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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The fall of Scoodra

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RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/14/2011 7:28:53 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Forgive me if you already know this or if it's already been addressed at length, but atoll invesions are incredibly tricky. It's easy to get just about everything right, have one little oversight, and to see your overwhelming force defeated, stranded, and ultimately destroyed. So beware! Atoll invasions have to be done perfectly, and perfection is an awfully high standard. Here are some important considerations:

1. Stacking limits are critical. Know them and plan accordingly.

2. Do no exceed stacking limits unless you know exactly what you are doing and why. Exceeding stacking limits can drain your supply immediately, leaving your well-prepped, massive force without supply (and I mean ZERO supply) which means they fight at 1/4 strength if memory serves. This is a cataclysmic result. You will almost never recover from the initial shock attack failure. Your force - well organized with overwhelming force and total superiority at sea - will just die.

3. Bring lots of supply ships loaded only with supply. Make sure they go in during the morning phase of D-Day.

4. Make sure the troop transports go in duirng that morning phase.

5. Use as many troop transports for a single unit as possible - the more ships, the less troops per ship, the quicker you get all your guys on the beach. That means fewer debilitating shock attacks and more oomph on the first one.

6. If you're going to bombard, you might get your ships with range a day early and have your Kingfishers do recon to build up detection.

7. Bombardments are important, but they seldom seem to be as effective as you'd expect them to be.

8. Embed some DDs and a CA or BB in with your transports to soak up enemy CD fire.

9. Embed minesweepers.

10. Have ASW present.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 511

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 12:20:47 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Forgive me if you already know this or if it's already been addressed at length, but atoll invesions are incredibly tricky. It's easy to get just about everything right, have one little oversight, and to see your overwhelming force defeated, stranded, and ultimately destroyed. So beware! Atoll invasions have to be done perfectly, and perfection is an awfully high standard. Here are some important considerations:

1. Stacking limits are critical. Know them and plan accordingly.

2. Do no exceed stacking limits unless you know exactly what you are doing and why. Exceeding stacking limits can drain your supply immediately, leaving your well-prepped, massive force without supply (and I mean ZERO supply) which means they fight at 1/4 strength if memory serves. This is a cataclysmic result. You will almost never recover from the initial shock attack failure. Your force - well organized with overwhelming force and total superiority at sea - will just die.

3. Bring lots of supply ships loaded only with supply. Make sure they go in during the morning phase of D-Day.

4. Make sure the troop transports go in duirng that morning phase.

5. Use as many troop transports for a single unit as possible - the more ships, the less troops per ship, the quicker you get all your guys on the beach. That means fewer debilitating shock attacks and more oomph on the first one.

6. If you're going to bombard, you might get your ships with range a day early and have your Kingfishers do recon to build up detection.

7. Bombardments are important, but they seldom seem to be as effective as you'd expect them to be.

8. Embed some DDs and a CA or BB in with your transports to soak up enemy CD fire.

9. Embed minesweepers.

10. Have ASW present.

Don't be sorry CR...Repetita Adiuvant!!!

My real problem in assembling my invasion force now is that i don't have enough DDs!!...i'd like to make 5 different CVTFs but making the ideal single CV TF would mean to use all the DDs i have...and the DDs are too usefull for escorting the amph TFs, the bombardment TFs and the SCTFs...think i'll have to play smartly...keeping the single CVTFs very tiny and move the DDs between the different TFs during the different phases of the operation...

For what concerns the stacking limits...Tarawa has a limit of 30.000...so plenty of space to land almost everything i need.
Iwo isn't even an atoll so...

Ok guys, time for an update:

MAY 25th 1942

Bombay, after 6 days of harsh fightings, finally fell in front of 2500 overpowered japanese AVs. Now everything is ready for the final advance towards Karachi. 72 units are assembling at Surat, while more 35 are at Bombay. Seems that he wants to use Surat as the main starting base for his final advance...

In Luzon, Manila, out of supplies, is getting ready for the final japanese push...troops are assembling and i'm sure within the next 4/5 days he will begin the final attack.

In Oz arrived a US division and a african Bde. These troops will soon be moved to SUVA but for the meanwhile they'll rest and prepare at Sydney.

In NOPAC, after the conquest of Addak Island, we're now assembling engeneers and base forces there. Want to create an advanced fighting base, with subs, bombers and fighters.

we're ready to invade Baker Island...the next couple of turns will be decisive in order to decide how to move and which operation to chose.

Still no sign of the KB....

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 512

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 4:56:48 AM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

...My real problem in assembling my invasion force now is that i don't have enough DDs!!...i'd like to make 5 different CVTFs but making the ideal single CV TF would mean to use all the DDs i have...and the DDs are too usefull for escorting the amph TFs, the bombardment TFs and the SCTFs...think i'll have to play smartly...keeping the single CVTFs very tiny and move the DDs between the different TFs during the different phases of the operation...

Off all the sheer unadulterated piffle which has been presented as to why this or that can't be done, this claimed shortage of DDs is the last straw.

Notwithstanding the regular claim that AARs have been read to provide guidance, it is absolutely clear that nothing is learnt. To give just a recent example, the surprise expressed that a simultaneous paradrop + sea landing halves the defenders AV is inconsistent with the claim that AARs have been studied for this very same tactic was discussed in one of the AARs allegedly studied.

Nor is any attention paid to what is in the manual or often posted in the AE forum. Recently the claim is put forward that Iwo Jima is not an atoll. That fact can only be relevant in the context of believing that it means a landing there will not trigger an auto shock attack. So why is it that no one is prepared to clearly state to the Allied player, who has no idea how to play this game and always draws the wrong conclusions from the advice tendered by others, that due to its size, landing on Iwo Jima will trigger an auto shock attack.

So to get back to the claimed DD shortage. In post #432 you listed your major combat ships for this operation as:

5 CV
7 BB
13 CA
16 CL
45 DD
(note no numbers of escort ships were listed)

If there is a DD shortage then

tell us how large in your considered opinion is the DD shortage
how exactly have your determined what is the optimum number of DDs for this operation
what exactly is the role to be performed by the DDs which just cannot be undertaken by any other type of vessel
just when was the shortage discovered - after all you did have several weeks notice to plan the operation

When you have done that, you might care to enlighten us all what is meant by moving the DDs between the different TFs during the different operational phases. As you would have noted from your reading of AARs and the forum, players who intend to maximise the survivability of their invasion fleets tend to move everything together. If all the TFs are in the same hex, what exactly does "moving" the DDs accomplish? If you intend to string out across the wide expanse of the Pacific the TFs, will the DDs have sufficient fuel to be moved from one to another TF.

But do carry on, the schadenfreude is quite exquisite. No reason why this post should be received any better than my other posts.

Alfred

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 513

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 8:17:38 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Off all the sheer unadulterated piffle which has been presented as to why this or that can't be done, this claimed shortage of DDs is the last straw.

Notwithstanding the regular claim that AARs have been read to provide guidance, it is absolutely clear that nothing is learnt. To give just a recent example, the surprise expressed that a simultaneous paradrop + sea landing halves the defenders AV is inconsistent with the claim that AARs have been studied for this very same tactic was discussed in one of the AARs allegedly studied.

Hi Alfred,

first of all i have to admit that when i first read this post i got a little bit upset cause the overall tone was/is expressing kind of annoyance, like the tone of a Harward professor placed in a "learning support teacher" role. Then i re-read your post and went beyond the tone. I admit your points are, again, good ones.
I went back reading Q-Ball and CR's threads (think you're talking about that match here) but didn't find where they referred to the paradrop+sea landing that halves trhe defenders AVs...
However i must say in my defence that those are very long AARs and it's not easy to memorize everything you read...also because the time, the period you read does change what you learn and what you simply read. I probably read those AARs when i was looking for an overall strategy and didn't paid enough attention to details that, at that stage, were not in my mind of that importance.
If i had memorized half the things i've read in the last 3 months over this forum i'd be an expert...unfortuntaly i am not.

quote:

Nor is any attention paid to what is in the manual or often posted in the AE forum. Recently the claim is put forward that Iwo Jima is not an atoll. That fact can only be relevant in the context of believing that it means a landing there will not trigger an auto shock attack. So why is it that no one is prepared to clearly state to the Allied player, who has no idea how to play this game and always draws the wrong conclusions from the advice tendered by others, that due to its size, landing on Iwo Jima will trigger an auto shock attack.

Well, i remember there was a debate in Q-Ball's AAR about a landing at Scoodra and someone pointed out that even if it was not an atoll, the shock attack was mandatory...well Rader just showed me that that one was a wrong conclusion cause landing at Scoodra doesn't trigger a shock attack.

quote:

So to get back to the claimed DD shortage. In post #432 you listed your major combat ships for this operation as:

5 CV
7 BB
13 CA
16 CL
45 DD
(note no numbers of escort ships were listed)

If there is a DD shortage then

tell us how large in your considered opinion is the DD shortage

how exactly have your determined what is the optimum number of DDs for this operation

what exactly is the role to be performed by the DDs which just cannot be undertaken by any other type of vessel

just when was the shortage discovered - after all you did have several weeks notice to plan the operation

When you have done that, you might care to enlighten us all what is meant by moving the DDs between the different TFs during the different operational phases. As you would have noted from your reading of AARs and the forum, players who intend to maximise the survivability of their invasion fleets tend to move everything together. If all the TFs are in the same hex, what exactly does "moving" the DDs accomplish? If you intend to string out across the wide expanse of the Pacific the TFs, will the DDs have sufficient fuel to be moved from one to another TF.

Yes, you're right. I should have noticed it a lot earlier (not that this could have made the difference mind you). The fact that when i planned the operation at first i was just drawing on papaer which forces i had, not going into details about TF composition and such...yes, that's not very professional...i admit it...but i guess my ability to plan forward and to set up my mind for a logical analysis of all the variables is still at the state of a "process"...work in progress i'd say

Ok, my idea was to have a strong SCTF leading the invasion fleet. A 25 ships TF with at least 10 DDs. Then i wanted to have 5 single CV TFs, with 2 CAs, 2 CLs and 10 DDs each (for ASW purpouses)...recently i've read (jwilkinson i think said that) that the best way to face the coordination problems in 42 is to set up only single CV TFs... then i wanted at least 4 DDs for every of 3 Amph TF i was planning for the first wave...plus AMs and PCs...you u can see i'd need at least 100 DDs for this composition, that's why the shortage claim you mentioned.
Moving DDs between TFs means that i'll be forced to create 2 single very large amphibious TFs, with the SCTF embedded in them, in order to maximise the ASW role of the DDs. The CVs will be grouped in 2 CVs TFs for the same reasons.
This composition will be mantained for the travelling from PH to the combat theatre, where we'll re-group and re-form and the DDs will be concentrated in the TFs that will mostly need their help in that particular moment.
So to say, we advance towards Tarawa with that composition. When we arrive at 6 hexes from Tarawa, the DDs will be used for escorting the newly reformed amphi TFs and for the bombardment TF...CVs will rely mainly on supporting ASW ships (like KVs) and on their own air ASW capabilities at this stage.

quote:

But do carry on, the schadenfreude is quite exquisite. No reason why this post should be received any better than my other posts.

Alfred

What do you mean? I've always well received your previous posts and i've always thanked you for the patience and time spent teaching me. And, above all, i've always tried to learn and to get your suggestions...since the beginning. If you are disappointed because i'm not the best pupil one could hope for...well, i'm sorry, but i try and do what i can.
Sayin' that in this thread people are "schadenfreude-ing" implies that everybody is secretly laughing at my back and having fun watching me losing day after day a war that i cannot win. That's a bit unfair i'd say. Unfair in respect to all those people who have invested their time giving me suggestions and supporting my morale and also to me. In this "big picture" i actually seem like a clown who dances and got smashed in the back to make you laugh. Sad.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 514

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 8:37:28 AM

modrow

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline

GreyJoy,

I just logged in to try to give some personal opinion related to how to read Alfred's post. Now, your reply has just popped up, but I'll still write what I was planning to write.

Alfred really wants to help you. The fact that he takes the time to post in your thread shows that, and if you study his posts, you see that he is not really someone capable of giving excellent advice but also always willing to share his knowledge.

If his choice of words seems a bit on the harsh side, I would assume that this (including specifically the "Schadenfreude" part) is an attempt to get through to you, as he feels that previous advice seems not to have been considered adequately and wants to stir you into action (including study in order to improve the understanding of the mechanics of this game).

Just my 2cts.

Hartwig

edited for grammar

< Message edited by hartwig.modrow -- 5/15/2011 8:39:14 AM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 515

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 8:49:13 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow

GreyJoy,

I just logged in to try to give some personal opinion related to how to read Alfred's post. Now, your reply has just popped up, but I'll still write what I was planning to write.

Alfred really wants to help you. The fact that he takes the time to post in your thread shows that, and if you study his posts, you see that he is not really someone capable of giving excellent advice but also always willing to share his knowledge.

If his choice of words seems a bit on the harsh side, I would assume that this (including specifically the "Schadenfreude" part) is an attempt to get through to you, as he feels that previous advice seems not to have been considered adequately and wants to stir you into action (including study in order to improve the understanding of the mechanics of this game).

Just my 2cts.

Hartwig

edited for grammar

Thanks Hartwig.
I understand he wants to help and, as i said, he really does help me. Actually i agree he is right especially in the part when he says i should have noticed earlier and i should have studied more what i said i have studied and read.
I just don't understand the last sentence when he seems to imply that i didn't appreciate his previous posts. I did.

(in reply to modrow)

Post #: 516

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 9:53:12 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

May 26-27 1942

a 6 DDs TF moved at night in front of Karachi to interdict the flow of reinforcements from Aden. There was a small fight with an ASW TF of mine composed by 2 DDs. My destroyers fought well and managed to get away with a couple of hits taken and couple given... not a lot of damage on both sides. During the following morning my torpedo bombers took off but didn't score a single hit despite losing 2 planes against his AAA...seems that the DDs are really difficult to hit with aerial torp (which seems realistic due to the speed and mvr of that kind of ships),

Our Raider Bn managed to land at an empty Baker Island as planned. We've immediately sent in a small naval base force from Canton and 8 catalinas in order to see what's going on around Tarawa. My subs have engaged lots of PBs near Mili and Wotje...for sure he's reinforcing those islands!!
My Subs around Iwo have been suddenly chased down by 4 PBs...mmmm...we'll stay there to get a better detection level...but this new activity really puts me off...seems that Rader cannot be caught off guard.
i need more recon!!

At Attu atoll he got again a bloody nose

...despite my Bde there is being with 0 supplies for weeks now, despite 5 heavy BB bombardments that annihilated everything...despite the constant and daily level air bombing....the 45th indian Bde covered herself again with Glory, stopping back on the beach the second invasion...this time Rader came with 3 naval guard units, 1 SNLF and 1 eng rgt...result?...

Ground combat at Addu (16,52)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 2335 troops, 47 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 103

Defending force 4436 troops, 25 guns, 44 vehicles, Assault Value = 120

Japanese adjusted assault: 0

Allied adjusted defense: 345

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 99 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
     1814 casualties reported
        Squads: 82 destroyed, 29 disabled
        Non Combat: 34 destroyed, 21 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
     6 casualties reported
        Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
   44th Nav Gd /1
   Sasebo 8th SNLF /1
   43rd Nav Gd /2
   41st Nav Gd /2
   16th Engr Rgt /1

Defending units:
   45th Indian Brigade
   Addu RN Base Force

round combat at Addu (16,52)

---------------------------------

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 3063 troops, 45 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 67

Defending force 4353 troops, 25 guns, 44 vehicles, Assault Value = 114

Japanese adjusted assault: 9

Allied adjusted defense: 57

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 6 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
     1102 casualties reported
        Squads: 77 destroyed, 18 disabled
        Non Combat: 111 destroyed, 28 disabled
        Engineers: 1 destroyed, 8 disabled
     Guns lost 6 (2 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
     119 casualties reported
        Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled

Assaulting units:
   43rd Nav Gd /2
   41st Nav Gd /2
   Sasebo 8th SNLF /1
   44th Naval Guard Unit
   16th Engr Rgt /1

Defending units:
   45th Indian Brigade
   Addu RN Base Force

Rader will need to reinforce if he wants to take Addu!

more than 600 planes spotted at Surat and 120 units

...already AF level 6...Rader must have thousands of engeneers there...

It must be overstacked however...so we'll try to pay a visit there tomorrow...weather forecast says overcast in India...50 4Es are already warming their engines...i can efford some losses (got more than 70 4Es in the pool) ...and i need to keep Rader at bay...i fear he's thinking about starting to sweep my northern bases with all those fighters there...

the KB is still a ghost...

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 517

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 10:22:20 AM

Fishbed

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline

My Friend, if you're not ashore in a couple days, knowing that the KB was around India a week ago won't be of much help...

_____________________________

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 518

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 10:32:13 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

My Friend, if you're not ashore in a couple days, knowing that the KB was around India a week ago won't be of much help...

What do you mean Fishbed?
It's been almost 2 weeks now since i don't see the KB nor i have any sign of his presence anywhere...and i won't be ashore before 2 weeks at least... but i won't risk to move in force untill i know where the KB is...
Rader now has to pull the trigger and cross the LOD ...think it's a matter of days. If he crosses he must have the KB in the proximity...cause if the KB springs up in the pacific, then my 3 brit CVs could come and play a role at Karachi, thus keeping the Aden Channell open for the upcoming reinforcements... there's a strong correlation here...
AUT the KB is in India lurking in the shades waiting to pop up and close once for all the Aden Channell when Rader decides to pull the trigger and cross the LOD...and that means i have free hands in the pacific...

AUT the KB is in the Pacific and so my pacific operation will be put on hold BUT there is a strong chance of keeping India alive with the new reinforcements.

He simply cannot be everywhere

(in reply to Fishbed)

Post #: 519

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 11:45:28 AM

Fishbed

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline

Ho, ok. I thought the whole operation was built around taking advantage of KB sighting in the Indian Ocean while you were landing at the same time. Ok, no problem, finger on the trigger then :)

_____________________________

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 520

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 6:01:45 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

Cats are already based at Baker Island now. Starting from Tomorrow we'll have Tarawa in our range of recon and so soon we'll now what he has there.
Then we must know where the dreaded KB is. My guess? she's sailing somewhere approaching truk from northwest (maybe passing through the PI). i've sent all my pacific subs (except those who have been ordered to recon Iwo, Haha, Tarawa, Makin, Mili, Ocean, Nauru and Kwalajein) to create a first allert perimeter from Truk to the Mariannas in order to have a decent allarm timing of incoming threats.
The other option is that she's sailing between Diego and Scoodra, waiting for my RN CVs...but with no decent ports to refuel at that would be a real waste of fuel and she could have better spent her time sinking my transports that everyday exit and enter from the Aden Channell

(in reply to Fishbed)

Post #: 521

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 6:11:22 PM

Fishbed

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

The other option is that she's sailing between Diego and Scoodra, waiting for my RN CVs...but with no decent ports to refuel at that would be a real waste of fuel and she could have better spent her time sinking my transports that everyday exit and enter from the Aden Channell

Well I guess that he just needs baby KB for that. My take is that baby KB may be replenishing at Singers right now before a redeployment.

_____________________________

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 522

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/15/2011 6:18:52 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

The other option is that she's sailing between Diego and Scoodra, waiting for my RN CVs...but with no decent ports to refuel at that would be a real waste of fuel and she could have better spent her time sinking my transports that everyday exit and enter from the Aden Channell

Well I guess that he just needs baby KB for that. My take is that baby KB may be replenishing at Singers right now before a redeployment.

But is the baby KB enough to take care of 3 main brit CVs and 1 CVL? I mean, i know mini KB can defeat them, but won't it be too risky for him?
And the main KB, without the support of the mini KB rapresent a Death-Star for the US CVs or "simply" a stronger but affordable enemy?

(in reply to Fishbed)

Post #: 523

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/16/2011 8:42:55 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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May 28-29 1942

The raid at Surat went bad. Among those 120 units there must be some real Heavy FLAK! 5 4es were shot down by flak at 15k feet!!!...4 more were shot down by the CAP which was heavy and coordinated by a radar

. Overall 10 4Es were lost for a total of 16 enemy planes...not a good exchange as Nemo has previously pointed out.
Ok, lesson learnt: never go to an enemy base with too much flak! Even jap AA can be deadly if massed.

At Manila the japs made their first attack...and it was a bloody bath for them. 16k men dead/disabled against my 2300...but forts down to level 2. At least they'll need some time to reduce Manila...

The BBs came again at Addu Atoll...and they nuked the base. This time my men got badly disabled...won't last long.

The Japs did a strange move at Surat. They landed just at the other side of the bay at Bahungar...they could have simply march there cause the base was empty...

Maybe they want to create a mutual supporting double-base (with Surat) in order to start reducing my northern bases before pulling the trigger and cross the LOD...don't know.

Today was a good day cause from Aden, heavily escorted, arrived at Karachi an AKV bringing another group of 13 B-17s...and God knows how badly i need the american bombers in India!

Tarawa seems empty and empy seem Ocean, Mili and Makin...that sounds pretty strange to me

I'll order my subs to linger there few more days and in the meanwhile i'll order to my cats at Baker to start reconning (will send more cats to do naval search from Baker also).
Something strange happened at Baker. I sent a USN port det (B) to Baker with a fast transport... when it was loaded it was 100/100 and then, the next day, arrived at 45/45...seems like many men were lost during the process...but how? Baker was already in my hands and so no attrition from landing... strange!

Still no clue about where the KB is...i'm getting nervous. I cannot risk a major defeat right now...but at the same time the more i wait the more he has time to send reinforcements...what to do?

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 524

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/16/2011 1:55:54 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

an Indian view
30.05.1942

Attachment (1)

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 525

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/16/2011 2:00:37 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

The Japanese would "cross the line of death" if they marched by land from Surat to Bahungar. While Bahungar isn't "across the line," you do have to cross it to reach the hex. So, instead, the enemy invades and doesn't trigger any reinforcements. Now he can build that airfield to level nine if he wishes.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 5/16/2011 2:01:43 PM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 526

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/16/2011 2:19:06 PM

kfsgo

Posts: 446
Joined: 9/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The Japanese would "cross the line of death" if they marched by land from Surat to Bahungar. While Bahungar isn't "across the line," you do have to cross it to reach the hex. So, instead, the enemy invades and doesn't trigger any reinforcements. Now he can build that airfield to level nine if he wishes.

I gotta say, at least for me this whole campaign does highlight how profoundly silly having a fixed line for reinforcements makes things after the 'where' of it becomes common knowledge.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 527

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/16/2011 2:23:03 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Yes, but making it more nuanced would have taken alot of additional coding, I think. Not many games will reach this point, but at least everybody has a general idea of the consequences when it does. So while the "line of death" isn't particularly nuanced it does add a good bit of excitement.

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Post #: 528

RE: The fall of Scoodra - 5/16/2011 2:39:36 PM

GreyJoy

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Thx CR, makes lot of sense now.
I'm pretty sure he will build that AF and, along with Surat he will soon start to reduce my bases with air power before triggering the LOD. And that may mean it will take him more weeks to advance...that's not exactly what i would have done if i was him but, unluckly, i'm pretty confident Rader does know what he does

better than me.

Tomorrow we'll try to attack Surat with a base force so that we'll be able to know which forces he has massed for the upcoming campaign. We also have to consider that at Bombay there were more 2500 AVs 4 days ago and that at Manila 2600 AVs are reducing the allied base. I'm also sure that more units are moving by sea towards Calcutta (intel reports) so the numbers we'll watch at Surat are gonna be just a fraction of the total...(more 1000 AVs, including lots of tanks, are closing on Madras right now)...but we're gonna get an Idea...my guess? something like 12.000 AVs...

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 529

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 5:05:01 PM

Fishbed

Posts: 1822
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From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
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I didn't quite understand - he can walk all the way to Karachi and never trigger the exceptional reinforcements? Isn't that a little bit edgy?

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Post #: 530

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 6:17:43 PM

GreyJoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

I didn't quite understand - he can walk all the way to Karachi and never trigger the exceptional reinforcements? Isn't that a little bit edgy?

What??? Oh lord...no, i don't think so...well i HOPE it's not like that...
As far as i understand if he passes the line of Ahmebadab the reinforcements are triggered!

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Post #: 531

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 7:06:13 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

I didn't quite understand - he can walk all the way to Karachi and never trigger the exceptional reinforcements? Isn't that a little bit edgy?

What??? Oh lord...no, i don't think so...well i HOPE it's not like that...
As far as i understand if he passes the line of Ahmebadab the reinforcements are triggered!

It's based on the y in the x,y line running, I believe, one hex south of Delhi. The map projection bends quite a bit in some places, so check the x,y. This is particularly critical in Australia, which is sway-backed in the game due to the map projection.

Aside: Could you post the two VP totals when you have a chance?

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Post #: 532

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 7:41:36 PM

GreyJoy

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Here you are Bullwinkle.

The y is the 18...and it runs from Ahdemabad to 1 hex south of Dehli...

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 533

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 7:45:21 PM

Bullwinkle58

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Thanks.

PPs kinda hurtin' there. I don't know how AE works or if it's in the manual (can't check now), but I think WITP let PPs go negative. Might be an option to keep your air groups.

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Post #: 534

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 7:50:02 PM

GreyJoy

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Yes, i'll try that BW. I'll keep my fighters and withdraw only the bomber groups (not the hudsons however cause they are great in ASW due to their radar). PP is going to hurt...but cannot let those hurricanes go back right now

we're getting close to 4-1 VPs...well, for the moment i'm not thinking about them....

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Post #: 535

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 7:58:46 PM

Canoerebel

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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Just to clarify for Fishbed and any others who are (understandably) confused by the Line of Death conversation. It can be confusing, though it really isn't once you understand it...

The line of death travels east/west on the game map - one hex south of Delhi, which means it includes the city of Ahmadebad. If any enemy troops march by land onto or across that line it triggers the reinforcements. The same thing happens if an enemy invasion force lands on or across that line of hexes.

Due to how the shoreline bends, there is a peninsula in India that crosses back south of the line (south on the game map). So enemy troops that invade the base at the southern tip of that hex are not across the line and thus don't trigger reinforcements. But the only way you can reach that base by land is by crossing the line.

Aint it clear?!

This little feature of the game has created a wonderful amount of confusion, study, analysis, and conclusions, making it alot of fun.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 5/16/2011 8:01:41 PM >

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Post #: 536

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 8:10:18 PM

GreyJoy

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Strange enough Scoodra doesn't trigger the LOD despite being northwards of Dehli.

However guys, think i'll be the first one who will experiment the reinforcement trigger and a siege of Karachi...

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Post #: 537

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 8:46:33 PM

paullus99

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Not the first - believe we've run into that particular scenario a time or two before, particularly in WiTP.

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Post #: 538

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 10:40:32 PM

GreyJoy

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Ok, that's what we can call LOGISTIC!!!.... uncountable base forces, engeneers and AA units at SURAT!!....Oh God...

Ground combat at Surat (39,20)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 715 troops, 12 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 9

Defending force 148434 troops, 2238 guns, 1326 vehicles, Assault Value = 3649

Allied adjusted assault: 0

Japanese adjusted defense: 1711

Allied assault odds: 1 to 99 (fort level 1)

Combat modifiers
Defender: preparation(-)
Attacker: leaders(-), supply(-)

Allied ground losses:
268 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 46 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
2nd West Coast Base Force

Defending units:
5th Division
48th Recon Regiment
55th Engineer Regiment
16th Guards Regiment
56th Recon Regiment
4th Division
48th Engineer Regiment
23rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
19th Ind. Engineer Regiment
15th Guards Regiment
6th Guards Division
5th Guards Engineer Regiment
20th Ind. Engineer Regiment
21st Division
143rd Infantry Regiment
56th Engineer Regiment
33rd Division
144th Infantry Regiment
4th Ind.Mixed Regiment
5th Guards Cav Regiment
17th Indpt Guards Regiment
33rd Infantry Regiment
15th Ind. Engr Rgt /2
34th Const Co
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion
11th JAAF Base Force
11th Air Defense AA Regiment
45th Ind.AA Gun Co
26th Fld AA Gun Co
36th Const Co
12th Air Defense AA Regiment
41st Air Defense AA Battalion
9th RF Gun Battalion
35th Fld AA Gun Co
17th JAAF AF Bn
2nd Air Division
20th AA Regiment
47th Road Const Co
55th Mountain Gun Regiment
28th Fld AA Gun Co
30th JNAF AF Unit
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
49th Const Co
31st Road Const Co
6th JNAF AF Unit
27th JAAF AF Bn
25th JNAF AF Unit
39th Field AA Battalion
22nd Ind.AA Gun Co
14th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
25th Army
5th RF Gun Battalion
12th JAAF Base Force
23rd Ind.AA Gun Co
3rd Mortar Battalion
1st Ind.AA Gun Co
56th Const Co
42nd Air Defense AA Regiment
3rd Ind.AA Gun Co
8th RF Gun Battalion
55th Const Co
51st Const Co
8th Field AF Construction Battalion
21st Air Defense AA Regiment
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
35th Const Co
35th Field AA Battalion
29th Fld AA Gun Co
23rd AA Regiment
41st Field AA Battalion
36th Const Co
38th Field AA Battalion
21st JAAF AF Bn
40th Const Co
27th Fld AA Gun Co
31st Fld AA Gun Co
49th Field AA Battalion
43rd Ind.AA Gun Co
57th Field AA Battalion
25th Air Defense AA Regiment
30th Fld AA Gun Co
Southern Army
7th RF Gun Battalion
32nd Field AA Battalion
53rd Field AA Battalion
13th JAAF AF Bn
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th RF Gun Battalion
5th Field AF Construction Battalion
43rd Const Co
13th Ind.AA Gun Co
18th JAAF AF Bn
48th Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
52nd Const Co
38th Road Const Co
1st Air Defense AA Regiment
41st Ind.AA Gun Co
35th JAAF AF Bn
54th Const Co
9th Field AF Construction Battalion
6th Field AF Construction Battalion
20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion
44th Ind.AA Gun Co
54th Field AA Battalion
69th JAAF AF Bn
201st JAAF AF Bn
3rd FF Const Unit
48th Road Const Co
5th Mortar Battalion
15th Const Co
21th JNAF AF Unit
11th JNAF AF Unit
34th Ind.AA Gun Co
22nd Air Flotilla
92nd JAAF AF Bn
41st JAAF AF Bn
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
48th Field AA Battalion
12th Ind. AA Battalion
56th Field Artillery Regiment
2nd RF Gun Battalion
31st Air Defense AA Battalion
37th Const Co
4th Naval Construction Battalion
22nd Fld AA Gun Co
53rd Const Co
56th Field AA Battalion
34th Field AA Battalion
21st Ind.AA Gun Co
1st Air Defense AA Battalion
21st Fld AA Gun Co
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
42nd Ind.AA Gun Co
39th Road Const Co
21st Army

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Post #: 539

RE: The door of India is open - 5/16/2011 10:46:23 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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LOL

I count five divisions, so certainly he can have many more than that on the loose in India.

But those titanic stacks 65 units tall are comprised heavily of non-combat units. At least you learned that much.

I may be biased in favor of GreyJoy given his newness to the game, but shouldn't rader be a bit embarrassed to have 38 AA units in a single hex? I mean, isn't it time we formed a kangaroo court and levied a few fines?

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 540