Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

Reek, you do know you can convert certain AKs to AP and then APA, correct? It isn't too late to convery some AP to APA and so forth. You will need them....and can't LST also carry infantry and land them effectively? Don't you have a surfeit of LCI and LSM? All these can carry and land infantry effectively (I think).

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

rough calc is 3 APA + 1 AKA per regiment. LSTs don't carry troops at all, use them for ARM & ART LCUs.

1st big hurdle in Amph ops is AmphTF composition, they can be up to 100 ships! it's v. important to have cruisers and DDs included, to suppress enemy defensive fire, but as these ships expend their hvy-gun ammo, you must cycle in add'l shooters for suppression. w/ 2-day turns, you'll need a greater amnt of shooters initially, since you can't cycle every turn. if you have sufficient DEs, consider using them in the accompanying CVE & ASW TFs.

always turn on 'do not load fuel', transports & LSTs w/ fuel on board burn really well. loading for Amph is a prob - the screens don't show the 20% load-penalty for combat-loading, you've got to do some pencil-calcs on your own. even when i do this correctly, sometimes a significant proportion of a large LCU won't be loaded - usually the 'support' elements. you'll be wanting to bring along generous amnts of supply, too. So for pencil-calcs, look at each LCU's troop/cargo load-sizes, & multiply them by at least 1.25 (for minimum needed) but mebbe more like 1.4 or 1.5 (to include lotsa supply) to get that LCU's amph-load req'ment.

iirc you said you have a ForceHQ, but don't have an AGC? i'm pert sure that a ForceHQ won't help unless it's loaded on an AGC that's part of the AmphTF. CVE TFs can accompany the AmphTF into the target hex, they won't take the shallow-hex air-ops penalty.

Going against the 1000-Islands target, i'd assume you'll want to get in, unload, & get your ships out as fast as possible - in this case go for min supply load, & plan on a quick follow-up TF w/ add'l supplies ASAP. for these TFs, think about Mission Speed to a hex adjacent to the target, way-pointed to arrive on the 2nd day of your 2-day turn. then in orders for D-day, switch to full-speed to maximize unloading time during the next night turn.

your assault on 1000 is a hvy tac prob - it doesn't look like you'll be faced w/ subs, but BB/CA TFs will react, & presumably multiple IJN MTB flotillas are available at the push of a button. so i'd advise you forgo pre-landing BBTF bombardments on D-day, keep your bigboys available to defend the AmphTF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

For those more experienced than me in Allied Amphib operations, how much Naval Support to you bring along in an invasion like GJ is proposing?? Is an USN BF with 100 Naval Support helpful in speeding up the unloading process?? If not a BF, how about those little Port Services units??

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

For those more experienced than me in Allied Amphib operations, how much Naval Support to you bring along in an invasion like GJ is proposing?? Is an USN BF with 100 Naval Support helpful in speeding up the unloading process?? If not a BF, how about those little Port Services units??

GJ - I would look to form one of your CV TF with mostly BBs to soak up any torpedo strikes. The AI will direct Rader's naval attacks towards those BBs which you can afford to be damaged than your precious CVs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

rough calc is 3 APA + 1 AKA per regiment. LSTs don't carry troops at all, use them for ARM & ART LCUs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

rough calc is 3 APA + 1 AKA per regiment. LSTs don't carry troops at all, use them for ARM & ART LCUs.

Nope, LSTs do carry troops, just not as many. Try it. I just shuttled two infantry brigades in India using LST only. Five LSTs took about two trips per brigade but they carried everybody and all equipment. Can't recall if they were set on amphib or landing craft but it works. Nice quick unload too. Can't believe it took me this long to find out..

GJ, I have not had to try it but it is my understanding that you will want to mix half APA, AKA ships with xAP and xAK types as the APA and AKA will help the others unload faster and allow them to unload heavy equipment. I think this works with any ship that is suppose to have it's own landing craft. So not LSTs or LCIs but I am not sure. Can someone else confirm that this works. I have never done it so it is best to hear this from somebody who knows for sure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

rough calc is 3 APA + 1 AKA per regiment. LSTs don't carry troops at all, use them for ARM & ART LCUs.

Nope, LSTs do carry troops, just not as many. Try it. I just shuttled two infantry brigades in India using LST only. Five LSTs took about two trips per brigade but they carried everybody and all equipment. Can't recall if they were set on amphib or landing craft but it works. Nice quick unload too. Can't believe it took me this long to find out..

GJ, I have not had to try it but it is my understanding that you will want to mix half APA, AKA ships with xAP and xAK types as the APA and AKA will help the others unload faster and allow them to unload heavy equipment. I think this works with any ship that is suppose to have it's own landing craft. So not LSTs or LCIs but I am not sure. Can someone else confirm that this works. I have never done it so it is best to hear this from somebody who knows for sure.

Thanks Crsutton. I was thinking about creating a big APA/AKA TF loading 2 divisions completely. Then creating another Amphibious TF only with xAPs and AKs and load 2 more Divisions. Then another one made by LSTs and LCI loading Artillery, HQs and tanks. When these 3 TFs are loaded i was plannning to melt them togheder in a single 100 Ships TF, followed by a TF composed only of xAKs loaded with 100,000 supplies only. Another TF composed of empty barges will be moving too. In my mind the APA/AKA should unload first and then help, along with the empty barges, the slower unloading ships....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.

I've read Michealm saying that APA/AKA, once completely unloaded, will help other slower ship to unload if in the same TF, thus rapresenting the help given by the APA's landing crafts to other ships which don't have them.
However, i'll follow your pattern and see how it goes.
Here at Thousands, anyway, my main concern will be his surface and air assets. If he manages to penetrate my shield of BB/CA/CLs....it is going to be bloody...something like a Leyte Gulf battle...

LST so? luckly i have enough of them... I'm planning to bring with me 2 armoured BNs and a tank destroyer BN...i should have enough LSTs for the three of them

Thanks Nemo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Nope, never xAPs or xAks for an atoll. But one of the developers did say in a thread that the landing craft ships will help them unload faster. (Can't recall which ships but AKA and APA had the type of landing craft that could off load any neighboring ship whereas LST and LCI are ships in themselves and would not be much use for this.) Just have never tried it myself. But would never consider it for an atoll due to the shock attacks. Everything must go ashore the first day. GJ is in a pickle due to heavy losses and is going to have to try this out sooner or later.

LST is the Allies' wonder weapon. It is why Allies can build up and support 0 port bases all over the map. LCT is pretty helpful too. Something very difficult for the Japanese player to pull off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

APAs helping other ships unload? I've never seen this actually happen. Mixing APAs and AKAs with xAPs and xAKs is a recipe for disaster vs an atoll.

Don't learn bad habits. Here's my advice:
1. Load 1 division on xAPs and xAKs.
2. Load 1 division on APAs and AKAs.
3. Load 1 division on LSTs + load ALL your armoured units ONLY on LSTs

4. Have them all attack the same island. After 1 day check how much has unloaded from each of the ship types.

5. Fall in love wth LSTs as you realise how quickly they unload the armoured units ( and the infantry too ) and swear never to load your armoure on anything else ever again if you have a choice.

6. See the difference between your APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Note how much your APAs and AKAs unloaded in a single turn. Note this figure down for APAs and AKAs and xAPs and xAKs. Reduce this by 20%. Whatever this figure is is the MAXIMUM amount of troops and non-supply cargo you EVER want on an APA or AKA when invading an atoll. Go over this figure and you may well find yourself shock attacing for two days and destroying divisions needlessly.


Obviously feel free to do it differently but at the very least do the 6th step with your APAs, AKAs, xAPs and xAKs so you can use this test run to prepare for atolls also.

I've read Michealm saying that APA/AKA, once completely unloaded, will help other slower ship to unload if in the same TF, thus rapresenting the help given by the APA's landing crafts to other ships which don't have them.
However, i'll follow your pattern and see how it goes.
Here at Thousands, anyway, my main concern will be his surface and air assets. If he manages to penetrate my shield of BB/CA/CLs....it is going to be bloody...something like a Leyte Gulf battle...

LST so? luckly i have enough of them... I'm planning to bring with me 2 armoured BNs and a tank destroyer BN...i should have enough LSTs for the three of them

Thanks Nemo

quote:

6.3.3.3.2 AMPHIBIOUS UNLOADING
The Amphibious Unload Rate bonus applies only to ships in an Amphibious TF. Amphibious
Unload rates are determined by ship type (i.e., beaching craft, amphibious ship types,
or ordinary transport/cargo ship types). There are no Port-derived cargo handling limits.
Amphibious Unload only applies to Troops and Cargo (equipment and supply). Amphibious
Unload does not apply to Fuel, Oil or Resources. Note that there is also an “initial operations”
bonus for the Japanese during the first 4 months of the war.

Amphibious Unload may be used in two situations: an assault unloads over the beach, and
amphibious unload in a small friendly port. Amphibious Unload Rate bonuses differ for the two
situations.

6.3.3.3.2.1 OVER THE BEACH
This is for assault unloading over the beach.

» Beaching Craft. Beaching craft unload completely in one turn.

» Attack Amphibious Ships. (APA/AKA plus LSD, LSV and British equivalents)
in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 3000 points per ship, per turn.

» Regular Transport Ships. (Commissioned Naval AP/AK) in Amphibious
TFs, unload at a Rate of 600 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. (xAP/xAK) in Amphibious TFs, unload
at a Rate of 250 points per ship per turn.

» Special Japanese early war bonus of 1200 for all AP/AK and xAP/xAK types.

6.3.3.3.2.2 FRIENDLY PORT
For Amphibious docked at and unloading in a friendly port of Size 4 or less, the unload rate is
slightly different for Troops and Cargo.

» Beaching Craft. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Attack Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Regular Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 300 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. Troops unload at a Rate of 125 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn.

Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port
size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with
attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Notice the unload rates for the various kinds of ships! BTW, IIRC "per turn" in this section means "per phase" there being two phases each turn. Somebody sing out if I have that wrong.

After the turn of landing, which has a mandatory shock attack, remember to turn off that shock attack on all units or you will gut them as Nemo noted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Obviously all my plans could be destroyed by Rader sinking my transport fleet or savaging her while unloading... will be a landing in hostile waters with an enemy at full strenght and full attention....will be damned risky! Will probably be stupid....will surely be glorious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Notice the unload rates for the various kinds of ships! BTW, IIRC "per turn" in this section means "per phase" there being two phases each turn. Somebody sing out if I have that wrong.

After the turn of landing, which has a mandatory shock attack, remember to turn off that shock attack on all units or you will gut them as Nemo noted.

What constitutes a point ? I am assuming it is the load cost of the device - load cost 6 = 6 points to unload. Is that correct ? What about supply ? Is 1 unit of supply = 1 point ?

Xargun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

GJ:

The picture below illistrates a landing of a RAF BF on a friendly unoccupied base [Akyab] using 8xAP's and 1 xAK. At D-Day + 1 I have about 1900 troops and some supplies ashore. My calculations tell me that about 250 units[troop/cargo/supplies] per day per ship have been landed not per phase. The other observation is that when supplies and troops are combined on the same boat they are off loaded rather equally. Telling me .. no supplies on the troop boats and have extra boats to land supplies. [Here I do not care since the hex is mine and empty]. Also you can see the advice Nemo had about heavy equipment. None of that is on the ground yet.

This is a friendly hex .. I could imagine the effects of that intial "surf penality" that seems to be a random number up to %10 influenced by variables that I will leave to the experts in this thread. But I am thinking a 10% pad on top of what is needed to ensure 2:1 adjusted AV.

Main point: In my limited experience I would calculate the number as per day and load the AmphibTF accordingly to achieve maximum AV required to allow the landing to stick.

quote:

6.3.3.3.2.2 FRIENDLY PORT
For Amphibious docked at and unloading in a friendly port of Size 4 or less, the unload rate is
slightly different for Troops and Cargo.

» Beaching Craft. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Attack Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.

» Regular Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 300 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn.

» Merchant Ships. Troops unload at a Rate of 125 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn.

Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port
size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with
attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Perhaps we can ask an AI player (they are useful after all ) to run a test with a pure AKA, APA force, mixed, and then a force with none.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Perhaps we can ask an AI player (they are useful after all ) to run a test with a pure AKA, APA force, mixed, and then a force with none.

Personally I wouldn't bother because I can't see relying on that for an assault landing. It could help with unloading the garrison and support troops after base is captured.

BTW, IIRC (big emphasis on IF) the APA/AKA do not need to be in the same TF as the ships they are helping unload.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


Grayjoy, dont forget to have a plan B, just in case he manages to hold you on the beaches. Reinforce, Retreat,whatever. Dont do a Rader and not know what to do when it goes pearshape.

PS. Do you still have some Paras and transports in the area??

Maybe a paradrop on Ontong Java, assuming its empty, the day before might get him reacting that way and give you an extra dyas grace?