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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids)

 
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RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/11/2011 8:26:48 AM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		It is interesting to note that Soviet strength is considerably larger than that given by Glantz in "Titans" for the same period, 6,600,000 on 1 sept 1944. This despite the Soviets having suffered considerable heavier casualties both in manpower and production lost in this game than historically. German strength is also slightly above, Glantz gives it as 2,042,000 at the same time. My Axis minor allies also seems to be slightly above above the historical numbers.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 751
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/11/2011 8:36:54 AM   
sveint


Posts: 3556
Joined: 1/19/2001
From: Glorious Europe
Status: offline 		Very interesting game. I can't wait to get that far in, looks like good fun (furthest I am is Jan 1944).

I wouldn't withdraw too much except to avoid pockets. Victory conditions are based on the ground you hold.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 752
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/11/2011 12:47:57 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		By late 44 Russia was running out of men. They had to inlist millions of kids, old men and women to fill out non combat jobs and a few combat ones.

Russian loses increased every yr of the war from 41 to 44.

As far as wite goes moral is the key # .

An infantry division with 12,000 men and 85+ moral has a CV of 15ish.
Another division with 12,000 men and 60 moral will have a CV of about 5ish.

Pelton

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Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 753
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/11/2011 12:54:53 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Production turn 164. The extra armaments ar long gone, and it is interesting to note that I am already building up a manpower surplus again. It appears that German armaments production is still below where it should be.






I am in a game mid 43(1.05) and I have allot 250,000 armaments built up and increasing every turn.

The huge drain on armaments comes when you get a units pocketed. This is a very screwed up part of the game that needs to be fixed.

The 1 unit comes back and sucks up allot of manpower and armament pts automaticly. IF you had a chose to switch off or on refit before the next logistic phase this would greatly help you out.

Its a major design issue that needs to be addressed at some point.

If you could rebuild the divisions when you wanted as GHC you could control your armament pts better and moral.

The units come back with sht moral and hog manpower and equipment. I personally want the replasements and equipment going to front line high moral units and not POS units.

Pelton

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 754
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/13/2011 10:10:36 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Turn 166. August 17 1944.

The Soviet hordes are rolling west in the Dnepr bend! They are evidently concentrating their strength in the South. Otherwise, the Dnepr line is creaking, but holding for now.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 755
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 2:20:02 AM   
IdahoNYer


Posts: 2616
Joined: 9/6/2009
From: NYer living in Boise, ID
Status: offline 		Without a significant fortification line behind the Dniepr, this looks to be a meatgrinder for the Wehrmacht. Are you planning on fighting forward or delaying rapidly west?

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 756
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 8:16:00 AM   
krupp_88mm


Posts: 406
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline 		I say fight forward till mud take your losses, you want that river whats left of it for defense, you need it to prevent him attacking all along the front,, then after mud is over as soon as it looks like your in danger and your forts built over mud will no longer hold begin a fast withdraw west to the mountains hopefully dutring winter when the soviets are stronger and your river will no longer protect you anyway, then spring of 45 you can fight him in heavily favorable terrain in a much shorter line i think you should be able to hold there through 45 since you arrive in good order and later than historical

i think if you withdraw now its too early he will end up at your doorstep in winter and havea chance at fording some of your last line rivers easily

(in reply to IdahoNYer)
Post #: 757
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 4:45:04 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

Without a significant fortification line behind the Dniepr, this looks to be a meatgrinder for the Wehrmacht. Are you planning on fighting forward or delaying rapidly west?


It's hard to build any fortifiactions above level 2 nowadays, even with extensive advance planning, and level 2 forts are just swept away when the reds reach them. It's a meat grinder whatever I do, except withdraw 3 hexes every turn, but it feels too early for that...

(in reply to IdahoNYer)
Post #: 758
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 6:04:59 PM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Those Guard Tank & Mech Corps have an NS of 80 now, so it's not surprising that they make some ground. Guard Inf in a Guards Army reaches 75 and there seems to be quite a few of them.

I hope that the fort & engineer issue is up for discussion in the development team.

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Post #: 759
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 8:06:24 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

I hope that the fort & engineer issue is up for discussion in the development team.


Which issue?

Before the current fort version there was a lot of complaints about 4 or 5 hex level 4 fort belts and how it prevented a war of movement...

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 760
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 8:44:07 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The people demanded a nerf to fort spam, and by God, we delivered!



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Post #: 761
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 8:50:41 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The people demanded a nerf to fort spam, and by God, we delivered!



Might there be a middle ground somewhere...?

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Post #: 762
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 9:03:13 PM   
DTurtle

 

Posts: 443
Joined: 4/26/2010
Status: offline 		Hmm, I seem to recall some people (I'm not naming names ;) ) warning the German players that they would greatly miss those forts in 43-45.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 763
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 9:05:44 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Truthfully, the maginot line stuff prior to 1.05 had to go. It was way over the top. The complaints were justified. But yeah, I'm not entirely thrilled with the results either.

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Post #: 764
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 9:13:41 PM   
Baelfiin


Posts: 2978
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Production turn 164. The extra armaments ar long gone, and it is interesting to note that I am already building up a manpower surplus again. It appears that German armaments production is still below where it should be.






I am in a game mid 43(1.05) and I have allot 250,000 armaments built up and increasing every turn.

The huge drain on armaments comes when you get a units pocketed. This is a very screwed up part of the game that needs to be fixed.

The 1 unit comes back and sucks up allot of manpower and armament pts automaticly. IF you had a chose to switch off or on refit before the next logistic phase this would greatly help you out.

Its a major design issue that needs to be addressed at some point.

If you could rebuild the divisions when you wanted as GHC you could control your armament pts better and moral.

The units come back with sht moral and hog manpower and equipment. I personally want the replasements and equipment going to front line high moral units and not POS units.

Pelton


I was going to bring this exact point up. The auto rebuild "feature" for the germans is bogus. Especially in the late game. Destroyed divisions and SU's should go into a pool that the german player then can select to rebuild at an ap cost similar to the way the russian player builds units.
Check out my defense of the riech AAR tons of guys getting pocketed now, and they are showing up rebuilt the next turn draining manpower that is needed at the front.

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 765
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 9:22:57 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I kind of like that idea, Baelfiin. Or, in the alternative, the ability to dial down TOE much further than just 50%. Maybe all the way to zero.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/14/2011 9:23:43 PM >

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Post #: 766
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 9:34:17 PM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		The commanders report should have a page with next turns reinforcements where you can set mode (refit/ready) and TOE%.
The fix for HQ's refit mode sucks up almost all Soviet manpower on turn 1 - there used to be ~350k left.

I think 50% is a reasonable minimum - it is wartime so mothballing is sort of gamey. But units should send elements to pool if over the set TOE%.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 767
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 9:37:30 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The problem is that even at 50% all those new shells are going to get priority on replacements, Gingerbread, particularly the SUs. It's hard to push replacements to the front, even if set to refit. The replacements will naturally be sucked into the stuff in the rear.



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(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 768
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 9:54:42 PM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Not if you can set them to ready mode. All ready share what is left after refit. Granted, the pool will probably be empty in any case, at least T3 and after, but the front units will get what they will get in the refit segment before the readies get what's left.

The Soviets shells arrive in ready mode except for the reconstituted units. These (re-con) suck up MP real bad if it is in the pool so they tie up men in a unit with lousy experience and to top it up, you have to spend rail cap for a full division for two turns if you want those men some place where they will be useful, like digging west of Moscow. If they arrived in ready mode, you'd pay far less to get it to a spot say, just east of Moscow to train.

As for SUs, you get something like 3 MC regiments total, or am I wrong here? You can build more, but that is by choice and should be budgeted.

I actually had good results from disbanding ~10 divisions with MR/Exp in low 30's. Almost 100k MP extra available in the refit phase the turn after.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 769
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 10:55:39 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I agree. The re-built unit mechanism is a tad off. Reminds me of TOAW were it often seemed as though most replacements were going to rebuild units that wouldn't arrive for a long time. Seemed like a waste. In WitE, units arrive at 80-100% TOE shortly after being destroyed is also unrealistic. It often took months (even for the Russians) to build a Division back up to strength. On the German side, not all divisions were re-built. Also, I though the manual stated that re-built units were supposed to return at minimal/depleted TOE levels. As the Russians, I sometimes (but rarely) see units arrive in a depleted state. I never could figure out why they arrive like that but most other units don't...

All-in-all, yes, some control or further development of the re-built unit mechanism would be nice.

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 770
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 11:19:37 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		We've had the discussion about minimum TOE% levels on the tester forum, probably several times. The official answer always was that what in game terms would be lower than 50% TOE percentages were due to the effects of the war and not due to deliberate decisions. If you dial TOE%'s down to below 50%, you might as well disband the unit in most cases as it isn't going to be effective.

As to new units refitting: the easiest way to prevent that is not allowing your units to be pocketed. I agree that it is probably annoying if refitting reconstituted units drain your manpower/equipment pool, but they're doing so because you allowed them to be destroyed in the first place.

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(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 771
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 11:33:33 PM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Allowing? So I should refuse to play unless the Axis player agrees to not play the Lvov opening?? Nor may he do the Bialystok pocket???

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 772
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 11:47:03 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		We're talking about Axis units here, the Soviets generally have the manpower (but maybe not the armaments) to get their shells back in shape. There's no reason to lose a German division before late 1942.

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Post #: 773
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 11:53:37 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As to new units refitting: the easiest way to prevent that is not allowing your units to be pocketed. I agree that it is probably annoying if refitting reconstituted units drain your manpower/equipment pool, but they're doing so because you allowed them to be destroyed in the first place.


???

This is a game mechanic which has no real reflection on what happened historically. Units were not built or re-built instantaneously. It took months. Units were pocketed, destroyed, and gradually re-built. The simple solution is to have re-built units arrive in unready/depleted status with less than 33% TOE.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 774
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/14/2011 11:57:29 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		It will take several months to get a unit back in shape in the game too. Just because a unit is at 100% TOE doesn't mean it's any good in combat.

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Post #: 775
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/15/2011 12:09:22 AM   
gingerbread


Posts: 2994
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		We are not talking exclusively of Axis units however, the rule that re-con units arrive in refit mode is looking at it from an Axis perspective only.

As to Soviets having enough manpower, that was before the HQ, AB & SU refit mode fix. As I wrote some posts above, with that fix the active manpower pool at start (post logistic phase) has dropped from ~350k to 0 (+you get whatever men there were in the Arm units that rallied and then disbanded to reorganize as an Arm Brigade).

I realize that adding extra functionality to the CR is beyond WitE, but changing default mode for re-con Soviets should be eminently possible. Just a 'if Soviet then set mode to ready' when the unit to be reconstituted is queued in the reinforcement list. In fact, there is already a function to set mode to refit, so all that needs to be added is a nationality test and a different mode for Soviets.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 776
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/15/2011 12:18:04 AM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		gingerbread, the problem of reconstituted units emptying the manpower pool without anything you can do about it is a purely German problem, because reconstituted Soviet units appear as shells and are not frozen in refit mode for several turns, unlike their German counterparts.

I agree that it isn't an ideal system, far from it, but with good unit management the instances where you as the Germans have so many destroyed units around that your frontline units basically don't get new equipment should be rare.

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Post #: 777
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/15/2011 12:19:47 AM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

It will take several months to get a unit back in shape in the game too. Just because a unit is at 100% TOE doesn't mean it's any good in combat.


You're talking about training a re-built unit. I'm talking about the actual strength of a new unit. BOTH would usually take several months. The reason being, first rate equipment, officers, etc, are typically designated for the front line. Second rate and obselete equipment was designated for new units in training. Nor did a newly raised unit need a full set of brand new equipment right away until it was up to strength and reasonably trained, both of which took months to attain.

My general point being that it takes months to build a unit up to strength, as well as training. The game does indeed reflect the training aspect, but not the gradual strength build-up. A new unit might get as much as a 1/3rd cadre from another unit or training school, but it typically took some time to build up the strength to 100%.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 778
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/15/2011 12:28:39 AM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		Unless the reconstituted units are the only units on refit, it will take time for their strength to increase to ~100% TOE. Only when they're the only units on refit will they tend to attract most if not all of the replacements/new equipment being produced.

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(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 779
RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) - 12/15/2011 12:29:35 AM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
because reconstituted Soviet units appear as shells and are not frozen in refit mode for several turns, unlike their German counterparts.


Really? Perhaps there's a bug then? I'm playing a game currently as the Russians, and (free) re-built units are appearing at around 85% TOE for Rifle Divisions, and 30% (Tank) TOE for Tank Brigades (manpower elements within the units are usually at or near 100%). Both arrive in refit mode, and with morale in the mid-low 30s. Normal reinforcement units appear with anything from 15-100% TOE, in ready or depleted status and with morale in the low-mid 40s. A handfull arrive with 100% and 50 or 60 morale.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 780
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