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Short Map PI Scen - 4/28/2011 7:11:00 PM

JWE

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Been nattering with Uncle Don on some PI things and he suggested a short map scenario with a May 1, '42 opening day might be interesting. It would give Dougie a lot of the things he asked for and make the PI into a real live, honest to gosh, campaign. It will be based on the detailed OOB and delivery schedule research done by Don Bowen.

This will be a CPX-style scenario. It will exist in a vacuum and is not subject to 'what if' constraints. It will be detailed in a manner similar to the Babes-style DEI scenario.

Any interest from the community?

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/28/2011 7:23:56 PM

Terminus

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Roll it out, boys. Always wanted to see if extra Allied stuff would make a difference.

I suspect it won't, long-term, but in a non-campaign scenario, the Japs might "lose".

< Message edited by Terminus -- 4/28/2011 7:24:41 PM >

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/28/2011 7:39:23 PM

berto

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*

< Message edited by berto -- 7/1/2011 12:33:17 PM >

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/28/2011 7:40:23 PM

oldman45

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I have always wondered if a "defend the beaches" plan had been used would it have made a difference. I would give that scenerio a shot.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/28/2011 7:49:24 PM

JWE

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Quick background; this is something for Don Bowen. It's a complete wash on the rest of the world, so Japan gets what it got and there's no WPO BB-TF steaming into town. It's just the Dec 7 scenario advanced a bit in time so that the PI gets fleshed out a bit more. Might pull in one particular J-Div, but everything else happens as it happened, only a few months later, so no KB, no 38th Div from HK, none of that stuff. It's a CPX only.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/28/2011 9:51:30 PM

mikkey

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short map scenario sounds good

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/28/2011 11:35:31 PM

Don Bowen

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Let's start with some (sorta wierd) data requests.

I have some old references (notes taken from web sites that no longer are there) that a full Armored Regiment was to be available in the Philippines. It would include the two light tank battalions and ordnance company already there, a medium battalion (one of the 75x series, possibly 754th), and some recon assets (probably M3 armored car based, maybe company strength). Anyone have anything on this?

It is well known that MacArthur was planning to disband the 34th US and 45th PS Infantry Regiments and use the troops to fill out other units. But what about other units? The Philippine Division had 3 light FA Battalions, all Scout, and two more Scout FA Battalions as corps troops (one light, one medium). As a full Triangular Division it should have 3 light and one medium. Enroute were six US light and two US medium, with one of the lights earmarked for the Philippine Division. Which would, by the way, become the 12th Infantry Division. All told that's three medium and 10 light. Three light and one medium for the 12th Division, with at least one scout battalion replaced by US. Just a guess, but I suspect the intent was to have two US Regimental Combat Teams and one scout. That would be the 31st, 161st, and 57th Infantry with two US and one Scout FA Battalion. Plus one medium battalion, either US or Scout, for the Division. Long preamble but the question is whether or not other Scout FA units were to be disbanded.

A cavalry recon troop and additional MPs were enroute to fill out the 12th Division's TOE. But no combat engineers so it looks like the 14th PS would remain (it had already been converted from a regiment to a battalion).

A whole different question would be the Coast Artillery. Seven eight inch and 24 155mm guns had already been provided for CD installations in Southern Luzon and the Visayas. Construction had already started on at least one site. No indication of the units that were to man these guns and no indication of additional CD units enroute. 59th and 60th pretty busy in Manila Bay, 91st and 92nd in smaller Manila and Subic Bay forts. 1st and 2nd PA CD regiments? Or other new units?

Lots of data on planned Philippine Army militia units - a full corps in each Military District plus army troops. I think 6 AA regiments were planned and the 1-troop Cavalry regiment was to be filled out and possibly mechanized. Not much on the time table. All units to be formed by Independence...

And of course, the Off Shore Patrol would probably have added the 10 Q-boats currently under construction. MacArthur's HQ promised all in service by the end of March, 1942 but Dougie was never bothered much by reality.

Any additional data welcome.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/28/2011 11:48:12 PM

vettim89

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Well to state the obvious, the FS and BS (A-24) en route to PI on 7 Dec 1941 would be there. Also the Arty assets in the Pensacola convoy.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/29/2011 5:36:46 AM

DOCUP

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Sounds like fun go with it.

doc

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/29/2011 3:41:02 PM

JWE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Let's start with some (sorta wierd) data requests.

What I�m thinking as to the arty, is to give 1st and 2nd Bns of the 147th and consolidated 1st and 2nd Bns of the 218th to 12th Div as DivArty. Consolidate the 218th because that�s just what happened when it finally got to OZ and became 218th FA Bn (ex-2/218). 1/218 was redisignated 2/204 (eventually 989th FA Bn). So HHQ 218 reorganizes along with HHQ 147 to become HHQ 12 DivArty. All that�s wanted is a PS arty Bn. I would go with the 1/23rd , since HHB, and Bty A were units long active and B/C were mobilized early. That would also allow HHQ and 1st and 2nd Bn 24th PSFAR to either form in Corps group, or be disbanded and used as stiffeners. I wouldn�t break up 86th Med Bn. It had mobile 155mm Guns, and I would darn sure want them around in Corps Arty. That leaves 2/138th, 1/148th, and 2/131st so they would make a nice little pocket Arty Brig (along with the 86th) for Corps.

218th ought to go into DivArty, since it was part of 40th Div, along with 161st IR. It�s just a piece of bookkeeping, but I like the family that plays together stays together approach. Only real question is whether it�s the two Bns of the 147th or two of the odd ones. Thoughts?

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/29/2011 4:07:52 PM

Don Bowen

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Found the intended troops for the South Luzon/Visayas coast defense forces. Tthe 1st and 2nd Philippine Army Coast Defense Regiments, in training at Corregidor and Grande Island when war began. Kind of obvious I guess, but they might have been intended to relieve US or Scout units upon independence.

This leaves the Manila and Subic Bay forts with the 59th, 60th, 91st and 92nd (US and Scout) regiments. The 1st/2nd Philippine would probably be broken up into battery sized units to man the seven 8inch and 24 155mm guns at various locations. Other than the straits between Luzon and Mindoro, no data (yet) on the locations.

The Philippine Army had a long term plan for six AA Regiments and equipment for the first was in storage at US Army Depots as of 12/7. Awaiting formation and training of the Philippine unit, I suppose. This equipment was historically used to form the 515th AA.

Long term (1946) plans were for a Regular Division cadre and three militia divisions per military district. Also appropriate corps troops. Reading between the lines I believe the majority of these would be on Luzon. Corps Artillery, engineers mostly. Little indication of mechanized units. The single (horse) cavalry regiment was still en cadre (only one troop, used for parades) and M3 armored cars were in short supply - much less tanks.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/29/2011 4:54:09 PM

JWE

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Yes, think that sums up the CA nicely. Like the idea of battery sized units. Some of the actual CA units with 155 guns were organized into 'roving' batteries in Bataan. So some of the CA populates the fixed installations, some others are able to take their GPFs on-the-road. Okey dokey.

Hard to know what to do with militia. Think that even moving opening day up a bit wouldn't have much impact. Moving opening day only gets you two training cycles for the regular forces, and given that equipment still arrives in drips and drabs, that's not much. If the militia was to be formed on the standard model, it would be cadred by discharged reservists, but in the time frame we're talking about, the pressure of mobilization would mean there wouldn't be any 'excess to requirements' available to cadre these guys (at least not if I was AG, but then Dougie marched to a different drummer).

What I might do with the militia thing is perhaps flesh out the Constabulary. It was locally organized and could have accepted a certain amount of influx. But generally, I would think of the militia as nascent guerillas. But stop me if you have other thoughts!

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/29/2011 5:10:13 PM

Don Bowen

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How's this for a Philippine Army OOB. Not much different from the 12/7 one, just units fully filled out.

Philippine Regular Army.
1st Division: 1st and 2nd Infantry Regiments, 1st Artillery Regiment, 1st Engineer Regiment on Luzon. 3rd Infantry Regiment on Mindanao.
1st Cavalry Regiment (horse) on Luzon. Bit of a stretch this.
201st and 202nd Construction Engineer Battalions, both on Luzon
301st and 302nd FA Regiment s, each with 24 75mm SPM.
AA Assets (equal to one regiment) spread among base forces at Manila and PAAC bases of Cabanatuan and Batangas.

Note: I believe the intended numbering sequence for Philippine Army Units was:
Single Digit Units: Regular Army Divisional (1st Infantry, 2nd Infantry, etc).
Two or Three Digits beginning with 1-10: Militia Units where the first one/two digits is the Military District.
Three Digit numbers in the 200 range: Corps level units.
Three Digit numbers in the 300 range: Army level units.

The Constabulary was not part of the Army during peacetime and had its own numbering sequence � sequential numbers with �Constabulary� or �PC� plus unit size. i.e. 2nd Constabulary Regiment.

Philippine Constabulary.
2nd Division: 1st, 2nd, and 4th Constabulary Regiments on Luzon, 3rd Constabulary on Mindanao. No artillery or engineers.
Cebu (perhaps 5th) Constabulary Regiment on Cebu.
Independent Company Sized Units at: Aparri, Vigan, Baguio, Baler, Subic Bay, Palawan, Mindoro, Panay (2), Leyte, Jolo Island. Others if we want to dig.

Philippine Militia.
Full Division from each Military District. 3 Infantry Regiments, artillery regiment (24 75mm/2.95 inch), engineer regiment. Probably 2.95 in the Visayas/Mindanao with maybe a battalion in the mountainous areas held by the 11th Division.

Just for fun, maybe 34th and 44th Infantry Regiments at half strength at Manila. These would be the first units of the second militia divisions and I�m guessing the ones around the capital would be formed first. Could take this further and form battalions or regiments at Baguio (summer capital) and Mindanao.

Off Shore Patrol of 13 boats � existing 3 plus the 10 under construction with the engines provided by vosper. 14 more in early construction, completions at 2 month starting in June or July (???).

PAAC.
Assuming the PAAC could build up in time to handle them, all the P-35 and A-27 of the USAAC would be surplus to requirements by early 1942. Also assume the B-18 would be removed from first line and moved to support (transport) roles with USAAC. This would release the few remaining B-12s which could join the couple already with the PAAC.

Two 12-aircraft fighter squadrons with P-35, one with P-26.
A Bomber Squadron with six B-10/B-12.
An Attack Squadron with 9 A-27.
Existing Recon squadrons.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/29/2011 6:23:19 PM

Buck Beach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

How's this for a Philippine Army OOB. Not much different from the 12/7 one, just units fully filled out.

Philippine Regular Army.
1st Division: 1st and 2nd Infantry Regiments, 1st Artillery Regiment, 1st Engineer Regiment on Luzon. 3rd Infantry Regiment on Mindanao.
1st Cavalry Regiment (horse) on Luzon. Bit of a stretch this.
201st and 202nd Construction Engineer Battalions, both on Luzon
301st and 302nd FA Regiment s, each with 24 75mm SPM.
AA Assets (equal to one regiment) spread among base forces at Manila and PAAC bases of Cabanatuan and Batangas.

Note: I believe the intended numbering sequence for Philippine Army Units was:
Single Digit Units: Regular Army Divisional (1st Infantry, 2nd Infantry, etc).
Two or Three Digits beginning with 1-10: Militia Units where the first one/two digits is the Military District.
Three Digit numbers in the 200 range: Corps level units.
Three Digit numbers in the 300 range: Army level units.

The Constabulary was not part of the Army during peacetime and had its own numbering sequence � sequential numbers with �Constabulary� or �PC� plus unit size. i.e. 2nd Constabulary Regiment.

Philippine Constabulary.
2nd Division: 1st, 2nd, and 4th Constabulary Regiments on Luzon, 3rd Constabulary on Mindanao. No artillery or engineers.
Cebu (perhaps 5th) Constabulary Regiment on Cebu.
Independent Company Sized Units at: Aparri, Vigan, Baguio, Baler, Subic Bay, Palawan, Mindoro, Panay (2), Leyte, Jolo Island. Others if we want to dig.

Philippine Militia.
Full Division from each Military District. 3 Infantry Regiments, artillery regiment (24 75mm/2.95 inch), engineer regiment. Probably 2.95 in the Visayas/Mindanao with maybe a battalion in the mountainous areas held by the 11th Division.

Just for fun, maybe 34th and 44th Infantry Regiments at half strength at Manila. These would be the first units of the second militia divisions and I�m guessing the ones around the capital would be formed first. Could take this further and form battalions or regiments at Baguio (summer capital) and Mindanao.

Off Shore Patrol of 13 boats � existing 3 plus the 10 under construction with the engines provided by vosper. 14 more in early construction, completions at 2 month starting in June or July (???).

PAAC.
Assuming the PAAC could build up in time to handle them, all the P-35 and A-27 of the USAAC would be surplus to requirements by early 1942. Also assume the B-18 would be removed from first line and moved to support (transport) roles with USAAC. This would release the few remaining B-12s which could join the couple already with the PAAC.

Two 12-aircraft fighter squadrons with P-35, one with P-26.
A Bomber Squadron with six B-10/B-12.
An Attack Squadron with 9 A-27.
Existing Recon squadrons.

Can and will this scenario's units port to the DBB? How about the DEI scenario's?

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/29/2011 6:28:06 PM

JWE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
Can and will this scenario's units port to the DBB? How about the DEI scenario's?

Nope, they cannot port to the DBB scenarios. But they will use the nifty code things. These are individual and seperate CPX-style scenarios.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/29/2011 6:33:59 PM

Buck Beach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
Can and will this scenario's units port to the DBB? How about the DEI scenario's?

Nope, they cannot port to the DBB scenarios. But they will use the nifty code things. These are individual and seperate CPX-style scenarios.

Any thoughts about configuring and including the units in future DBB upgrades?

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/29/2011 10:24:53 PM

Don Bowen

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Most of the additional units should not be in any historical scenario. They represent future plans that were aborted when war began. In fact, I'm backing away from the idea of adding the 34/44 regiments and any other "2nd series" militia units.

The cavalry regiment never got beyond one ceremonial troop. The additional CD units never came to be and the two-dozen 155mm were used to equip the 301st FA. In my "assumptions" I had them installed in CD Batteries and allocated th 75mm SPM to the 301st and (made up) 302nd FA. Historically, of course, these guns went to the Provisional FA Group, which would not exist in the 5/42 mod.

Only things that might be worth while would be the PC companies but they were too small and weak to be very useful.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/29/2011 11:26:19 PM

Buck Beach

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Thank you.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/30/2011 3:22:00 AM

TIMJOT

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You guys really stole my thunder. Been planning my own MacAurthur Plan "what if" for sometime now. Tentatively named "Operation Plum". The premise being what if FDR had listen to his military advisors Stimson, Stark and Marshall to NOT impose a oil embargo in response to Japan's incursion to indo-china. Instead assume a Quid Quo Pro approach and counter Japanese troops in indo china with US troops in the PI. This delays the inevitable esclating tensions until April 42.

I envisioned my scenerio to be a one year full map scenerio with the Dutch and Brits getting there planned reinforcements as well. The Challenge for the Japanese player to see if he can match historical success and for the Allied player to stop or significantly blunt the Japanese advance with the historically planned build up.

Just wondering the rational on doing this scenerio in a vacuum and not a full map and if there is any chance you would reconsider since you guys a much better at this sort of thing and it would take me forever to do it myself. Either way I will be glad to help.

Regards

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/30/2011 4:29:59 AM

TIMJOT

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OK I can help here. Got the officer in charge of the "Inland Seas Denfence Project" Col. Mellnik's auto-biography. He list many of the exact locations. Roughly twelve 2 x 155 CD batteries covering seven major straits.

Verde Passage- Cape Santiago Battery (Batangas hex 79/78), Bagalay Battery ( Calapan hex 78/79)

San Bernidino Strait- Bulusan Battery ( Legaspi hex 82/82), Dap Dap Battery ( Samar hex 82/83)

Bohol Strait - Panlagao Is. Battery ( Cebu hex 80/86)

Guiramas Strait - Panay Battery ( Illio hex 79/84)

Suriagao Strait- Sariagao Battery ( Sariagao hex 81/88), (Dinigat Battery hex 81/87)

Mindanao Strait- Negros Battery ( Oroquita hex 78/88 ), Mindanao Battery ( Dumaguete hex 78/86), Siquitor Is. Battery (Siquitor hex 78/87)

Tablas Trait- requires new locations Duyagan Point hex 71/81 and Potol Point hex 79/82 9 ( one 2x155 batteries each)

Had to make some educated assumptions for the Mindanao and Tablas strait locations. Also Mellnik only confirms one of the 8" CD locations ( Cape Santiago Batangas), but we can assume there would be one 8" CD for each of the seven straits. They should be fixed CDs maned as mentioned above by the 1st and 2nd PA CD Rgts.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/30/2011 5:50:46 AM

Don Bowen

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Good Stuff! Thanks.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/30/2011 3:17:28 PM

JWE

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Ok, here's the map space. It uses the Babes new art and pwhexe. Don't worry about the red dots in the PI, we'll clean those up, this was just a quickie off the DEI scen. The odd shape is because wanted to get Saigon in there as a secondary Main Base for Japan and Darwin as a secondary Main Base for the Allies. It will cause some minor ahistorical discontinuities with respect to Borneo and Celebes, but we'll try to minimize them. It does allow for 38th JDiv to become available, along with all the arty goodies, in HK, after the HK op. All the rest of the additional J units that historically shipped from the HI and elsewhere will, instead, come available at Babeldaob or Takao, in accord with historical readiness dates and the accelerated start date of the scenario (i.e., some historically late arriving units will be ready to boogie on the new opening day).

Attachment (1)

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/30/2011 3:45:20 PM

JWE

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Because this is a short map and limited unit scenario, we plan to use the DEI scen paradigm: Division echelon as an HQ, with operational units broken down to Regiment, RCT, Arty Bn, etc.. where practicable. I think it best to have the PI divisions represented as divisions (they aren't all that big to begin with) and where they are broken down into regiments, allow those to recombine. The HQ echelon for PI forces would then be a corps equivalent. So there would be a degree of 'thickness' for the PA (but only in the divisions), but this would be compensated by morale and experience levels. US/PS/JA units will have the Div as HQ echelon and compensate for their 'thinness' by appropriate morale and experience levels. Needless to say, the 4th Marines are able to get themselves organized and will be very, very bad dudes

.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/30/2011 4:13:53 PM

Terminus

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Was there ever any serious planning to send over an additional US Army division before the war began? I would suspect not, given that MacArthur would prefer that "his" Phillippinos carry the load themselves.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/30/2011 4:24:31 PM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Was there ever any serious planning to send over an additional US Army division before the war began? I would suspect not, given that MacArthur would prefer that "his" Phillippinos carry the load themselves.

MacArthur was offered the 41st Division but it was declined for a number of reasons. Limitations in shipping was a major one. And MacArthur felt that he had enough manpower in the Philippine Army and mostly need equipment for them.

The only units sent from US were those to build the Philippine Division up to TOE and to form an Army level artillery group. One of the units sent was to be broken up for filler personel and another was to replace a Scout regiment broken up for the same reason. They rapidly expanding US Army did not have enough trained personnel to fill out the Philippine Division and breaking up an entire existing unit was the only way to get the needed troops. The scouts were limited by law to 12,000 and there was no political will to expand that number while the Philippine Army was in need of every available man.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 4/30/2011 4:44:51 PM

derhexer

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quote:

Been nattering with Uncle Don on some PI things and he suggested a short map scenario with a May 1, '42 opening day might be interesting. It would give Dougie a lot of the things he asked for and make the PI into a real live, honest to gosh, campaign. It will be based on the detailed OOB and delivery schedule research done by Don Bowen.

This will be a CPX-style scenario. It will exist in a vacuum and is not subject to 'what if' constraints. It will be detailed in a manner similar to the Babes-style DEI scenario.

Any interest from the community?

Sure, I'd love to play MacArthur and see if he could actually have stopped the Japanese.

Chris
(just a pawn on the great chessboard of life)

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 1:46:30 AM

TIMJOT

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quote:

MacArthur was offered the 41st Division but it was declined for a number of reasons. Limitations in shipping was a major one. And MacArthur felt that he had enough manpower in the Philippine Army and mostly need equipment for them.

Interesting tidbit, The main reason Mac refused the 41st Div was that it would require something like 150,000 shipping tons to transport, which would seriously hamper getting desperately need equipment to the islands. However according to Glen Wiliford the Army transport staff came up with a unique plan to use the newly required Large APs West Point, Mount Vernon and Wakefield along with the Coolidge for a one time special voyage to get the 41st the PI in September 41. Apparently Mac was never informed of their availabilty and so declined. It was only after Mac declined the 41st Div that those very same APs were offered to the Brits to transport the UK 18th Div to the Mideast. Strange how a simple yes or know changes the fate of thousands on men. Mac declines the 41st Div , the 18th Div ends up in captivity, 41st is most likely spared that very fate.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 3:43:54 AM

TIMJOT

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quote:

Assuming the PAAC could build up in time to handle them, all the P-35 and A-27 of the USAAC would be surplus to requirements by early 1942. Also assume the B-18 would be removed from first line and moved to support (transport) roles with USAAC. This would release the few remaining B-12s which could join the couple already with the PAAC.

Two 12-aircraft fighter squadrons with P-35, one with P-26.
A Bomber Squadron with six B-10/B-12.
An Attack Squadron with 9 A-27.
Existing Recon squadrons

Any reason to think that the B-18's would not have been released to the PAAC as well?

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 4:29:28 AM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

quote:

Assuming the PAAC could build up in time to handle them, all the P-35 and A-27 of the USAAC would be surplus to requirements by early 1942. Also assume the B-18 would be removed from first line and moved to support (transport) roles with USAAC. This would release the few remaining B-12s which could join the couple already with the PAAC.

Two 12-aircraft fighter squadrons with P-35, one with P-26.
A Bomber Squadron with six B-10/B-12.
An Attack Squadron with 9 A-27.
Existing Recon squadrons

Any reason to think that the B-18's would not have been released to the PAAC as well?

I simply don't think they could take too many additional aircraft. Just my gut feel, but the P-35 and A-27 seem easier to absorb. Also the B-18 would still be useful to the USAAC as transports. But then that is true to a certain extent of the A-27, which were in use as air taxis and admin aircraft.

I've never seen anything on turnover plans, other than general statements about passing aircraft on to the PAAC...

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 5/1/2011 4:30:08 AM >

(in reply to TIMJOT)

Post #: 29

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 1:37:32 PM

JWE

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

Speaking of A-27s, there isn't one in the airplane database. I can jigger one up from the SNJ, but the picture is just too pretty for an operational plane. Maybe somebody could do up something in PAAC livery as a replacement plane side?

There's only a couple training sqdns using the Texan in San Diego, so it won't hurt to substitute a piece of art for this scenario.

There's some nice PAAC pictures (of P-26s, but what the hey) at
http://pinoyhistory.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=photos&thread=840&page=3

< Message edited by JWE -- 5/1/2011 1:39:31 PM >

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(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 30