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RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 10:17:58 AM

Thomm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HintJ

I was planning on just hand painting the elevations, but I may ask for some help if it doesn't work right.

I am not familiar with the PC:O editor, but from what I gained by reading the various posts it should be entirely possible to transfer both elevation data *and* terrain type (including grass, mud, even trees) from CC to PC:O, perhaps with only a few hours of programming.

Did I understand correctly that you can import your own terrain texture (for the whole map) in PC:O?? If that is the case, one could make very faithful reconstructions of CC maps in PC:O, indeed.

Best regards,
Thomm

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Post #: 31

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 11:16:44 AM

HintJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomm

quote:

ORIGINAL: HintJ

I was planning on just hand painting the elevations, but I may ask for some help if it doesn't work right.

I am not familiar with the PC:O editor, but from what I gained by reading the various posts it should be entirely possible to transfer both elevation data *and* terrain type (including grass, mud, even trees) from CC to PC:O, perhaps with only a few hours of programming.

Did I understand correctly that you can import your own terrain texture (for the whole map) in PC:O?? If that is the case, one could make very faithful reconstructions of CC maps in PC:O, indeed.

Best regards,
Thomm

Well, I'm not familiar w/the editor either, but from my understanding of the tutorial and what Rick said, once you complete the ground terrain texture, the editor combines all the different ground textures into a single .dds file, and that can be hand edited. Theoretically, a designer could just hand paint the whole map, and import a single texture into the editor. I don't see why I couldn't just directly copy a CC map over the .dds file created by the map maker.

There will be, I'm sure, some problems w/CC maps. The scale, for example: In CC3 none of the maps are an exact 500 square meters, leading to stretching/squashing issues. Also, the resolution would create a very bizarre pixelated view close to ground level.

One possible solution for the would be to make the CC maps 1000^2 Km. This would help w/the pixelations caused by smashing the pixels into 500^2, but the map features would be around 2 times bigger.

Whatever option is chosen, if the elevation data is also imported, it would have to be somehow stretched or compressed at the same rate.

Of course, all of this is conjecture w/out having the map maker yet. For example, I know that in the terrain data (whether a point on the map is a road or forest) is at a 1 meter = 1 pixel scale, but I don't know if this applies also directly to the textures themselves. This point is critical in whether a CC map looks attractive enough to import directly or whether a translated CC map done w/textures taken directly from CC will look better than a map simply imported.

This is something I'm definitely going to experiment w/when the game comes out.

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Post #: 32

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 11:27:20 AM

HintJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Got it. May be this weekend.

Actually J2D, I would hold off on that for now, but go ahead and try if you want to and you have the time. The thing is, I'm still experimenting w/the best way to capture the screen. I'm sort of reaching in the dark w/out a copy of the map maker.

Let me ask you this though: Is the final .dds texture file created by the map maker a 1 pixel per meter, like the terrain data, or could I create better resolution map by chopping it up and pasting various textures?

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Post #: 33

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 12:30:26 PM

Thomm

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So, I re-read the editor threads, or at least some of them.

Conclusion:

The terrain bitmap that makes CC so pretty is of little use, because it cannot be displayed directly in PC:O.

BUT:

Both the terrain elevation data and the terrain tile type data can be very easily converted into bitmaps (I should have code ready for this) that can be re-imported into the PC:O map editor.

And since the resolution of PC:O (1 m) is twice that of CC (2 m) the conversion should be quite successful.

Best regards,
Thomm

(in reply to HintJ)

Post #: 34

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 2:46:52 PM

Mad Russian

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You can capture the screen anyway you like. When you're done all you have to do is resize your file to fit the size of the map you're making. If you need any adjustments after that you can use editing software to touch up the file.

I let MM create a terrain map but I generally go in and change every pixel to suit myself. Your picture/photo/topo map can be the end result or the starting place for your map.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 35

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 3:58:24 PM

rickier65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HintJ

........ For example, I know that in the terrain data (whether a point on the map is a road or forest) is at a 1 meter = 1 pixel scale, but I don't know if this applies also directly to the textures themselves. This point is critical in whether a CC map looks attractive enough to import directly or whether a translated CC map done w/textures taken directly from CC will look better than a map simply imported.
...

Actually, the final texture dds (called a megatexture) is not a 1:1 scale. (I think Map Maker creates this at a ~4:1 scale). The underlying terrain map itself (map.bmp) is still on the 1:1 scale. Of course, it's pretty important that the two maps allign correctly. And one thing to keep in mind is that the size of this .dds file directly affects performance in the game.

I'm anxious to see what some of you folks do with Map Maker. It sounds like we will see some nice looking maps coming out.

Thanks
rick

(in reply to HintJ)

Post #: 36

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 4:07:34 PM

benpark

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Thomm, any DDS file that fits within the square format will work once you build the "megatexture". These are of a set of standard sizes that are quite large (I can't recall off the top of my head what they are).

You can basically draw/cut and paste into any image that you can think of. Something like a winding road, sidewalk or path can be rendered with all of the arcs and non-jagged edges that you would see in real life. This should follow the underlying, color-coded map that the game engine uses somewhat- but it provides some great degree of freedom in the end result. I would say it's quite a bit like making a CC map texture, but in 3D.

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Post #: 37

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 9:43:43 PM

HintJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Thomm, any DDS file that fits within the square format will work once you build the "megatexture". These are of a set of standard sizes that are quite large (I can't recall off the top of my head what they are).

You can basically draw/cut and paste into any image that you can think of. Something like a winding road, sidewalk or path can be rendered with all of the arcs and non-jagged edges that you would see in real life. This should follow the underlying, color-coded map that the game engine uses somewhat- but it provides some great degree of freedom in the end result. I would say it's quite a bit like making a CC map texture, but in 3D.

Very, very good news! J2D, definitely do not use that file I posted. If I understand this correctly, as long as I have a squared .dds file, the texture will set correctly. On a 500M map, I hope that a 1000 pixel .dds wouldn't be much of a performance hit.

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Post #: 38

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 9:48:54 PM

HintJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomm

So, I re-read the editor threads, or at least some of them.

Conclusion:

The terrain bitmap that makes CC so pretty is of little use, because it cannot be displayed directly in PC:O.

BUT:

Both the terrain elevation data and the terrain tile type data can be very easily converted into bitmaps (I should have code ready for this) that can be re-imported into the PC:O map editor.

And since the resolution of PC:O (1 m) is twice that of CC (2 m) the conversion should be quite successful.

Best regards,
Thomm

Excellent! Could it create one of those grey-scale looking things, and would you be willing to post/share the code?

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Post #: 39

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 10:09:04 PM

Thomm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hint

JExcellent! Could it create one of those grey-scale looking things, and would you be willing to post/share the code?

In principle, yes.

I did not touch these things for some years now. I am pretty sure that I still have the source code somewhere.

It may take weeks until I get to this. I am severely overcommitted at the moment.

Of course it would help if there was an editor guide available. I still do not really understand what all those files do.

Best regards,
Thomm

(in reply to HintJ)

Post #: 40

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 10:37:00 PM

junk2drive

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Here is what I started to do last night. MR is the master at this step. I don't have the patience that he does for drawing all the roads and streams and such. Anyway I'll hold off until we have a better idea of what we are doing.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 41

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/22/2011 11:13:51 PM

HintJ

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Thanks for the offer anyway!

The reason I want to hold off for now is that I'm afraid that a 500 pixel texture is going to look bad near the ground level. According to Benpark and Rick, I can do a larger resolution for the texture as long as it is still squared.

What you've posted there is a 1000 pixel shot--I assume from expanding my 500 pixel original--I plan to use at least 1000 pixel texture (more if no performance hit) so that it looks like the actual CC map in PC, but still use 500 for the map data and size.

< Message edited by HintJ -- 4/22/2011 11:22:49 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/23/2011 12:13:36 AM

Stridor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HintJ

Thanks for the offer anyway!

The reason I want to hold off for now is that I'm afraid that a 500 pixel texture is going to look bad near the ground level. According to Benpark and Rick, I can do a larger resolution for the texture as long as it is still squared.

What you've posted there is a 1000 pixel shot--I assume from expanding my 500 pixel original--I plan to use at least 1000 pixel texture (more if no performance hit) so that it looks like the actual CC map in PC, but still use 500 for the map data and size.

Hi HintJ,

I wrote the map maker and everything else (PCK->PCO) although I am no longer connected to the project so can't offer any "official" post release support if there is any compatibility issues with IE9 for example (which there probably will be knowing Microsoft) or bugs in the code. Matrix has someone else working on that now.

You can use any size power 2 square dxt1 dds for the megatexture, this is limited by your machine specs.

For example you could have a 500m square map and use a 8192x8192 dxt1 dds this would give you 16x16 = 256 pixels per square meter which would look superb even close up! 8192x8192 is probably the limit on the texture size. A 2000x2000 map (the largest) = 4x4 = 16 pixels per square meter which actually doesn't look too bad.

I did some tests and could go 16384x16384 in some circumstances, but boy you need a lot of vid memory and a fast machine to run at that sort of res, not to mention edit at that sort of resolution.

Map maker by default only generates a megatexture which is 1m = 1pixel for performance reasons, but you are welcome to change it out. As always it is a balance between performance and graphics quality.

This is for the megatexture. You can still use the older technique of repeating textures and overlay masks if you need high (albeit repeated) ground resolution.

A lot of megatexture stuff was done before I added the grass (small object) rendering engine, and surprisingly use of this new system negates a lot of the need for highres megatextures.

Regards

S.

(in reply to HintJ)

Post #: 43

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/23/2011 12:47:09 AM

HintJ

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Thanks so much for all the work you have done Stridor! (and everyone else that worked on PCO, also.)

That is such good news about the textures. I mean extremely good news, better than I had hoped. I've played CC countless hours and dreamed about what the game would look like in 3D! I'm not saying I can make a great CC map, but at least the possibility is there to have a CC map look just as good, if not better, than it does in CC itself.

Without a doubt, this is one of the my most anticipated games in a long time. I know that I'll love it because I already like PCK.

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Post #: 44

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/23/2011 12:51:17 AM

benpark

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The only real issue with using CC maps or satellite images for source material is that 3D objects sometimes look odd on a ground texture. Buildings, trees and the like are odd looking and need replacing.

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Post #: 45

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/23/2011 4:44:20 AM

Mad Russian

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I would make two copies of the map made from a 2D rendering. One to recreate the textures you want and the other to show placement of structures. The one I would overwrite with the colors I wanted. The other I would keep for references.

HintJ, the picture that you supply to MM for your terrain features doesn't have the textures or use the terrain map for textures in any way. What MM does do with the terrain map is allow you to assign textures to the colors on the map. Hence, the reason you see large areas of solid colors on my terrain maps. I want large areas of textures not something that looks like it has the measles. OTH, there are times when it's the measles all the way.

Just depends on what it is you're trying to do with MM.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 46

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/23/2011 11:16:13 PM

HintJ

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MR, please correct me if I'm wrong here.

My plan is to get a large quality screen shot for the base texture, squared. I then will reduce it to 500px500p for a 500mx500m map, import it into MM, and then paint the map data, according to what I see on the map w/individual colors read by MM. I can then also paint a grey-scale elevation map in MM.

Once finished, MM will create a megatexture, which I can replace w/my original larger texture map that jibes w/the map data?

< Message edited by HintJ -- 4/23/2011 11:19:27 PM >

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Post #: 47

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/24/2011 8:22:43 AM

rickier65

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I see that it looks like yesterday Matrix uploaded another Map Maker Tutorial to 'you tube' . this one on creating wooded areas.

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/391/links/Panzer.Command:.Ostfront

Thanks
rick

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Post #: 48

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/24/2011 9:29:57 AM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HintJ

MR, please correct me if I'm wrong here.

My plan is to get a large quality screen shot for the base texture, squared. I then will reduce it to 500px500p for a 500mx500m map, import it into MM, and then paint the map data, according to what I see on the map w/individual colors read by MM. I can then also paint a grey-scale elevation map in MM.

The screen shot doesn't need to be high quality. None of the screen shot will end up in the game. The colors on your screen shot will simply be used to assign terrain textures to.

I would take it to a paint program and "clean it up" before bring it to MM.

quote:

Once finished, MM will create a megatexture, which I can replace w/my original larger texture map that jibes w/the map data?

Once you make the map it will generate the megatextures for you. Those can be modified later or not as you see fit.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 49

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/24/2011 9:43:57 AM

Mad Russian

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This screen shot shows the colors I used to make 4 maps. The upper left hand corner is a 2km map, lower left hand corner is a 1.5km map, lower right hand corner is a 1km map and the upper right hand corner is a 500 meter map.

All I use are plain solid colors.

Good Hunting.

MR

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/24/2011 9:45:32 AM >

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Post #: 50

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/24/2011 10:24:08 PM

Mad Russian

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Which means that any map, including the one you posted, or any part of it can be used directly in MM after correctly sizing it.

MM uses the colors on the map to determine textures. So whatever colors are on the map will work for selecting texturing. Where the issues start to get a bit more complicated in our favor is the the more colors the more options you have.

If you notice this map it looks brown and green. But if there is any shading difference at all in the mapping colors you have to assign textures to them. Or they stay with whatever you set the standard texture default to be.

Much of the detail on this map are structure details as well. All buildings, trees, crops, foxholes, trenches, and, of course, grass will be added separate from the texturing.

Good Hunting.

MR

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/24/2011 10:28:19 PM >

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Post #: 51

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/24/2011 10:35:40 PM

Mad Russian

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Here is just a part of your map under magnification. You can see that there is much more going on that a simple green and brown. There are many shades of green and brown. Where the buildings and trees are setting is each going to have a texture assigned to them. Either by you or by MM.

From your screen shot I would remove all trees, foxholes, trenches and buildings. By remove them I mean do a solid color where they are now.

That's why you see solid blocks of easily identifiable colors on my maps. Not because they will be any less textured than the picture of your map. But because they are going to have those textures applied over those basic colors. Where I would use your map is to come back and color in the areas you want trails, roads, the village, the water, open terrain. Then I would texture it according to the original screen shot you took. That should get it looking pretty close.

Good Hunting.

MR

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 52

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/25/2011 7:56:29 AM

diablo1

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My idea of a neat map would be a huge forest cottage in the middle of the battle map with 6 roads leading into it, 1 from the nw, 1 from the ne, 1 from the w, 1 from the e, 1 from the sw and 1 from the se. Surrounded by forests and Grass, all kinds of grass, lots of grass. lol The cottage would be the sole objective for both sides. Units would start at the board edges 3 for the soviets and 3 for the germans all converging on this hamlet with smoke pouring out of its chimney with the smells of pork and beef, and fresh baked breads and kegs of rum surrounding the outsides of it. Through the windows scouts from both sides have spotted 4 lovely voluptuous females going about their business of making dinner with no males in sight. No tanks all infantry, offboard support allowed though. As the battle rages the cottage would change hands many times over with squads of men rushing through the door, ravaging the fresh pork & beef and hot buttered breads and then gourging themselves on the lovely ladies just before the enemy squad moves in, blasts through the doorway riddling their enemy with bullets and then dragging their corpses outside and then repeating what had just been done, ravaging the pork & beef and hot buttered breads and then gourging themselves on the lovely ladies only within moments finding themselves at the end of riddling bullets tearing and ripping through their own flesh and turning out their lights and being dragged out the door, tossed in a sea of blood and bodies already littering the wooded landscape near the cottage....

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Post #: 53

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/25/2011 12:17:54 PM

HintJ

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What I plan to do is maybe use that map (or one like it) for simply painting the different terrain. But for the actual textures, I will use a much higher resolution screen shot of the same map, touched up a bit.

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Post #: 54

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/25/2011 3:29:57 PM

Erik Rutins

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Diablo1,

You can do whatever you want with the editing tools, but that's too much information, thanks. Please keep this a family friendly forum.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 55

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/25/2011 4:32:19 PM

diablo1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Diablo1,

You can do whatever you want with the editing tools, but that's too much information, thanks. Please keep this a family friendly forum.

Regards,

- Erik

I forgot to mention the soldiers were "vampires".

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Post #: 56

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/25/2011 8:20:56 PM

Mad Russian

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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: diablo1

My idea of a neat map would be a huge forest cottage in the middle of the battle map with 6 roads leading into it, 1 from the nw, 1 from the ne, 1 from the w, 1 from the e, 1 from the sw and 1 from the se. Surrounded by forests and Grass, all kinds of grass, lots of grass. lol

Yeah...LOT'S OF GRASS....

quote:

The cottage would be the sole objective for both sides. Units would start at the board edges 3 for the soviets and 3 for the germans all converging on this hamlet with smoke pouring out of its chimney with the smells of pork and beef, and fresh baked breads and kegs of rum surrounding the outsides of it. Through the windows scouts from both sides have spotted 4 lovely voluptuous females going about their business of making dinner with no males in sight.

If there wasn't a war going already that would start one.

quote:

No tanks all infantry, offboard support allowed though. As the battle rages the cottage would change hands many times over with squads of men rushing through the door, ravaging the fresh pork & beef and hot buttered breads and then gourging themselves on the lovely ladies just before the enemy squad moves in, blasts through the doorway riddling their enemy with bullets and then dragging their corpses outside and then repeating what had just been done, ravaging the pork & beef and hot buttered breads and then gourging themselves on the lovely ladies only within moments finding themselves at the end of riddling bullets tearing and ripping through their own flesh and turning out their lights and being dragged out the door, tossed in a sea of blood and bodies already littering the wooded landscape near the cottage....

And then it's time for the counterattack.....

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 57

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/29/2011 2:21:59 AM

diablo1

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I kinda got tickled at Erik; he publishes games of simulated killing and destruction that even keep the rememberance of Hitler and Stalin alive and then tells me to "keep this a family friendly forum" lmao Sorry Erik but that was kind of ironic and funny. My story was tame compared to what happens in the games you publish and what they are about. I've seen AAR's more descriptive than my little story.

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Post #: 58

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/29/2011 4:53:09 PM

Thomm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Mad Russian,

Could you please just throw that texture on a map with random elevations?

I am just curious what this looks like, because so far I recall seeing only generic textures generated from "solid" color bitmaps.

In other words: I still don't get it!

Best regards,
Thomm

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 59

RE: Your Style Maps - 4/29/2011 6:50:36 PM

rickier65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomm

..Could you please just throw that texture on a map with random elevations?

I am just curious what this looks like, because so far I recall seeing only generic textures generated from "solid" color bitmaps.

In other words: I still don't get it!

Best regards,
Thomm

Thomm, I used an existing map and just laid the texture over it. The texture quality isn't what you'd want to use since i downloaded the screenshot resized it to 1000 x 1000 then converted to a dds. ideally you'd do all of your texturing work with some high fidelity source, then convert to dds as last step.

but in about 10 minutes I did this.

Thanks
Rick