thing it's cool. I just can't summarize it any better than I already did.

< Message edited by thebigJ_A -- 3/19/2011 10:13:33 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 10:21:37 AM

Alfred

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thebigJ_A,

Read post 15 from this thread to help with understanding the relevant concepts.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2758239

1. The withdrawal date of a squadron does not affect how pilots are treated (with one exception addressed below). The date only has an impact if you fail to withdraw the unit by the indicated date; failure to do so incurs a daily loss of Political Points.

2. Any air unit can carry up to 33% more active pilots than its airframe TOE. Hence a 25 plane USA fighter unit can have up to 33 active pilots, an 18 plane USMC fighter unit can have up to 24 active pilots.

3. Air units often have historical pilots joining the unit some time down the track. If in the intervening period you have filled the pilot roster to 133% of TOE, the arrival of the historical pilots will balloon the pilot roster beyond 133% but then you will find the excess results in inactive pilots (pilots with delay = 1).

4. Units which are not scheduled for withdrawal can have all their pilots culled from the pilot roster and sent elsewhere.

5. Units which are scheduled for withdrawl cannot have their pilot roster reduced below their TOE. Hence if you have 33 active pilots in a unit scheduled for withdrawal, you can only cull until you are left with only 25 active pilots. If you wish to cull more pilots you have to import additional rookies to allow leeway to cull your "experienced" pilots.

6. Pilots are culled by clicking on the yellow "Pilot" located on the bottom left of the air unit screen. This takes you to the Pilot Roster screen. Active pilots are identified by their brighter grey colour and their delay = 0 (furthest right hand side column). Left clicking on an active pilot turns makes their delay = 1. Left clicking again sends the pilot to "General Reserve". Careful because if you right click the second time, you change the delay flag back to 0 and hence the pilot once again becomes active.

7. When you cull a pilot whose name is in yellow, you are given the option of sending the pilot to TRACOM rather than "General Reserve"

8. There are two manual routes to increase your pilot roster. Selecting "request a veteran pilot" is dealt with in post #15 of the thread I provided earlier. Note how I refer to how you can directly transfer inactive pilots from one squadron directly to another squadron, bypassing the "General Reserve". Selecting either "pilot request" button above the "request a veteran pilot" will draw a pilot from the pre selected pool. In the case of the tutorial AAR, Sardauker has recommended you preset the pool to draw from the "General Replacement" pool.

Alfred

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 8

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 10:41:42 AM

GreyJoy

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Very usefull infos Alfred! Thx

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Post #: 9

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 10:47:37 AM

LoBaron

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Good summary.

GJ, please welcome Alfred, our Wikipedia biological unit.

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RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 11:14:42 AM

thebigJA

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Thanks Alfred! I tested it out, and once I had one of these squadrons above 25, the 2nd click asked if I wanted to send to General Reserve like it's supposed to.

(When Sardaukar says to "- remember to populate air units with pilots, fill them up with "Get Pilot", set pilot draw to "Replacement" if you plan use one as training unit.", does that mean to fill them all to 25, or just until there's as many pilots as planes?)

It still doesn't explain why I can send the pilots to TRACOM by hitting YES to the "Send to General Reserve?" question in the Request Veteran screen, but since I'd have to go out of my way to do that, it shouldn't be an issue. Though, it does seem like it could be an exploit, allowing one to cull these squadrons (not that I'd do it.)

So, if I have 25 pilots in a squadron with, say, 20 aircraft, what are those extra pilots doing? I mean, if they act as replacements, then what is Group Reserve for?

< Message edited by thebigJ_A -- 3/19/2011 11:15:54 AM >

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Post #: 11

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 11:26:24 AM

thebigJA

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EDIT: accidental post

< Message edited by thebigJ_A -- 3/19/2011 11:28:51 AM >

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Post #: 12

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 11:56:15 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigJ_A

Thanks Alfred! I tested it out, and once I had one of these squadrons above 25, the 2nd click asked if I wanted to send to General Reserve like it's supposed to.

(When Sardaukar says to "- remember to populate air units with pilots, fill them up with "Get Pilot", set pilot draw to "Replacement" if you plan use one as training unit.", does that mean to fill them all to 25, or just until there's as many pilots as planes?)

It still doesn't explain why I can send the pilots to TRACOM by hitting YES to the "Send to General Reserve?" question in the Request Veteran screen, but since I'd have to go out of my way to do that, it shouldn't be an issue. Though, it does seem like it could be an exploit, allowing one to cull these squadrons (not that I'd do it.)

So, if I have 25 pilots in a squadron with, say, 20 aircraft, what are those extra pilots doing? I mean, if they act as replacements, then what is Group Reserve for?

You will forgive me if my answer is not directly on point because I haven't actually read Sardauker's AAR tutorial (and very good I am certain it must be).

What Sardauker is probably saying is to not waste the opportunity by leaving training places vacant. Always fill up your pilot roster to 133% of TOE. Whether a USA fighter unit with a TOE of 25 airframes has only 1 or 25 airframes on issue, the maximum number of active pilots who can be on the pilot roster is 33. Therefore continue to draw pilots until you hit 33 (or 24 pilots in the case of a 18 airframe USMC TOE, or 21 pilots in the case of a 16 airframe RAAF TOE).

"Group Reserve" is really just another term for pilots on the roster whose delay = 1.

Think of it this way. Assume we are talking about a USA fighter squadron issued with P-40E Warhawks. The TOE of the squadron is 25 airframes and lo and behold it has 25 airframes issued which are in a ready state plus 4 airframes in reserve. Its pilot roster lists 33 pilots, all with delay = 0, and therefore all pilots are considered to be "active". IOW, everything is at maximum utility levels.

In this example, although you have 33 "active" pilots on the roster, only a maximum of 25 pilots can sortie. In a practical sense, the excess 8 pilots could be viewed as being group reserve because the following day they can automatically replace (ie outside of player control) any of todays fliers whose fatigue level has reached 90. However, in the game these fresh pilots are not described as "group reserve" because that term is officially only applied to pilots on the squadron roster whose delay = 1.

The value of having such a formal definition of what constitutes a pilot being in "group reserve" is that it allows for the transfer, via the "request veteran pilot" button, pilots directly from one squadron to another, bypassing the intermediate move to "General Reserve" (again I draw your attention to the post identified in the thread I gave previously).

Alfred

(in reply to thebigJA)

Post #: 13

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 12:08:06 PM

thebigJA

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Ok, I get that. But then, what's the point of having both a Group and a General Reserve, if you can grab any pilot for a squadron from any Group Reserve? (Please forgive me if I ask stupid questions.)

If I have 33 pilots in a squadron that's training, will those extra pilots gain exp? Or will they only start to learn if one of the 25 active dies in an accident and they replace him?

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RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 12:35:58 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigJ_A

...(Is there any way to bring up a list of all your different commands and what's attached to them? Clicking on all the airfields to make sure you don't miss a command is tedious.)...

Ok, now that I think you have beent set onto the right course regarding pilot training/transfers, it's time to move onto the above extracted question from your original, rather long post.

There are two keyboard short cut keys which allow you to access all your on map air units. Press the "A" or "N" key and you are presented with a list of all your air units located on a land base or ship respectively.

Your air group list has many filters. You can filter nationality and by aircraft type. Hence you could arrange the filters to only display all USA medium bomber air units, or all Australian fighter units.

Together with the filters, the air group lists can also be sorted by various criteria eg. by currently assigned mission, or by morale level, or number of "active" pilots, or alpha/numerical airframe model/unit name plus several other sorts.

it is therefore possible to go to your global air unit list and quickly group together only those units training pilots and from there proceed directly to the unit to cull your "trained" pilots. Just remember the global list is divided up into two lists, "A" and "N".

Alfred

(in reply to thebigJA)

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RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 12:51:15 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigJ_A

Ok, I get that. But then, what's the point of having both a Group and a General Reserve, if you can grab any pilot for a squadron from any Group Reserve? (Please forgive me if I ask stupid questions.)

If I have 33 pilots in a squadron that's training, will those extra pilots gain exp? Or will they only start to learn if one of the 25 active dies in an accident and they replace him?

Hey, I didn't design the game, just trying to help out a newbie.

I do try to be exact in my language. I keep referring to "active" pilots, there is no difference between pilot #4 and pilot #31 on the pilot roster, provided they are both "active", ie delay = 0. If training is set to 100% level (as per Sardauker's AAR tutorial recommendation which you have adopted) then all "active" pilots attend class.

Those pilots I have regularly referred to as "inactive pilots", or termed by the game as "group reserve" (both terms referring to pilots on the air unit pilot roster with delay = 1) do not attend class.

Post graduation, to improve pilot experience or skills, one either attends class or engages in combat.

Alfred

(in reply to thebigJA)

Post #: 16

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 1:33:00 PM

thebigJA

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Oh, classes. See, I thought they were doing training flights or something. In which case it wouldn't make sense for guys w/o planes to get any better. Classes make more sense. Thanks, much obliged.

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RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 1:42:59 PM

thebigJA

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How very unfortunate. The "Newbie Tutorial AAR" rather rapidly stops being any such thing. Oh well. I'll just have to figure it out myself (with the help of nice people such as yourselves).

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Post #: 18

RE: newb question - 3/19/2011 6:24:46 PM

Sardaukar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigJ_A

How very unfortunate. The "Newbie Tutorial AAR" rather rapidly stops being any such thing. Oh well. I'll just have to figure it out myself (with the help of nice people such as yourselves).

It's not ment to be tutorial to game, but tutorial to Grand Campaign. Thus I generally skipped many parts that belong to game mechanics, because before trying GC, one should be familiar with them already.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

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RE: newb question - 3/20/2011 4:50:20 AM

thebigJA

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I meant no offense, I have learned quite a bit from it and am grateful. It's just that the title implies otherwise, and the comment where you explain that is on the second or third page. After all, how is a newbie to know what they should and should not be familiar with?

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RE: newb question - 3/20/2011 11:28:07 AM

Sardaukar

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Well..I thought that first line of my first post on that AAR would have cleared what that AAR was all about:

This AAR is meant to ease the new AE players into playing AE Grand Campaign vs IJ AI as Allies.

If one wants to leard game mechanics, it's more recommendable to try smaller scenarios first, like 1000 mile war or Coral Sea or Guadalcanal, before jumping to GC.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 3/20/2011 11:30:39 AM >

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

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RE: newb question - 3/20/2011 2:57:52 PM

erstad

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quote:

If one wants to leard game mechanics, it's more recommendable to try smaller scenarios first, like 1000 mile war or Coral Sea or Guadalcanal, before jumping to GC.

I would second (or it's probably third or fourth by now) starting with Coral Sea. You start with all of your TFs formed, relatively simple objectives, and limited space and time. That's a great way to start getting use to the game interface and concepts versus starting with a scenario or worse yet the GC where you look at a bunch of assets scattered in ports or bases across the map and have no idea what to do next. Try some AI games as both sides them maybe play a PBEM or two and then decide how far you want to jump next.

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Post #: 22

RE: newb question - 3/21/2011 3:13:43 AM

thebigJA

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Fair enough. I always have been the type to try and bite off more than I could chew.

I really wish they'd actually put the tutorial in the game. The way the interface works, a lot of the things that are going on are buried, or are happening behind the scenes. It feels like there's a wall between me and what's happening. It makes it hard to figure things out on my own. The manual doesn't seem great to me, either. I'll keep at it.

Thanks. Especially to you, Sardaukar. I didn't mean to let my frustration come across as a disparagement of the hard work you did on the tutorial.

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RE: newb question - 3/21/2011 7:58:52 AM

chrisol

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You might find the following thread helpful, containing links to various resources for newbies (such as the excellent video tutorials):

Useful info for Beginners thread

bw
Chris

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Post #: 24

RE: newb question - 3/21/2011 8:25:05 AM

Sardaukar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigJ_A

Fair enough. I always have been the type to try and bite off more than I could chew.

I really wish they'd actually put the tutorial in the game. The way the interface works, a lot of the things that are going on are buried, or are happening behind the scenes. It feels like there's a wall between me and what's happening. It makes it hard to figure things out on my own. The manual doesn't seem great to me, either. I'll keep at it.

Thanks. Especially to you, Sardaukar. I didn't mean to let my frustration come across as a disparagement of the hard work you did on the tutorial.

No problem, I just wanted to clarify why and to what purpose that AAR was written. It's not something I'd recommend reading first before starting to play, though.

This forum is full of helpful players and sooner or later (usually sooner) you will get your questions answered. And thread chrisol gave in previous post is good start to get some insight to game mechanics.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

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RE: newb question - 3/22/2011 5:14:17 AM

Capt Hornblower

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I have a quibble with the pilot training protocols. If the training routines haven't changed from Uncommon Valor, then squadrons used for training should NOT be overfilled with pilots. My recollection is that the TRAINING mission option for a squadron preferentially assigns the pilots with the lowest experience to fly training missions. Logically, if a squadron is overfilled under these conditions, the pilots with the highest experience (who should be the first to graduate to the desired experience level) will fly the least often and thus their increase in experience will be prolonged.

It seems to me that a better procedure is assigning as many pilots to a training squadron as there are aircraft, and then when a number of pilots have reached the desired experience, add pilots to the squadron to take the place of graduating pilots BEFORE transferring the latter pilots out of the unit.

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RE: newb question - 3/22/2011 5:17:44 AM

Alfred

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Except that in AE there is no correlation between airframes and training. A squadron with a TOE of 25 planes but with zero airframes on issue will still train all 25 (or 33 if overfilled) pilots. Think of it as class room training which does not require chalking up flying hours.

Alfred

(in reply to Capt Hornblower)

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RE: newb question - 3/22/2011 7:24:31 AM

Capt Hornblower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Except that in AE there is no correlation between airframes and training. A squadron with a TOE of 25 planes but with zero airframes on issue will still train all 25 (or 33 if overfilled) pilots. Think of it as class room training which does not require chalking up flying hours.

Alfred

Please excuse me, but are you sure? I am 3 days into a GC scenario, and in the squadrons I've designated to do TRAINING, the pilots with the least experience have done most of the skill improvement.

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Post #: 28

RE: newb question - 3/22/2011 7:48:51 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Except that in AE there is no correlation between airframes and training. A squadron with a TOE of 25 planes but with zero airframes on issue will still train all 25 (or 33 if overfilled) pilots. Think of it as class room training which does not require chalking up flying hours.

Alfred

Please excuse me, but are you sure? I am 3 days into a GC scenario, and in the squadrons I've designated to do TRAINING, the pilots with the least experience have done most of the skill improvement.

Yes, I am certain.

There is no correlation between airframes and training. Pilots without airframes will train.

The rate at which experience is gained in the class room is a different issue, but still unconnected with the presence or otherwise of airframes. Pilot experience will increase at a slower rate than pilot skills, and the more experienced a pilot is the slower will be his improvement.

If you are adding 8 pilots from the "Replacement Pool" to a 25 TOE USA fighter unit at the start of your GC, the rate of improvement will be greatest on the 8 rookies, but all 33 pilots (assuming you have the unit on 100% training) will attend the training class room if they are active pilots (see earlier posts). Whether or not you actually have 25 airframes will not be an issue.

The best way to increase the rate of improving is to:

1. Have the unit on 100% training
2. Concentrate on an appropriate skill, as increasing a skill will increase the odds of experience increasing
3. Undertaking "General Training" diffuses the training amongst the various skills and that will tend to slow down the experience gain rate.

The rate at which anything increases does tend to slow down once it reaches about 65. It is most definitely not unusual to have pilots go for days without improving. Whether the unit is overfilled with pilots or lacks airframes is not a consideration.

Alfred

(in reply to Capt Hornblower)

Post #: 29

RE: newb question - 3/22/2011 4:59:18 PM

foliveti

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I am pretty sure that the number of available aircraft does have an impact on training. I am playing as the allies and have a number of bomber squadrons equiped with only two aircraft. The training is painfully slow and it is starting at a really low level of training.

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Post #: 30