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Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/13/2011 8:50:31 PM   
SSFSX17

 

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The latest public version is v6: http://www.advancedtactics.org/scenario.php?nr=136

Any feature requests are welcome, although I am not good at scripting, nor counter graphics.

Overall Changes:
- Neutral hexes are not autoconquered.
- Two types of roads. The original type, Railroads, are now very efficient, especially for transferring units. The type that can be constructed by engineers, creatively named "Constructed Roads," has the stats of the original roads, except that supply movement takes 2 AP to move across constructed roads, and rail movement takes 20 AP to move each hex.
- Most units cost twice as much to upgrade as they used to, for a total of 20% of the cost to produce the units.
- Advanced Units (super-heavy tanks, rockets, guerrillas, rangers, etc.) are now researchable.
--- Super-Heavy Tank Theory: Heavy Tank & Tank Destroyer
--- V-Weapon Theory: Heavy Artillery, Rocket Artillery Theory
--- Rocket Artillery Theory: Bazooka II, Mortar II
--- Ranger Theory: Paratrooper, Staff II
--- Kamikaze Theory: Carrier Fighter, Torpedo Bomber
--- Militia Theory: none
--- Guerrilla Theory: Rifle/SMG II, Staff III
--- Fortification Theory: Staff II, Engineer II
--- Occupation Theory: Militia Theory, Staff IV
- Different special advantages for each people group (based on the default style of game with full Level 1 research):
--- Germans: -10% production, -10% oil output, Divebomber II, Fighter II, Flak II, Halftrack II, Heavy Tank, Medium Tank, Submarine II
--- Anglo-Americans: +10% production, +10% raw mining, Ranger Theory
--- Russians: +10% production, +10% oil output, Commissar II
--- French: Engineer II, Fortification Theory, Guerrilla Theory, Guerrilla, Heavy Artillery
--- Arabs: +20% oil output, Guerrilla Theory, Guerrilla, Guerrilla II
--- Japanese: +10% morale, Battleship II, Carrier Fighter, Torpedo Bomber
18, 64, 99, 95
--- Chinese: +10% production, Occupation Theory
--- Africans: +20% raw mining, Guerrilla Theory, Guerrilla, Torpedo Boat II
- Political Points & Supplies - different graphic for each peopletype (not necessarily historical, pictures were hard to find for some of them)

Changes to existing Subformation Types:
- Anti-Tank Guns - easier to research, but level II and higher requires basic Artillery research. Higher levels can be used as short-range artillery, with best results against armored units and surface vessels.
- Engineers - higher levels implemented, with more EP, entrench per turn, and blow bridge points. They also have the improved hit points and anti-tank abilities of higher-level Rifles.
- Flak - higher levels also have longer range
- Guerrillas - they now have 10 favorite target tries, and prefer to shoot at infantry and soft mobile targets.
- Halftracks - higher levels now also carry machine guns (represented by having similar combat capabilities to machine guns)
- Horses - they should be used more often by the AI for the correct purpose. They also now use 2 supply each.
- Infantry Guns - easier to research, but level II and higher requires basic Artillery research. Infantry Gun IV's artillery attack is corrected.
- Katyusha - completely revamped as "Rocket Artillery." They are light enough to be mounted on tanks. Instead of being one-shot weapons, they instead lose readiness after attacking.
- Mercenaries - they now have supply need and supply cap of 3, representing the fact that they require more money than normal soldiers. Mercenary Bases function as both airfields and ports, and are able to build transport units in addition to mercenaries.
- Militia - they now have only 1 favorite target attempt and only 3 initiative.
- Mortars - only cost 250, but they only have 3 attacks per round (instead of 5) to compensate. This brings them more in line with Bazookas and Machineguns. Mortar IV can do artillery strikes with range 1, with power equivalent to basic Mortar at that range.
- Paratroopers - higher levels implemented, with more Supply carry, Recon, and Hide. They also have the improved hit points and anti-tank abilities of higher-level Rifles.
- Rangers - they all now cost 300 to build, can paradrop, have 4 Supply Carry, 2 recon per man, limited hiding ability, are half as good at blowing bridges as engineers, are excellent at attacking Artillery and will strongly prefer to go straight for enemy artillery pieces, and are slightly better at attacking armored vehicles. In short: Rangers are like Paratroopers except they represent an even greater threat to artillery parks, bridges, and the like, but they cannot hold positions for extended periods of time.
- SMGs - higher levels are more accurate in open terrain, up to SMG IV having only a 10% penalty. This is meant to represent the development of assault rifles. In order to compensate, all SMGs now have supply need and carry of 3, to represent the fact that they use a lot more bullets. SMG II and III now upgrade correctly.

New Subformation Types:
- Bulldozers - Light tank with bulldozer attachment, excellent at clearing obstacles, and can help with engineering and entrenchment.
- Commissars - They are like Staff and Machineguns put together. They are horrible at improving combat effectiveness, such that even Commissar IV is only worth 75% of basic staff in terms of combat effectiveness, but they provide massive bonuses to morale.
- Flame Tanks - specialized armored unit that works best when assaulting fortifications, and in dense urban environments
- Flamethrowers - specialized infantry unit that works best against fortifications, vulnerable in any other situation
- Obstacles - Landmines, barbed wire, dragon's teeth, hedgehogs, and other things which can be quickly dropped into place. They are especially-annoying against soft mobile and armored units. They can provide light cover for infantry, although this is not as effective as using Halftracks.
- Self-Propelled Anti-Air - works well as an anti-infantry unit too
- Self-Propelled Artillery - also works decently for direct-fire, although not as efficient in the front as Tankdestroyers and Assault Guns
- Torpedo Boats - Cheap and maneuverable hunters of battleships, but they cannot venture far from their home ports by themselves.

Desired:
- I am not a graphic artist, so I need NATO symbols with the proper dimensions and transparencies for the following:
--- Assault Guns (if different from the symbol for tank-destroyers)
--- Carrier Air & Torpedo Bombers
--- Heavy / Rail Artillery (if different from the symbol for standard artillery)
--- Kamikaze planes / suicide aircraft
--- Levelbombers / Twin-Engined Bombers
--- Mercenaries (if different from the symbol for standard infantry)
--- Militia
--- Rangers
--- Rocket Artillery (not necessarily motorized)
--- Super-Heavy Tanks (if different from the symbol for Heavy Tanks)
--- Trains
--- V-Weapons / SRBMs
--- All the new SFTypes of this mod. In particular, I am curious if there is even a NATO symbol for commissars.


< Message edited by SSFSX17 -- 4/21/2011 10:29:47 PM >
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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/15/2011 7:50:03 AM   
SSFSX17

 

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Version 1 is now up: http://www.advancedtactics.org/scenario.php?nr=136&tpage=0&tplayer=0&ttag=13&tai=0&tdeleted=0&tengine=0

Plan for next version: do everything except for the new SFTypes.

Plan for version 3: everything will be laid to Burnination!

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/15/2011 10:43:15 AM   
DakaSha

 

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trying it out. sounds interesting :)

< Message edited by DakaSha -- 4/15/2011 11:15:30 AM >

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 1:44:22 AM   
DakaSha

 

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I think some other things need to be taken into account: One being the fact that the japanese get +10 morale. This isnt researchable so its just a flat out bonus to that regime.

Rangers need to be worked on (but thats a vanilla issue)

I also dont think paratroopers should need to be upgraded. They should be upgraded along with Rifle/SMG.
To 'make sense' they should need a base tech. (So you cant buy paratroopers unless you purchase the paratrooper tech.. however if you have Rifle II then your paratroopers are also level II)

I didnt look at the paratrooper stats bt perhaps they should be a mix of rifle and SMG?

Militia tech seems a bit under priced.. Yeah they are crap units but you can buy hordes of them. and just for atmospheres sake i personally think it should be more of a decision to buy the tech. 10 pp is pretty low

My 2 cents

Edit: also rocket artillery 2 needs its preq changed as described in the thread in the tech help forum.



< Message edited by DakaSha -- 4/16/2011 2:11:34 AM >

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 6:04:23 AM   
SSFSX17

 

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Version 2 is now up, with many little tweaks

For the next version: FIRE! FIRE! HEH-HEH-HEH!

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 6:34:29 AM   
DakaSha

 

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japanese still have moral upper hand
not sure if the other regimes are balanced in other ways but as far as i can tell they arnt *shrug*

I just set them to 50 for my games

edit: Infantry gun upgrades also seem extremely cheap. not sure how thats even calculated but i bought level 4 on my second turn (would have been turn 1 with 4 more pp :P )

< Message edited by DakaSha -- 4/16/2011 7:57:36 AM >

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 8:07:25 AM   
DakaSha

 

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Hmm also if everybody can get rangers then why would one ever get paratroopers? I guess rangers cost more to produce but a) they are better b) they upgrade automatically with Rifle/SMG :-/ Not to mention that you also need higher levels of Rifle/SMG just to be able to research paratrooper techs

The amount of pp you have to stick into paratroopers doesnt seem worth it if you can just get the rangers. Im not basing this on tests or anything but at first glance paratroopers look worthless. correct me if im wrong

edit: is having to buy staff II the balance factor? In that case wouldnt the anglosaxons have a better start over say china? :P

Sorry if i sound like im trashing this but actually im pretty interested in the mod.. So im just pointing out things i notice.

< Message edited by DakaSha -- 4/16/2011 8:26:01 AM >

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 9:00:46 AM   
SSFSX17

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DakaSha

Hmm also if everybody can get rangers then why would one ever get paratroopers? I guess rangers cost more to produce but a) they are better b) they upgrade automatically with Rifle/SMG :-/ Not to mention that you also need higher levels of Rifle/SMG just to be able to research paratrooper techs

The amount of pp you have to stick into paratroopers doesnt seem worth it if you can just get the rangers. Im not basing this on tests or anything but at first glance paratroopers look worthless. correct me if im wrong

edit: is having to buy staff II the balance factor? In that case wouldnt the anglosaxons have a better start over say china? :P

Sorry if i sound like im trashing this but actually im pretty interested in the mod.. So im just pointing out things i notice.


The main balancing factor is that ordinary Paratroopers only cost 200 to build each, and get better supply carry, recon, and hide at higher levels. They are better for general-purpose operations behind enemy lines, and in the long run, can hold territory for a longer period of time than Rangers.

I modded Rangers so that they cost 300 each, which means that any player who trains them had better put them to use, especially for hitting artillery parks and blowing bridges, or else that production could have been spent on training 50% more Paratroopers. I also tested using Rangers entirely in place of Rifles, and the results were that Rangers only have a slight edge due to the fact that I've modded them to start with maximum experience.

If the balance gets too far out, then Paratroopers may be changed to only cost 150. They were already a risky investment in the original Advanced Tactics, mostly for cutting off roads for only 1 or 2 turns.

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 9:50:39 AM   
DakaSha

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SSFSX17


quote:

ORIGINAL: DakaSha

Hmm also if everybody can get rangers then why would one ever get paratroopers? I guess rangers cost more to produce but a) they are better b) they upgrade automatically with Rifle/SMG :-/ Not to mention that you also need higher levels of Rifle/SMG just to be able to research paratrooper techs

The amount of pp you have to stick into paratroopers doesnt seem worth it if you can just get the rangers. Im not basing this on tests or anything but at first glance paratroopers look worthless. correct me if im wrong

edit: is having to buy staff II the balance factor? In that case wouldnt the anglosaxons have a better start over say china? :P

Sorry if i sound like im trashing this but actually im pretty interested in the mod.. So im just pointing out things i notice.


The main balancing factor is that ordinary Paratroopers only cost 200 to build each, and get better supply carry, recon, and hide at higher levels. They are better for general-purpose operations behind enemy lines, and in the long run, can hold territory for a longer period of time than Rangers.

I modded Rangers so that they cost 300 each, which means that any player who trains them had better put them to use, especially for hitting artillery parks and blowing bridges, or else that production could have been spent on training 50% more Paratroopers. I also tested using Rangers entirely in place of Rifles, and the results were that Rangers only have a slight edge due to the fact that I've modded them to start with maximum experience.

If the balance gets too far out, then Paratroopers may be changed to only cost 150. They were already a risky investment in the original Advanced Tactics, mostly for cutting off roads for only 1 or 2 turns.



Ok cool. I didnt compare stats. I just based the thought off of your post. Keep it up i prefer this to the vanilla game :)

Whats your opinion on the Japanese moral boost?

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 11:55:30 AM   
DakaSha

 

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infantry gun 4 cant harm anything with artillery strikes :-/ (vanilla issue though)

< Message edited by DakaSha -- 4/16/2011 11:57:09 AM >

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 8:16:40 PM   
SSFSX17

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DakaSha

infantry gun 4 cant harm anything with artillery strikes :-/ (vanilla issue though)


Yep, it does no damage whatsoever with its artillery attack. Suffice to say, I've fixed this for the next version of my mod.

Most-interesting: they can be used as short-ranged coastal defenses if you are really desperate. Not as good as just using ordinary artillery, of course.

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 10:06:36 PM   
DakaSha

 

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I find it strange that the inf guns seem to do more damage to tanks then inf.. im not sure how the system works though so maybe im misinterpreting it

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 11:06:50 PM   
SSFSX17

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DakaSha

I find it strange that the inf guns seem to do more damage to tanks then inf.. im not sure how the system works though so maybe im misinterpreting it


Tanks have a lot of hitpoints. By "a lot" I mean they start with 3000 and go up from there. Armoured Cars probably have at least 1000 (I haven't checked today).

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/16/2011 11:10:40 PM   
SSFSX17

 

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New update: http://www.advancedtactics.org/scenario.php?nr=136

Lots of new SFTypes added, especially ones based on the Light Tank chassis. Until the next ATGold patch, any updates will be balance changes and other fixes.

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/18/2011 5:45:09 AM   
SSFSX17

 

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Another new update: http://www.advancedtactics.org/scenario.php?nr=136

Horses should be used by the AI more now. They also now use 2 supply, representing that although they don't need bullets, they do eat a lot of food.

Another big revamp of Rocket Artillery. Now they have the health and movement of artillery, need 10 supply per round, and are light enough to be mounted on tanks. They lose 10 readiness every time they attack, and burn 10 fuel every combat round. The Kill/Retreat ratios on their attacks are changed to 5%/10%. This is meant to represent the idea that you might carry them slowly or on horses to represent Nebelwerfers, carry them on tanks to represent the Calliope, or carry them on trucks to represent the Katyusha.

Commissars are cheaper to research.

Obstacles now have 200 hit points, so that they are more worth the metal they require to be built. They can still be overwhelmed by sending hordes of militia to go step on the landmines and carry away the dragon's teeth & hedgehogs by hand. Their symbol has been changed to that of an Engineer, and their symbol weight is lower, since testing revealed that I am not a graphic artist.

Naval units, in general, cost twice as much to upgrade as they used to. I may decide to do this sort of change for vehicles and airplanes too. Also played around with the AI Role Scores for carriers and naval aircraft (carrier fighters and torpedo bombers) to see if the AI can be enticed into building these things.

New SFType: Torpedo Boats - Cheap and maneuverable hunters of battleships, but they cannot venture far from their home ports by themselves.

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/18/2011 6:27:33 AM   
DakaSha

 

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sounds cool. cant wait till the patch is out so i can try it :P
edit:

Did end up trying it:
Japanese still have upper hand as far as i can tell xD

AI role seems a bit off.. but again i dont know how the mechanics work exactly.. Im getting stacks of 50+ obstacles on the front line without any kind of inf. same with flamethrowers

< Message edited by DakaSha -- 4/18/2011 9:06:02 AM >

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/18/2011 9:43:58 AM   
SSFSX17

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DakaSha

sounds cool. cant wait till the patch is out so i can try it :P
edit:

Did end up trying it:
Japanese still have upper hand as far as i can tell xD

AI role seems a bit off.. but again i dont know how the mechanics work exactly.. Im getting stacks of 50+ obstacles on the front line without any kind of inf. same with flamethrowers


The AI Role scores for these units are already set pretty low. I would guess that the AI goes overboard in producing a lot at one time, and then has to figure out how to distribute them. More testing, across hundreds of turns, will be required before I figure it out.

It also has a tendency to build more stuff than it can supply, then change all its production to supplies. I tried out a naval game where it made a number of failed landing attempts. I was able to kill its destroyer + cargoship groups, then it stopped trying to retake control of the sea altogether. This isn't so bad on land games.

< Message edited by SSFSX17 -- 4/18/2011 9:48:14 AM >

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/18/2011 10:14:30 AM   
DakaSha

 

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I think you may be misinterpreting the values. Id just set them the way the vanilla game does.

For instance flamethrowers would be only infantry support. With a score of 50 or so (not sure what a larger number means.. if it means build more then maybe only 10)
By giving it infantry 10 you are telling the AI that it is a viable non support unit.
Also you give obstacles Artillery and Armour. so the AI thinks they are viable for those roles. If it works this way they too should be pure support

At least thats my current noob understanding. Maybe im wrong

edit: if im right it seems there is no way to do any kind of armor support. I know there are AI variables for how much it mixes armor with inf, inf with support and art with inf but it doesnt seem to let you specify .

*if* im right then some things may not just be very feasible with the AI.

< Message edited by DakaSha -- 4/18/2011 10:19:03 AM >

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/19/2011 3:10:33 AM   
SSFSX17

 

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Another version up. Clearly I have far too much free time on my hands, but it is all for the good of the Advanced Tactics community.

Everything costs double to upgrade. Not just ships: everything. This means that it is much more likely that you will want to either disband old hardware, use mixed units with both old and new hardware, or use fodder troops to hold the front lines while withdrawing experienced units and upgrading them.

Yet more changes to Rocket Artillery. They no longer use fuel when attacking, since this is only used in direct attacks - instead, they cost 10 fuel to build (in addition to their original cost). They have slightly more hitpoints against other artillery. And, last but not least, their supply usage has been increased back to 20, so that the readiness loss for attacking is more costly.

There are now two different kinds of roads. The railroads that a map starts out with are now very efficient, especially for land transfers, but they cannot be built. The roads that engineers can build have the stats of the original railroads, except that supply movement needs 2 AP per hex of constructed road.

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/19/2011 12:43:20 PM   
DakaSha

 

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I give up

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/19/2011 7:23:34 PM   
SSFSX17

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DakaSha

I give up


I am planning a very different mod which will be easier for the AI to handle (far fewer types of units), and which will have more interesting faction balance. The "Generic to the 17th" mod is just for fun.

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/20/2011 1:39:23 AM   
DakaSha

 

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I'm just taking offense at not ever receiving any response (even when you do what i suggest :P ) so i kinda feel like a dumbass even saying anything :P

But:
Yeah it may be a good idea to split mods that are for fun or designed with multiplayer in mind and mods that are good for play with AI. Personally I'm looking forward to both. you seem to be the only person creating non-scenario based mods (for now anyways)

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/20/2011 3:13:35 AM   
SSFSX17

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DakaSha

I'm just taking offense at not ever receiving any response (even when you do what i suggest :P ) so i kinda feel like a dumbass even saying anything :P


My apologies: sometimes while working on things I get in "the zone." So, for Generic to the 17th Gold, I'll see what can be done about making the factions more balanced.

The Japanese morale bonus can be a bit of a double-edged sword, as it means that troops are slightly more likely to die rather than retreat, to sit there and keep on taking artillery shells, or to stand around waiting for bombers to drop bombs on them. On the other hand, I can see why it's there - historically, that was indeed one of the strengths of the IJA.

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/21/2011 7:24:10 AM   
SSFSX17

 

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Taking a break from making an update every single day, in order to figure out balance between factions. Comments are welcome.

Germans: -10% production, -10% oil output, Divebomber II, Fighter II, Flak II, Halftrack II, Heavy Tank, Medium Tank, Submarine II

Anglo-Americans: +10% production, +10% raw mining, Ranger Theory

Russians: +10% production, +10% oil output, Commissar II

French: Engineer II, Fortification Theory, Guerrilla Theory, Guerrilla, Heavy Artillery

Arabs: +20% oil output, Guerrilla Theory, Guerrilla, Guerrilla II

Japanese: +10% morale, Battleship II, Carrier Fighter, Torpedo Bomber

Chinese: +15% production, Occupation Theory

Africans: +20% raw mining, Guerrilla Theory, Guerrilla, Torpedo Boat II

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/21/2011 9:00:44 AM   
DakaSha

 

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Better then it currently is and with more flavor. Actual balance as in everybody being equally well off may be hard but it looks like a start.

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/21/2011 10:27:55 PM   
SSFSX17

 

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Version 6 is up, using beta 2.01c

New political & supply pictures are mostly working (not necessarily historical) and the new faction changes have been implemented.

Any future updates, besides graphics, are definitely going to be balance changes for factions & SFTypes only.

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RE: Generic to the 17th GOLD - 4/22/2011 4:39:27 AM   
DakaSha

 

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I havnt been testing because i was waiting for patch. Has the AI been using your new stuff correctly with the changes in AI role?

edit: hmm is there any way to play without nato counters or any hope of a non nato version? its basically unplayable to me with nato counters xD

edit: who knows maybe id get used to them

< Message edited by DakaSha -- 4/22/2011 7:25:35 AM >

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