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Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/23/2011 10:52:30 AM   
sillyflower


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From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline 		For those of you who don't remember DNO it had a Rudel counter that had a 1/3 chance of destroying a russian tank brigade every (fortnightly) turn.

{ Hans-Ulrich Rudel destroyed over 500 soviet afvs during the war + lots of other stuff. see his book 'stuka pilot'}

It would be great here at helping to slow the russian tank buildup and should stop complaints about stukas hardly ever knocking out afvs in this game

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/23/2011 11:02:30 AM   
cookie monster


Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline 		I don't think it fits in the scale of the game. HEHE

Nice joke though. Perhaps you could try them in the stickied game suggestions thread.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/23/2011 5:49:35 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		Pivoting a little bit:  Were Ju-87s as awful in 1941 as the game mechanics seem to dictate?
I know it was proved inferior and far too vulnerable in the Battle of Britain, but I thought basic dive-bombing was still pretty effective, useful, and low-risk in Barbarossa's initial couple months.


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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/23/2011 9:11:46 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		JU-87G-1 was the final operational variant of the Stuka. Fitted with two 37mm cannon in underwing pods. This is what Rudel flew. This was also the aircraft that influenced the design of the A-10 Warthog. 'Stuka Pilot' written by Rudel was required reading for the people on the A-X project, the team that developed the A-10.

The JU-87G was needed because the HS-129, although a good ground attack platform, had large fuel tanks that made it vulnerable to enemy fire.

Also, the JU-87G was uparmored by copying the armor of the Il-2.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/23/2011 10:51:13 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

I don't think it fits in the scale of the game. HEHE

Nice joke though. Perhaps you could try them in the stickied game suggestions thread.


Fits much more here in a game that models individual a/c unlike DNO :)

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Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/23/2011 11:56:32 PM   
bcgames


Posts: 2527
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From: Bramble Rose Farm, KS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

For those of you who don't remember DNO it had a Rudel counter that had a 1/3 chance of destroying a russian tank brigade every (fortnightly) turn.

{ Hans-Ulrich Rudel destroyed over 500 soviet afvs during the war + lots of other stuff. see his book 'stuka pilot'}

It would be great here at helping to slow the russian tank buildup and should stop complaints about stukas hardly ever knocking out afvs in this game

hmmm...this sounds like an interesting challenge. I wonder if it can be done using the editor? If so, what's the goal? I think to be successful, one must achieve the closest approximation of the effects of the Rudel counter in DNO/UNT and the players must know that Rudel (or his counter) was responsible for creating those effects. It's a puzzle.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/24/2011 12:12:04 AM   
runyan99

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 7/21/2008
Status: offline 		If the air war worked properly, people wouldn't ask for a Rudel unit.

There are two things wrong with the model as is.

1) Only one ground attack per week. Why? The idea that a Stuka squadron can only target enemy land units once is silly and without merit. If a target ground unit attack represents a large number of flights over the course of a week, it should use up a large proportion of allowed flight miles, and actually produce some results, which leads to the next point...

2) Air attacks on ground units cause few casualties.

So, you bomb once a week, and it does nothing. No wonder people are looking for an effective special counter.

Only interdiction seems to produce significant casualties, and it does not even work on trains 95% of the time.

The air war needs a lot of work.

< Message edited by runyan99 -- 4/24/2011 12:15:33 AM >

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/24/2011 12:41:15 AM   
bcgames


Posts: 2527
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Bramble Rose Farm, KS
Status: offline 		When I responded to Sillyflower, it was out of a sense of nostalgia. I believe that was the sense of his posting too. He can correct me if I was incorrect in my perception. I remember placing the Rudel counter and having it placed on my troops. That was DNO/UNT! Who could possibly remember one counter from a game published decades ago?! I will tell you--those who played the game.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/24/2011 1:31:29 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		The infamouse Rudel counter. I used it lovingly.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/24/2011 2:14:53 AM   
bcgames


Posts: 2527
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From: Bramble Rose Farm, KS
Status: offline 		Indeed.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/24/2011 7:20:58 PM   
Krafty

 

Posts: 395
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline 		Ju-87 B1 and B2 were responsible for over 2,000 vehicle kills in the first few months of Barbarossa. Theyre incredibly good and tough little aircraft. A 500kg bomb was more than enough to turn light and medium tanks inside out. The D variant added 2x20mm cannons. The G, which was by far the worst, put two useless 37mm anti tank guns under the wings, but removed the ability to carry a bomb. With only 13 rounds per gun loaded in the 37mms, and requiring a shallow dive angle against the rear or top of an enemy tank AND needing for those rounds to hit at convergence, it just increased the amount of stukas shot down, and lowered the amount of vehicle and personnel kills.

Rudel was a bafoon, and lucky. He also cost the lives of dozens of his men to get his incredibly kill scores (that are heavily refuted).

And the G barely offered any more armor protection than the B2 or D2. Those 37mm guns were heavy.

The D2 with the 2x20mm cannons in the wings, with the upgraded Jumo, carrying 1000kg bombs was one of the most effective air to ground platforms ever devised.




And no one ever mentions the old Bf110, who could carry 2x250kg bombs, was faster than most VVS aircraft at the start of the war, carried 2x20mm cannons in the nose, which were very accurate and easy to aim for pilots not familiar with deflection shooting. It easily outclimbed anything the VVS deployed, and could be fitted with all sorts of gear critical to fighting in the soviet union.

It was a good little airframe as well.

< Message edited by Kraftwerk -- 4/24/2011 7:23:22 PM >

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 12:24:46 AM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kraftwerk


Rudel was a bafoon, and lucky. He also cost the lives of dozens of his men to get his incredibly kill scores (that are heavily refuted).



Rescued 18 pilots/crew at different times after they were shot down. Shot down and wounded himself, escaped and was able to get through Soviet lines. 3500+ missions. Credited with 18 aircraft kills. Countless tanks and other vehicles. Numerous ships of various sizes. Survived the entire war flying a Stuka, much of it on the East Front.

If this is your idea of a bafoon then perhaps all soldiers and pilots should try and be bafoons. I guess Alvin C. York and Audy Murphy were bafoons too. That would put bafoons in some very good company.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 12:35:38 AM   
Ketza


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Status: offline 		He might be refering to Rudels being a unrepentent Nazi.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 12:39:38 AM   
Panama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

He might be refering to Rudels being a unrepentent Nazi.


Uh oh...

*Panama runs to the bomb shelter before the bombs go off*

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 12:44:48 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
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From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		Hans-Ulrich Rudel (2 July 1916 – 18 December 1982) was a Stuka dive-bomber pilot during World War II and a member of the Nazi party. The most highly decorated German serviceman of the war, Rudel was one of only 27 military men to be awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds, and the only one to be awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Gold Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds.

Rudel flew 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, a destroyer, two cruisers, one Soviet battleship, 70 landing craft, 4 armored trains, several bridges and nine aircraft which he shot down


Nazi or not the man could fly the hell out of a Stuka.

Wonder how he would do in a Warthog flying over Kuwait!

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 1:56:16 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Rudel was the ultimate Baron von Münchausen. It is quite unbelievable how he managed to succeed with his imaginary kill claims. Perhaps he was the perfect soldier for the system to promote?

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 4:56:57 AM   
Krafty

 

Posts: 395
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline 		You know there WERE other people in his group and squadron. Im sure they did their fair share of helping in all those rescues..but no one ever considers the other 5 or six planes that dropped bombs on the Marat, or covered his six, or "dove on the grenade" so to speak for their hero over and over again.

Audie Murphy didnt walk around decorated like a christmas tree after the war, and wasnt an unrepetent fascist. In his book all he does is tell the reader how much he respects all the sacrifices of the men who got him there. Stuka Pilot reads like a pulp adventure novel, only its a true story written by a self absorbed dweeb :)

But thats just my personal opinion. Dick Bong and Bud Anderson are kind of turds too. Gunther Rall on the other hand, and Chuck Yeager, while being braggarts, never hestitate to mention that theyre merely standing on the shoulders of giants. Without some other poor bastard and wingmen out there getting his tail shot off, they would never have lived, let alone killed half the people they did.

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Post #: 17
RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 7:15:26 AM   
scalp

 

Posts: 41
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Status: offline 		Rudel? Greatest liar. He was a hero of Nazi propaganda and most of his " victories " were unconfirmed, or were confirmed by Rudel himself only. So all those numbers of thousands of tanks destroyed by Rudel are in Rudels dreams. Read his book to see that. Too many mismatches and outspoken lie. There was an episode when Rudel says that he annihilated the whole russian cavalry division during one day on his Stuka...OMG
Absolutely true, he was a good pilot, but like many other German pilots in Luftwaffe. Just a victim of propaganda and it is really sad he was a nazy himself for all his life.

< Message edited by scalp -- 4/25/2011 7:16:39 AM >

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 10:14:45 AM   
Krupinski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scalp

Read his book to see that.


Which book? Author? Please give us a link..

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Post #: 19
RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 12:30:14 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		LMAO. Someone simply wanted a Rudel counter and the flame jockeys storm out of the barracks like a bunch of girl scouts rushing to sell their over priced biscuits. NAZI!!!!! LIAR!!!!! PROPAGANDA!!!!!!!

It's really quite pathetic. Put the game away. There are far too many Nazi counters on the map. Only the Pacific and Asia for you.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 1:19:34 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		What is pathetic is that people actually believe all that Rudel stuff. Read any proper study of air power effectiveness in WWII, and you will understand how wildly exaggerated his combat record is.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 1:27:16 PM   
Krupinski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

What is pathetic is that people actually believe all that Rudel stuff. Read any proper study of air power effectiveness in WWII, and you will understand how wildly exaggerated his combat record is.


http://bit.ly/i61Jxv

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 4:29:26 PM   
Krafty

 

Posts: 395
Joined: 3/26/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

What is pathetic is that people actually believe all that Rudel stuff. Read any proper study of air power effectiveness in WWII, and you will understand how wildly exaggerated his combat record is.



+1


I believe his entire GROUP did some of the things Rudel claims, but Rudel claimed them as if he did it all by himself.

By all accounts on the ground, the Marat wasnt sunk by a single plane.

Also how did he destroy so much in a Stuka G with no guns?! The 37mms required the other forward weaponry be removed. The 37mms were prone to jamming and ammo explosions when hit, so they usually werent fully loaded. Rudel had at most, 13-15 shots before being forced to return to base. Even flying twice a day, three times a day, he could not wrack up the kill scores that he claimed.

The D2 model with forward firing 20mms and 120 rounds per gun, now THAT could do some damage when used against soft targets. The 37mms loaded with armor piercing ammo, not HE or APHE as was loaded into the 20mm, could simply not destroy something like an artillery piece unless directly hit. With the rate of fire of the 37mms you might only get 3 or 4 shots at a target before passing over it.

Rudel is a bafoon if expected historians 60-70 years later to believe his claims.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 4:35:58 PM   
Lrfss


Posts: 349
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From: Spring, TX
Status: offline 		Hero of the Fatherland once again under attack...

Even worse, American MOH winners are given no slack and defamed...

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/25/2011 7:07:14 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline 		That's ok. They wouldn't mind and Sgt. York would wonder what all the fuss was about. "After all, those fellas over there lost and most are dead."

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/26/2011 11:43:32 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
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From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hafer



Which book? Author? Please give us a link..

The book is Stuka Pilot by Hans Ulrich Rudel

I am not qualified to enter the historical debate ( and don't really care much) but I do know a cool cardboard counter when I see one. The Rudel counter was one of the best ever IMHO. I was trying to make some folk feel a warm glow of nostalgia rather than having people get hot under the collar.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 26
RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/26/2011 12:01:58 PM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
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From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
I am not qualified to enter the historical debate ( and don't really care much) but I do know a cool cardboard counter when I see one. The Rudel counter was one of the best ever IMHO. I was trying to make some folk feel a warm glow of nostalgia rather than having people get hot under the collar.


Well, I think that warm glow you refer to might be related to what was that counter actually modeling



how on earth could otherwise the guy smoke 5,000 men and 80 tanks?

Wargame design can get really cheesy sometimes

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/26/2011 12:28:03 PM   
Panama


Posts: 1362
Joined: 10/30/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
I am not qualified to enter the historical debate ( and don't really care much) but I do know a cool cardboard counter when I see one. The Rudel counter was one of the best ever IMHO. I was trying to make some folk feel a warm glow of nostalgia rather than having people get hot under the collar.


Well, I think that warm glow you refer to might be related to what was that counter actually modeling



how on earth could otherwise the guy smoke 5,000 men and 80 tanks?

Wargame design can get really cheesy sometimes


I think you're confusing the Rudel counter with the Enola Gay counter.

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RE: Can we have Rudel counter please - 4/29/2011 10:28:01 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		Hans-Ulrich Rudel (2 July 1916 – 18 December 1982) was a Stuka dive-bomber pilot during World War II and a member of the Nazi party. The most highly decorated German serviceman of the war, Rudel was one of only 27 military men to be awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds, and the only one to be awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Gold Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds.

Rudel flew 2,530 combat missions claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed; including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery pieces, a destroyer, two cruisers, one Soviet battleship, 70 landing craft, 4 armored trains, several bridges and nine aircraft which he shot down


Combat duty during World War II
Ju 87 G-2 "Kanonenvogel" with its twin Bordkanone BK 3.7, 37 mm guns.Rudel flew his first four combat missions on 23 June 1941, during the German invasion of the Soviet Union. His demonstrated piloting skills earned him the Iron Cross 1st Class on 18 July 1941. On 23 September 1941, he and another Stuka pilot sank the Soviet battleship Marat, during an air attack on Kronstadt harbor in the Leningrad area, with hits to the bow using 1,000 kg bombs.[3] By the end of December, he had flown his 400th mission and in January 1942 received the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. On 10 February 1943, he became the first pilot in history to fly 1,000 sorties. Around this time he also started flying anti-tank operations with the 'Kanonenvogel', or G, version of the Ju-87, through the Battle of Kursk, and into the autumn of 1943, claiming 100 tanks destroyed.

By March 1944, he was already Gruppenkommandeur (group commander) of III./StG 2 (appointed on 19 July 1943) and had reached 1,800 operations. At that time he claimed 202 tanks destroyed.

On 13 March 1944 Rudel may have been involved in aerial combat with the Hero of the Soviet Union, Lev Shestakov.[citation needed] Shestakov failed to return from this mission and was posted as missing in action.[citation needed] From Rudel's memoirs:

Was he shot down by Gadermann [Rudel's rear gunner], or did he go down because of the backwash from my engine during these tight turns? It doesn't matter. My headphones suddenly exploded in confused screams from the Russian radio; the Russians have observed what happened and something special seems to have happened... From the Russian radio-messages, we discover that this was a very famous Soviet fighter pilot, more than once appointed as Hero of the Soviet Union. I should give him credit: he was a good pilot.

In November 1944, he was wounded in the thigh and flew subsequent missions with his leg in a plaster cast.

On 8 February 1945, a 40 mm shell hit his aircraft. He was badly wounded in the right foot and crash landed inside German lines. His life was saved by his observer Ernst Gadermann who stemmed the bleeding, but Rudel's leg was amputated below the knee. He returned to operations on 25 March 1945, claiming 26 more tanks destroyed before the end of the war. Determined not to fall into Soviet hands, he led three Ju 87s and four FW 190s westward from Bohemia in a 2-hour flight and surrendered to U.S. forces on 8 May 1945, after landing at Kitzingen airfield, held by the US 405th Fighter Group.

Eleven months in a hospital followed. Released by the Americans, he moved to Argentina in 1948.

and probly killed more people than anyone in the second world war less the nuke bombers crews, and was a bloody Nazi

not like Eric Hartman.

anyone thinking the JU87 was not a good aircraft does not know what he is talking about they made there own history

Damaged 2 CVs UK

Sunk at least 1 BB damaged 2 more UK,russian

Sunk at least 3 CA Damaged 2 more UK,russian

Sunk many DD around 12 mostly UK,Russian

hundreds small ships ,Bridges

Thousands of Tanks,planes on the ground.

Tens of Thousands ,Tucks ,trains ,bunkers ,...god knows how many people.

they made 5,700 JU87s well worth building them i would think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccOXrfBZoLE&feature=related


no counter thx

< Message edited by tigercub -- 4/29/2011 3:02:17 PM >

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