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Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

 
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Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 3:47:26 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		I see that Gary has started an AAR for this game, and we haven't even started yet. I wonder what tall tales his is telling there.

I will try to keep up with the AAR, but I am bad about it, so there might be some gaps. If I get questions and/or suggestions I will be more inclined to post - I hate it when I feel I am just posting for myself.

This is a scenario 1 game with limited house rules: 
These were from Gary

   1. Issuing orders on turn 1: In order to simulate suprise, Japanese player will have the freedom to issue
      any orders he wants on turn 1 except where they conflict with other house rules. Allies OTOH can give no 
      orders of any kind on turn 1.

   2. Turn 1 Port Attacks: Japanese player may attack simultaneously in only one time zone of the map on turn
      1.  In other words if you choose to port attack Manila you can't port attack Pearl but you can also port 
      attack Singapore. If you port attack Pearl then you can't port attack Manila or Singapore.

   3. Japanese player cannot knowingly go after Allied carriers on turn 1. However, after turn 1 game is open.

I proposed the following:
 
    1. Max aircraft altitude is the second best maneuver band.  This seems to be the best I have seen and tried.  
       It limits the worst of the high altitude sweeps and such and yet allows the different aircraft to be 
       different.
    2. No strategic city attacks in or out of China before 1/1/44.  It is too easy for the Japanese to completely 
       eliminate the Chinese supply and thus the Chinese.

Gary decided that my #1 rule was not needed.

I guess the first thing to be decided when playing the Japanese is just what goals do I have and what is the overall style and direction I am expecting to take the game in.

I have two games as Allies now and both of my opponents have basically just taken what I would consider the pre-war Japanese expected conquests and started defending. Since neither over extended themselves, I have found it hard to find a way to attack early. Both games are in April 1943 and even though I am preparing massive offensives for the very near future now, there has been no good way to attack before this. Neither is moving KB to a location I can see so I have to wonder just where their assets are. It is a bit frustrating.

So, at least one idea is to secure Burma, DEI, New Guinea, and Solomon Islands. A base or two in the Aleutians would be useful too.

The counter idea is to go all out and try to take either India or OZ. Either is an intriguing idea but which one and with what resources? If I invade one or the other, do I go for the entire country or stop short of the reinforcement line? My feeling is that I would want to go for the entire country, the reinforcements arrive mostly at off map locations so really the Allies just have a little bit more that the normal massive LCU strength.

Something in the middle is also attractive, Burma, DEI, NG, Solomons, New Caldonia, Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa. Coupled with a reinforced China force that would try for a China elimination. This has the advantage that the Islands could be protected with smallish forces and the presence of KB to discourage Gary from trying to take back the South Pacific islands too early. Mostly this is somewhat of a delaying tactic. I would be hoping to inflict some serious losses on his forces when he makes those invasions. Of course, he might decide to attack from somewhere else ( Java or Timor area or possibly into Sumatra).

I will have to make a decision soon, before I complete my turn one. I have a lot to do and most of it will be somewhat conventional. I will put about historic strength into Luzon, but will leave Mindanao until later.
Attacks into Ambon, Kendari, and Koepang are top on my list along with Northern Borneo. I will need to find troops to take Rabaul, Port Moseby, and Lunga along with engineers and aircraft. Palembang is also high on the take early list. Lots of decisions to make and only a few more days to make them. I have given myself until Sunday morning to finish my turn 1. The major decisions have to be made in the next couple of days. I have made a mistake before of starting a game as Japan without a clear plan and it was a disaster. I do not plan to do that again.

i am open to suggestions if anyone wants to make them.



< Message edited by Nomad -- 4/21/2011 3:49:23 AM >

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RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 4:33:00 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Subscribed. 

Now to settle back in comfort!

Cheers Mate!



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Pax

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 2
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 4:45:53 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		My $0.02:

If you decide to go all out, I wouldn't mind seeing you go for India.  Two reasons: One, hasn't been done yet but been awful close to show it could be done.  Two, if you do and take out china, even if you don't auto-victory, I think having your western flank so secure until SOV intervention is going to allow you to really frustrate the US offensive.


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Pax

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 3
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 5:54:45 AM   
BJStone


Posts: 135
Joined: 1/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

i am open to suggestions if anyone wants to make them.



Maybe go for the oil? Sumatra, Borneo, Java, & Burma would be a good start. And if you take Burma and close down the China supply line that should make things easier on the Chinese front. Other then the glory of taking India, what is there that you want?

Oil Centers within the reach of the Rising Sun:

Rawalpindi, India----------020

Medan, Sumatra-----------210
Bangkalis, Sumatra-------040
Djambi, Sumatra----------250
Palembang, Sumatra----- 900

Miri, Borneo----------------150
Brunie, Borneo------------010(010)
Tarakan, Borneo----------090
Balikpapan, Borneo-------300
Samarinda, Borneo-------100

Magwe, Burma------------300
Ledo, Burma--------------070

Soerabaja, Java----------190
Tjepoe, Java--------------035

Lanchow, China------------090
Unumachi, China-----------050
Sian, China-----------------020

Boela, DEI------------------025
Babo, DEI-------------------020

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 4
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 5:57:17 AM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline 		Subscribed... A Master directing the Rising Sun.

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 5
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 9:10:11 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		I vote for India and then China. Clear the whole left side. If you can do it in 42 the Allies have little to work with in the So Pac and your LBA can keep them at bay there and in the DEI until 43.

If it works you bring up the threat of auto victory, which may bring those Allied CVs into the light, and also are set up well for a later defense. Plus it would just be fun. With Australia you would have all of the extras piled into Burma and knocking at your vitals early in 43. Plus, there would be more supply and less need for it after the conquest of India. Whereas in Australia you would have to keep it well stocked and garrisoned for as long as you kept it.

To hide intent and secure the north flank I would also grab an Aleutian or two, and the historical including Noumea and PM in the So Pac. Could keep the mini KB as a retaliation force in the pacific, and move the KB to India to guard the reinforcement lanes between Aden/Cape Town, and Karachi/Bombay. If you were very tricky, would it be possible to swing KB into Indian ocean between Sumatra and Java and hit the British fleet early, before he moves the CVs and large surface fleet out? Just a thought.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 6
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 10:13:46 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

...I have two games as Allies now and both of my opponents have basically just taken what I would consider the pre-war Japanese expected conquests and started defending. Since neither over extended themselves, I have found it hard to find a way to attack early. Both games are in April 1943 and even though I am preparing massive offensives for the very near future now, there has been no good way to attack before this. Neither is moving KB to a location I can see so I have to wonder just where their assets are. It is a bit frustrating.

So, at least one idea is to secure Burma, DEI, New Guinea, and Solomon Islands. A base or two in the Aleutians would be useful too.

The counter idea is to go all out and try to take either India or OZ. Either is an intriguing idea but which one and with what resources? If I invade one or the other, do I go for the entire country or stop short of the reinforcement line? My feeling is that I would want to go for the entire country, the reinforcements arrive mostly at off map locations so really the Allies just have a little bit more that the normal massive LCU strength.

Something in the middle is also attractive, Burma, DEI, NG, Solomons, New Caldonia, Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa. Coupled with a reinforced China force that would try for a China elimination. This has the advantage that the Islands could be protected with smallish forces and the presence of KB to discourage Gary from trying to take back the South Pacific islands too early. Mostly this is somewhat of a delaying tactic. I would be hoping to inflict some serious losses on his forces when he makes those invasions. Of course, he might decide to attack from somewhere else ( Java or Timor area or possibly into Sumatra).

I will have to make a decision soon, before I complete my turn one. I have a lot to do and most of it will be somewhat conventional. I will put about historic strength into Luzon, but will leave Mindanao until later.
Attacks into Ambon, Kendari, and Koepang are top on my list along with Northern Borneo. I will need to find troops to take Rabaul, Port Moseby, and Lunga along with engineers and aircraft. Palembang is also high on the take early list. Lots of decisions to make and only a few more days to make them. I have given myself until Sunday morning to finish my turn 1. The major decisions have to be made in the next couple of days. I have made a mistake before of starting a game as Japan without a clear plan and it was a disaster. I do not plan to do that again.

i am open to suggestions if anyone wants to make them.




Nomad,

I note that you did not post in Q-Ball's AAR v Canoerebel. That suggests to me that you have not read that particular AAR.

Rather than just receiving short suggestions from others now, I would strongly urge you to read that AAR in full. Although it deals with scenario 2, the extensive (and I do mean extensive) discussion in that AAR from several adept Japanese players (and some pure Allied players) should help you in formulating your thoughts for move 1 of this game. Not only will you see the many different ideas floated but also how successful they were.

Just in case I need a bit more star power to get you to read that AAR, some of the regulars who posted extensively on that AAR were:

Nemo
Chickenboy
Bullwinkle
John 3rd
crsutton

plus more limited contributions from several other regular players.

Alfred

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 7
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 3:55:20 PM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		I second Alfred's recommendation. If you are going for outright conquest of India, consider seizing Karachi by sea and then blockading India's west coast to prevent arrival of reinforcements. I would also read Canoerebel's side of the AAR for further insights by an Allied player trying to counter an India invasion.

Nemo once said either go for full conquest of India or don't land a single troop there. After much thought I agree, although seizing NE India can get you a buffer and a good amount of industry. Invading India without crossing the line of death only lets the Allies have a free sanctuary from which to engage you in a ground war with restricted LCUs. This is the basis for my recommendation that you hit Karachi early if you plan on India. If playing Scenario 1 the task of course is harder.

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(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 8
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 4:06:50 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Nomad,

I note that you did not post in Q-Ball's AAR v Canoerebel. That suggests to me that you have not read that particular AAR.

Rather than just receiving short suggestions from others now, I would strongly urge you to read that AAR in full. Although it deals with scenario 2, the extensive (and I do mean extensive) discussion in that AAR from several adept Japanese players (and some pure Allied players) should help you in formulating your thoughts for move 1 of this game. Not only will you see the many different ideas floated but also how successful they were.

Just in case I need a bit more star power to get you to read that AAR, some of the regulars who posted extensively on that AAR were:

Boy, talk about a murderer's row:

Nemo - let's face it, Matrix gave a special copy of the game to him: WITP-NE (Nemo edition)

Chickenboy - too busy studying the effect of the Eastern New Guinea biting louse on morale to be of much help

Bullwinkle - busy thwarting Boris and Natasha's latest evil scheme

John 3rd - one wonders what happen to John 1st and John 2nd

crsutton - when crsutton talks, people listen

plus more limited contributions from several other regular players.

Alfred


Just joking guys. If anyone could figure out how to take India, its that group

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 9
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 7:06:03 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

Nomad,

I note that you did not post in Q-Ball's AAR v Canoerebel. That suggests to me that you have not read that particular AAR.

Rather than just receiving short suggestions from others now, I would strongly urge you to read that AAR in full. Although it deals with scenario 2, the extensive (and I do mean extensive) discussion in that AAR from several adept Japanese players (and some pure Allied players) should help you in formulating your thoughts for move 1 of this game. Not only will you see the many different ideas floated but also how successful they were.

Just in case I need a bit more star power to get you to read that AAR, some of the regulars who posted extensively on that AAR were:

Nemo
Chickenboy
Bullwinkle
John 3rd
crsutton

plus more limited contributions from several other regular players.

Alfred


Exactly. While I'm no expert here, I read both AARs in their entirety, and there is all you need to know to fix what went wrong for Japan in that game in the discussions.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to vettim89)
Post #: 10
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 7:24:47 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

Nomad,

I note that you did not post in Q-Ball's AAR v Canoerebel. That suggests to me that you have not read that particular AAR.

Rather than just receiving short suggestions from others now, I would strongly urge you to read that AAR in full. Although it deals with scenario 2, the extensive (and I do mean extensive) discussion in that AAR from several adept Japanese players (and some pure Allied players) should help you in formulating your thoughts for move 1 of this game. Not only will you see the many different ideas floated but also how successful they were.

Just in case I need a bit more star power to get you to read that AAR, some of the regulars who posted extensively on that AAR were:

Nemo
Chickenboy
Bullwinkle
John 3rd
crsutton

plus more limited contributions from several other regular players.

Alfred


Exactly. While I'm no expert here, I read both AARs in their entirety, and there is all you need to know to fix what went wrong for Japan in that game in the discussions.


What??? Japan failed? Horrors. I have started reading, I am up to the start of the invasion of Ceylon. I will finish tonight( I am reading Q-Balls AAR first ).


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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 11
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 7:44:04 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Conquests in the Pacific beyond the historical line (+Port Moresby and maybe southern Gilberts) are enormous logistical drain and will leave your perimeter stretched and vulnerable. I think total conquest of either India or Australia is unfeasible in Scen 1. I mean it might theoretically happen, but not because of your actions, because the opponent made some colossal blunders. Not a good bet to make.

I think the only region that definitely should be added to the perimeter in Scen 1, beyond the standard fare, is Northern Australia. The buffer against a direct Allied attack to DEI is really nice, and logistical difficulties make it relatively hard to retake by ground. Invasions beyond that, well, aren't totally unworthy of consideration, because they might be used to destroy Allied garrizons and draw Allied fleets into battle, but everything else on the map is either very hard and risky to hold by autumn of 1942, or not really worth holding. Better to use one's forces to pressure China harder, IMO.



< Message edited by FatR -- 4/21/2011 9:29:26 PM >

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 12
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/21/2011 8:59:53 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline 		Unfortunately Ken knows from our 2x2 as Allies that the Allies can fall all the way back to French Polynesia in early 1942 without it being much more than a nuisance (I say unfortunately in that it happened to us and we were pretty powerless to stop it). I know Ken knows this but a Division or two post haste to Palembang my friend!

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 13
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/22/2011 2:02:13 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Hmmm, sounds like FatR laid down a challenge. I will ponder some more. I don't need to make the final decision yet, so I will get back to doing my turn 1.

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Post #: 14
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/24/2011 1:19:06 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Well, we are off. I sent off the first turn to Gary just now. Probably not perfect, but I hope good enough. I make at least one error( I hit something wrong when I was doing my aircraft production and ended up with a factory making 70 C5M2 instead of 90 A6M2) I made the necessary corrections, it will make things a bit tight in the first few turns, but no big problem.

I still have not completely made up my mind about going to India or elsewhere, but I have set up my first turn to at least allow me to go that way. For right now my divisional assignment are: 

2nd Division	Malaya		
4th Division	Sumatra
5th Division	Malaya		Patani
16th Division	Philippines	Maubaun
18th Division	Malaya		Kota Bharu
21st Division	Malaya
33rd Division	Sumatra
38th Division	Hong Kong
48th Division	Philippines	Vigan
55th Division	Burma
56th Division	Burma
Imperial Guards	Malaya		Singora(RR)

I do have the required two divisions prepping and moving toward Palembang. I intend to take it early. If I am going to India, I need to take Malaya reasonably quickly, so I did allot 5 divisions to that end. I did not plan for a Mersing gambit. The 38th will most likely go to Java after taking Hong Kong. The South Pacific will have to make due with SNLFs and Naval Guards units. The 5 Malaya divisions and the two Sumatra divisions would be the leading assault troops for an India invasion.

I ran a number of tests while doing my turn and in every one of them the Zuikaku Kates attacked in the afternoon, I do not know why.

I expect Gary to return the turn quickly when he knows he has it.


< Message edited by Nomad -- 4/24/2011 1:21:47 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/24/2011 1:32:18 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Sounds like a sensible, flexible plan.

I'm on the record of not being overly concerned about the festung Palembang ploy but if you can capture Palembang early without adversely affecting your other operations, then by all means go for it. Are you proposing to go Sinkawang first and them immediately Palembang? That would seem to be the quick way of capturing Palembang. Delaying the capture of Miri/Brunei by a couple of weeks to accomodate Palembang would be neither here nor there.

Alfred

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 16
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/24/2011 1:40:34 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Right now my plan is to move the two divisions to Cam Rahn Bay and then move to Palembang. I have a small force out that can go to Sinkawang if I feel it is safe. It depends on whether I sink force Z on turn one or not. I also have a force moving to Miri. I have a number of small forces at Babeldaub that will be moving into the Ambon, Kendari, Timor area.

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Post #: 17
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/24/2011 3:21:58 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Exactly. While I'm no expert here, I read both AARs in their entirety, and there is all you need to know to fix what went wrong for Japan in that game in the discussions.


As an AI-only player I certainly don't belong with that august group. My main contribution was endlessly, ceaselessly, advocating taking Karachi now, Now, NOW!!! To me, India is a naval campaign more than land. And it should begin in the west and move east.

I think should Karachi be secured early that India is certainly doable, although it offers many, many challenges related to garrisons, supply routes, etc, etc. ad infinitum. It is quite possible that the main challenge to India (or Oz) is not in the mechanics or the analysis, but rather the guts to commit 100%, to burn the ships on the shore and move toward the goal with no recourse but to win or die. I believe Q-Ball would say that his error was not so much in the plan (although he left Karachi alone out of fear of the Line of Death), but in the willingness to commit hammer and tongs to the plan.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 18
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/24/2011 5:52:45 AM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		Listen to the Bullwinkle if you are planning on India. He more thoroughly articulated my point from earlier posts. Take Karachi and blockade the West coast of India or steer another direction, IMHO.

_____________________________


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 19
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/25/2011 4:05:23 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		OK, first turn is done and returned. I expect Gary to take at least 2 days to get things organized. Things went well, but not perfect. I did not get any reports of BBs sinking at PH, but both Repulse and PoW have been sunk. I am going to bomb PH another day and see if some more ships sink. Might not be the right thing to do, but I like to hit PH hard and it looks like two days is it this time.

India, there are a lot of possibilities in India.
1. Do nothing, occupy Burma, fortify and wait.
2. Take Ceylon and Burma and wait.
3. Take Ceylon, Burma, and the Bengal region.
4. My favorite, land at Karachi first. I think this is the only way you can take India. You trigger the reinforcements early but most of them will be stuck in Aden.
From the Bullwinkle report:
xAK Charles McCormick arrives at Cristobal
xAK Ganges arrives at Cape Town
AM Kiwi arrives at Auckland
AM Moa arrives at Auckland
XXI Indian Corps arrives at Aden
6th Indian Division arrives at Abadan
10th Indian Division arrives at Aden
Waziristan Division arrives at Karachi
31st Armoured Division arrives at Aden
8th Indian Division arrives at Aden
Emergency Convoy Supply Convoy arrives at Aden
5th Indian Division arrives at Aden
XXI Corps Engineer Battalion arrives at Aden

So, you will have to deal with an extra division at Karachi since it will show up before you can take the city. And the Waziristan Division is not very strong, it has no heavy weapons, mostly infantry and support.

So, if I was going to invade India, I would first have taken Malaya, Sumatra, Christmas Island, Cocos Island, and Diego Garcia( you might want to take Addu also). Then move through the straits between Sumatra and Java to the edge of the map board. Go up the side of the map to about 10 hexes of Socotra. Send an invasion fleet to Socotra, it will be needed as a float plane search base and most importantly, send at least 6 Lima AKEs and 9 large AOs. The rest of what you take goes directly to Karachi. If you can do this with some stealth, 3 divisions should be enough, so I would want to take 5 divisions with a lot of support elements. It's a very large operation but if it succeeds you will have India at hand. The reinforcements will have to get by your surface combat fleets and air both at Socotra and Karachi( Socotra starts as a size 2 airbase.) Most likely your opponent will rush most of his forces toward Karachi to evict you and you can then land 5 more divisions around Calcutta to take the important factories and such in that area. As you push down the coast from Karachi you will limit any places he can land either troops or supplies from Cape Town. The main ideas are to have two major landing areas, restrict what he can do with his reinforcements, take much of the supply producing areas from him, and finally systematically eliminate his troops. If done early, he will have very limited air power and your air force should reign supreme.

Anyway, that is a rough outline of how I would proceed in taking India. I'll wait for Nemo to blast a hole or two into it.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 4/25/2011 4:09:20 AM >

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(in reply to Cribtop)
Post #: 20
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/25/2011 5:14:19 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Sounds like you are trying to approach Karachi by stealth (a point I have recently made in another AAR), hence the plan to transit the Sunda Strait rather than the Strait of Malacca and the prior capture of the Cocos, Christmas and Diego Garcia Islands. Whilst the capture of these islands prior to launching the Karachi invasion fleet would be desirable I'm not certain it is absolutely necessary. I would place more weight on landing at Karachi (or the hex adjacent) ASAP rather than on a stealth approach. With the POW and Repulse destroyed, if you can land in February 1942 there would be little which could be amassed against you even if the invasion fleet is discovered early.

I would modify your early planning to incorporate the capture of Cocos, Christmas and Diego Garcia en passant as the main fleet is transiting near those islands. IOW the Karachi bound invasion fleet would have two components; by far the larger one would be the ships travelling to Karachi with no intervening stopovers, the smaller one would be the ships carrying the troops to capture the Cocos/Christmas/Diego Garcia in the wake of the main component. Those islands will be lightly garrisoned in February. You could drop, capture, reembark the same troops and move onto the next island; rinse and repeat whilst you enjoy the amphibious bonus. It would not matter too much if the en passant component falls a bit astern of the Karachi bound component.

All three islands plus Socotro are important to keep the off map assets (includes any redeployed from CONUS to CapeTown) bottled up and unable to meaningfully intervene in India and South East Asia.

Also if you do proceed along your indicated route, I don't think it is vitally important that the whole of Sumatra be captured before you launch the Karachi operation. You already plan to capture Palembang in early December 1941. From Palembang it is a short distance to Oosthaven which will not be strongly garrisoned. Early capture of Merak on Java to secure the Sunda Strait would be more beneficial than the other, non built up southern Sumatran bases. The northern Sumatran bases (Medan, Sabang etc) are of course important for their oil and force projection into the Strait of Malacca but as you don't intend to transit through that waterway with your Karachi invasion fleet, you don't need those bases before launching the Karachi operation. Those northern Sumatran bases will not be overly strongly garrisoned so follow up forces, perhaps those released from the Luzon campaign, should suffice.

Essentially I am suggesting that the main factor to achieve success in a deep operation such as the one you are proposing for Karachi, is speed. Undertaken early enough (I am suggesting February, January would be even better but that depends on how quickly resistance in Malaya is overcome) with the amphibious bonus, weak RN and RAF theatre forces, USN unable to assist due to PH strike effects and travel times, you can risk leaving your flanks temporarily open.

Alfred

edited to clarify meaning, as the first paragraph might have been misinterpreted.

< Message edited by Alfred -- 4/25/2011 7:04:15 AM >

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 21
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/25/2011 1:00:15 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		You are most likely right Alfred, I am putting too many demands on the table. One of the the things I would be afraid of is my opponent having enough time to put additional troops into Karachi. Failing to take Karachi is pretty close to game over. And that is a problem. I really do not want to try something spectacular and fail. I'm not sure it is fair to Gary.

_____________________________


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 22
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/25/2011 1:24:51 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

You are most likely right Alfred, I am putting too many demands on the table. One of the the things I would be afraid of is my opponent having enough time to put additional troops into Karachi. Failing to take Karachi is pretty close to game over. And that is a problem. I really do not want to try something spectacular and fail. I'm not sure it is fair to Gary.


Alfred is correct that speed is the sine qua non of an India op. Q-Ball took an extra three weeks to dispose of Ceylon, and it was a vital three weeks of notification. He had not decided at the time to go all-in on India, and you have, so that is a key difference.

That said, Ceylon left for later can't be ignored early. You probably need to factor into your plans some forces to isolate the heavy ground units there from jumping across onto the railroads on the mainland. (I don't recall what starts at Colombo, but maybe the British 18th Diiv?) He'll also have Colombo as a refuel and repair yard to some extent, so you need to factor that into your routes for secondary and follow-on waves into NW India.

Also, take a good look at the Emergency Reenforcement thread, especially the Emergency Ind. Supply Convoy screenie. He will get a significant device pool dump of aircraft, including about 75 good fighters and a number of large bomber models. These could be used out of Bombay, pulled into Colombo for TF harrassment, or other places and missions. The LCUs in the reenforcement package will be largely bottled up in the Mideast unless he blasts Karachi back open, but the devices, so long as he has supply to pulll them out, are a factor to remember.

Really looking forward to an all-India go which uses the lessons of Q-Ball's try.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 23
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/25/2011 2:46:54 PM   
fodder


Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Daytona Beach
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Really looking forward to an all-India go which uses the lessons of Q-Ball's try.


I'd really like to see it also. One thing to remember is that Nomad does'nt have the extra units that Q-ball did.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 24
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 4/25/2011 3:13:50 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fodder


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Really looking forward to an all-India go which uses the lessons of Q-Ball's try.


I'd really like to see it also. One thing to remember is that Nomad does'nt have the extra units that Q-ball did.


True, which is further recco for bypassing Ceylon. I think it's also very necessary to just pin Luzon and not try to take it until extra divisions can be bought out.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to fodder)
Post #: 25
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 5/1/2011 1:09:12 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		I'm sure some of you probably think I forgot this AAR, but Gary took 5 or 6 days to do his first turn.

We hit Pearl Harbor a second day. These are the total results:
Dec 7th AM:
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 3, on fire
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
AM Tern, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB California, Bomb hits 7, on fire
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 2, on fire
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 6
DM Preble, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Henley, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 2, on fire
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CM Oglala, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Detroit, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
AV Wright, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AVP Swan, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DM Gamble, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires

Dec 7th PM:
BB California, Torpedo hits 1
BB Arizona, Torpedo hits 2
BB Maryland, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
CM Oglala, on fire
DD Tucker, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
BB Nevada, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CL St. Louis, Torpedo hits 1
BB Oklahoma, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

Dec 8th
BB California, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Mugford, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
BB West Virginia, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, heavy damage
BB Arizona, Torpedo hits 3, heavy damage
DM Preble, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DMS Zane, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


Total:
BB Oklahoma 4 Bombs 3 Torps Sunk?
BB West Virginia 5 Bombs 2 Torps
BB Pennsylvania 5 Bombs
BB California 9 Bombs 6 Torps
BB Tennessee 5 Bombs 2 Torps
BB Arizona 6 Bombs 5 Torps
BB Nevada 3 Bombs 4 Torps
BB Maryland 4 bombs 4 Torps Sunk?

According to the ingame ship sunk list, only BB Nevada has been sunk at PH. I assume an adjustment will be made in the following turns.

I have reset my aircraft on KB for Naval attack and I am retiring to the Southwest and then West toward my tankers at Kwajalein Island. I did not spot his CVs yet, so I will try to see where they went. I am holding the Wake Island invasion off until I do spot them or get a part of KB into position to support.

In Malaya I took Kota Bharu and started marching units from Singora to Alor Star and from Patani toward Georgetown. I am not marching from Kota Bharu, but will reload most of the units for an amphibious attack on Kuantan. The 2nd Division is loading at Sendai( it is complete ) for Malaya. The 21st division is in Shanghai prepping for Singapore and waiting for transportation.

The 4th Division is loading at Osaka to transit to Cam Ranh Bay and is prepping for Palembang. The 33rd is in Nagasaki prepping for Palembang and waiting for transportation.

The 90th Inf Rgt has been combined and is prepping for Port Morseby and transportation will arrive the next turn.

China, I have a picture. I will be concentrating my first efforts to take Sian. I am in the process of moving to the area now and also freeing up some troops by sending the RGC units to garrison some cities.

edit: I see my text is a bit hard to read on the picture. I will attempt to hold at Ichang and the other is to herd all of the Chinese units toward Sian.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Nomad -- 5/1/2011 1:12:06 AM >

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(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 26
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 5/1/2011 5:30:30 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		I was asked some questions in a PM and for everyone, the 'herding' reference is something from Mogami, he likened China to herding cats.

_____________________________


(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 27
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 5/1/2011 8:55:07 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		If you are going for Sian right away, I suggest not to push hard enough to rout the Chinese on Central Plains unless you see that they are in full retreat from Turn 1. It's better to leave them where they can be cleaned up later, instead of facing a concentrated defense at Sian.

Check your garrizons in China, a couple of good divisions and brigades can be freed there just by rearranging units in the rear.

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 28
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 5/1/2011 9:22:54 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		And on invasion of Karachi... it is pretty much gambling on your opponent not expecting such audacity. If the possibility and consequences of it are taken seriously from Day 1 (and so most construction units available in India are dedicating to building it up), it will almost certainly fail. It will most likely fail if move in this direction is spotted or indicated (by seizing islands like Diego Garcia) before the invasion convoy is 1-2 days from shore, because the Allied player can (and should) reinforce Carachi with everything he has if he sees a coming attack, and just accept both relatively minor VP hits from undergarrizoned bases for a time and possibility of relatively inconsequential Japanese conquests.

Of course, as no players of note have attempted this yet, a surprise IS possible... but judge carefully.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 29
RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary - 5/1/2011 7:15:24 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Turn three was relativity calm. I lost an xAK with some troops off of Brunai to a sub and another xAK to some darn stringbags( using bombs ) at Singkawang. I think I can take Singkawang this next turn, we will see. I landed on Luzon at Aparri and at Laoag. I am not completely sure, but I think the amphibious TF ended its movement at Laoag and decided to start unloading. It is not a tragedy, just necessitates a slight redirection.

Had a couple of encounters with all of the PT boats in the PI, sunk 5 of them with no damage to me.
Oddly, I saw last turn that there were ships in Manila harbor still, so I sent two Betty units on port attack. I got this result:
Allied Ships
AV Langley, Bomb hits 1
AVD Childs, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Bisayas, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
PG Tulsa, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Paz, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Si Kiang, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAP President Madison, Bomb hits 1, on fire

My one CVL TF and a CA/DD TF are positioned off of Borneo. Ryuho is out of Torpedoes, but has lots of bombs ready. No sign of Boise or Houston yet. In fact, not many ships sighted at all in that area. Just a few TFs seem to have left Manila so far. I am sure the subs are out somewhere . I did find one and sank both AO Pecos and AO Trinity and AS Otus it still has more SC and a ACTF to get by yet.

I have invasions forces moving to Mando and Ternate that should arrive in two turns. I have small CA/DD and DD/TB escorts for them.

I have been very happy with the performance of my Ki-27b Nates in Malaya. Then have done excellent and have kept all of the British bombers from hitting any shipping there. They don't shoot done many aircraft, but they keep the disruption up and the bombers are not able to score any hits.

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(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 30
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