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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 3:27:59 PM

Blackhorse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Philippine Constabulary.
2nd Division: 1st, 2nd, and 4th Constabulary Regiments on Luzon, 3rd Constabulary on Mindanao. No artillery or engineers.
Cebu (perhaps 5th) Constabulary Regiment on Cebu.
Independent Company Sized Units at: Aparri, Vigan, Baguio, Baler, Subic Bay, Palawan, Mindoro, Panay (2), Leyte, Jolo Island. Others if we want to dig.

Don,

Excellent work, as always. Two questions:

1. What about the "Heavy Weapons" Regiment of the 2nd Constabulary Division? IIRC, it had engineers and the old pack howitzers.

2. Are the independent companies in addition to the Constabulary Regt's, or were the Reg'ts just military HQs for the scattered police garrisons across the islands? I did not find a clear answer when researching AE, so AE shows the Constabulary consolidated into reg'ts to avoid double-counting.

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(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 31

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 4:17:18 PM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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Other than the fact that it existed, I know nothing of the Constabulary Heavy Weapons unit. The Constabulary did have crew served weapons attached to various formations and used in a couple of the recorded engagements against bandits or moros. Sorry, all I got.

As for the Constabulary Companies, that was just speculation...

The pre-war distribution of the constabulary was primarily in company and smaller units in Philippine towns. Larger units were in major cities, bases, and trouble spots. I wish I had a good history of the Constabulary but mostly I just have references here and there. Trotta, for instance, mentions the major operation against the Moros in Jolo but gives no details. In fact, most of what he gives are statistical totals or problems with corruption. Something like 25% of the Constabulary Officers were court martialed for some reason or other. Mostly corruption.

I suspect that there was a higher organization, such that detachments or companies in local areas were part of a battalion located near by, etc. It is know that many of the local detachments were not incorporated into the Regimental sized units, but that may be because they were cut off by the Japanese advance.

I think I'm going to see what Google and I can find out about the Constabulary organization.

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Post #: 32

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 4:23:23 PM

JWE

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Well, to get the Philippines fleshed out, looks like we�re going to have to define a standard organization for all sorts of PA elements. First went to the National Defense Act of 1935 to see what was there. Not a lot in terms of internal organization, but Dougie, as Field Marshal, had considerable influence in an �advisory� capacity.

Dougie was very familiar with the organization and equipment tables of the US Army in the 20s and 30s. Notwithstanding, quite a few high ranking Filipino officers were US trained, either at West Point, or in one of the several schools. They should have had an equal familiarity with US practice.

So, I�m going to go out on a limb, and propose a PA structural organization based on a hybrid of the standard USA T/O of 6/23/28 and T/O-7 of 10/1/40, giving particular note to the lack of certain weapons in the inventory, the calls for additional shipments of certain weapons, and lack of calls for certain others. I think this reasonable given the backgrounds and proclivities of the participants in the planning process, but there is obviously a lot of room for error and misapplication.

If anyone has anything better, I surely would like hearing about it.

The basic PA Company was much smaller than its US equivalent. I have a fair take on its rifle components, but the weapons sections are a blank slate. It�s probable that they had an M1917 MG team or two, but can�t find anything on 60mm mortars. If they didn�t have any, it might be that the MG teams were in a Weaps Section in Company HQ, rather than in a separate Weaps Pltn. Again, any info would be appreciated. It would be important in defining the PA Inf Squad.

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Post #: 33

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 4:24:30 PM

JWE

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And here's the breakdown. Basically, the company looks like this.

Company HQ (2 Officers, 12 Men)
Rifle Platoon (1 Officer, 40 Men)
Rifle Platoon (1 Officer, 40 Men)
Rifle Platoon (1 Officer, 40 Men)
- Platoon Headquarters (1 Officer, 5 Men)
- - - 1 � 2nd Lt.
- - - 1 � Platoon Sergeant
- - - 4 � Private/Private First Class (Messengers)
- - - - 2 � Pistols
- - - - 4 � Rifles
- Automatic Rifle Squad (8 Men)
- - - 1 � Sergeant
- - - 1 � Corporal
- - - 6 � Private/Private First Class
- - - - 2 � Automatic Riflemen
- - - - 2 � Assistant Automatic Riflemen
- - - - 2 � Ammunition Carriers
- - - - 2 � Pistols (.45 Cal)
- - - - 2 � BAR M1918A2
- - - - 4 � Rifles
- Rifle Section (26 Men)
- - Section HQ (2 Men)
- - - 1 � Sergeant (Section Leader)
- - - 1 � Corporal (Section Guide)
- - - - 2 � Rifles
- - Rifle Squad (8 Men)
- - - 1 � Corporal
- - - 7 � Private/Private First Class
- - - - 8 � Rifles
- - Rifle Squad (8 Men � As above)
- - Rifle Squad (8 Men � As above)
Weapons Platoon (1 Officer, ?? Men)
- Platoon Headquarters (1 Officer, 4 Men)
- Light Machine Gun Section (13 Men)
- - Section Headquarters (3 Men)
- - - 1 � Sergeant
- - - 2 � Private/Private First Class
- - - - 2 � Messenger
- - - - 1 � Pistol (.45 Cal)
- - - - 2 � Rifles
- - Machine Gun Squad (5 Men)
- - - 1 � Corporal
- - - 4 � Private/Private First Class
- - - - 1 � Gunner
- - - - 1 � Assistant Gunner
- - - - 2 � Ammunition Carriers
- - - - 1 � 30Cal Light Machine Gun M1919A4
- - - - 5 � Pistols (.45 Cal)
- - Machine Gun Squad (5 Men � As Above)
- Mortar Section (?? Men)

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Post #: 34

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 6:23:35 PM

Don Bowen

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I have a copy of Rice and Salt by John Hugh McGee. It is the war memoir of a company commander of one of the Scout Companies in Zamboanga. He identifies them as "the Moro" company and "the Christian" company. Most of the menoir is personal data and a lot of detail about the individual soldiers in his company. Later he became an advisor to the 1st Battalion/101st PA.

One very interesting comment was that his company included 84 men and was full with a waiting list. I assume this is enlisted men, not including officers.

The administrative group of company headquarters included "First Sergeant Ramos, Corporal Rutom, and Private Lao". Also "Private Gumbahali. son of a former Scout, was company bugler". "In the Philippine Scouts, one noncommissioned officer was both mess and supply sergeant. Sergeant Federico...", "our company mechanic, a Lanao Moro named Magao", "company first cook was Mala".

So, assuming us of temporary KPs for cooks assistants, I'd consider the compnay HQ to be 7 enlisted.

He then goes on to list sergeants and some other soldiers from the 1st and 2nd platoons. No mention of a 3rd platoon nor a weapons platoon.

The American post complement of Pettit Barracks was 12 officers and 3 enlisted. This for a reduced battalion HQ and two companies. McGee mentions a number of US officers by name but does not detail their assignments. No mention of platoon officers or company exec (at least on a casual rescan of a book I first read last millennia).

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Post #: 35

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 6:32:40 PM

Mac Linehan

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From: Denver Colorado
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Philippine Constabulary.
2nd Division: 1st, 2nd, and 4th Constabulary Regiments on Luzon, 3rd Constabulary on Mindanao. No artillery or engineers.
Cebu (perhaps 5th) Constabulary Regiment on Cebu.
Independent Company Sized Units at: Aparri, Vigan, Baguio, Baler, Subic Bay, Palawan, Mindoro, Panay (2), Leyte, Jolo Island. Others if we want to dig.

Don,

Excellent work, as always. Two questions:

1. What about the "Heavy Weapons" Regiment of the 2nd Constabulary Division? IIRC, it had engineers and the old pack howitzers.

2. Are the independent companies in addition to the Constabulary Regt's, or were the Reg'ts just military HQs for the scattered police garrisons across the islands? I did not find a clear answer when researching AE, so AE shows the Constabulary consolidated into reg'ts to avoid double-counting.

Don - Babes Team;

I would expect nothing but the best in research and quality - your trade mark.

Mac

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Post #: 36

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 7:38:06 PM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I have a copy of Rice and Salt by John Hugh McGee. It is the war memoir of a company commander of one of the Scout Companies in Zamboanga. He identifies them as "the Moro" company and "the Christian" company.

Most of the menoir is personal data and a lot of detail about the individual soldiers in his company. Later he became an advisor to the 1st Battalion/101st PA.

One very interesting comment was that his company included 84 men and was full with a waiting list. I assume this is enlisted men, not including officers.

The administrative group of company headquarters included "First Sergeant Ramos, Corporal Rutom, and Private Lao". Also "Private Gumbahali. son of a former Scout, was company bugler". "In the Philippine Scouts, one noncommissioned officer was both mess and supply sergeant. Sergeant Federico...", "our company mechanic, a Lanao Moro named Magao", "company first cook was Mala".

So, assuming us of temporary KPs for cooks assistants, I'd consider the compnay HQ to be 7 enlisted.

He then goes on to list sergeants and some other soldiers from the 1st and 2nd platoons. No mention of a 3rd platoon nor a weapons platoon.

The American post complement of Pettit Barracks was 12 officers and 3 enlisted. This for a reduced battalion HQ and two companies. McGee mentions a number of US officers by name but does not detail their assignments. No mention of platoon officers or company exec (at least on a casual rescan of a book I first read last millennia).

As you, I am sure, are aware - the US Army green book identifies the companies at Zamboanga as C & E, of the 43rd Regt.

I opted to name them 43rd PS Inf Det and modeled them after 3/45 PS Infantry Bn minus the 37mm AT and Howitzers and start them 75% disabled at Zamboanga.

< Message edited by treespider -- 5/1/2011 7:42:24 PM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/1/2011 7:42:15 PM

Don Bowen

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What little TOE Trotta has is up on Leo's site:
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/013_usa/40_org/misc/id_philippine.html

Also some interesting stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Constabulary

And some further observations:
The 1st and 2nd PC Regiments were assigned duty in Manila and conducted the roundup of enemy aliens between December 8th and the withdrawal into Bataan. At this time, there were still PC units operating in North Luzon. Some of these had been cut off prior to the formation of the 4th PC Regiment in late December. A number of books include references to individual PC units, without any mention of size or affiliation. An entact PC company joined Troop C/26th PS at Baguio. Another was at Aparri when it was attacked.

War memoirs and guerilla reports mention men who were Philippine Constables at Puerto Princessa, Davao, Legaspi, and lots of others.

Beginning to think outlaying local units maybe were independent - which was my original wild-ass guess.

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 5/1/2011 8:37:52 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/2/2011 3:54:57 PM

TIMJOT

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Joined: 4/30/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

And here's the breakdown. Basically, the company looks like this.

Company HQ (2 Officers, 12 Men)
Rifle Platoon (1 Officer, 40 Men)
Rifle Platoon (1 Officer, 40 Men)
Rifle Platoon (1 Officer, 40 Men)
- Platoon Headquarters (1 Officer, 5 Men)
- - - 1 � 2nd Lt.
- - - 1 � Platoon Sergeant
- - - 4 � Private/Private First Class (Messengers)
- - - - 2 � Pistols
- - - - 4 � Rifles
- Automatic Rifle Squad (8 Men)
- - - 1 � Sergeant
- - - 1 � Corporal
- - - 6 � Private/Private First Class
- - - - 2 � Automatic Riflemen
- - - - 2 � Assistant Automatic Riflemen
- - - - 2 � Ammunition Carriers
- - - - 2 � Pistols (.45 Cal)
- - - - 2 � BAR M1918A2
- - - - 4 � Rifles
- Rifle Section (26 Men)
- - Section HQ (2 Men)
- - - 1 � Sergeant (Section Leader)
- - - 1 � Corporal (Section Guide)
- - - - 2 � Rifles
- - Rifle Squad (8 Men)
- - - 1 � Corporal
- - - 7 � Private/Private First Class
- - - - 8 � Rifles
- - Rifle Squad (8 Men � As above)
- - Rifle Squad (8 Men � As above)
Weapons Platoon (1 Officer, ?? Men)
- Platoon Headquarters (1 Officer, 4 Men)
- Light Machine Gun Section (13 Men)
- - Section Headquarters (3 Men)
- - - 1 � Sergeant
- - - 2 � Private/Private First Class
- - - - 2 � Messenger
- - - - 1 � Pistol (.45 Cal)
- - - - 2 � Rifles
- - Machine Gun Squad (5 Men)
- - - 1 � Corporal
- - - 4 � Private/Private First Class
- - - - 1 � Gunner
- - - - 1 � Assistant Gunner
- - - - 2 � Ammunition Carriers
- - - - 1 � 30Cal Light Machine Gun M1919A4
- - - - 5 � Pistols (.45 Cal)
- - Machine Gun Squad (5 Men � As Above)
- Mortar Section (?? Men)

Glen Willford "Racing the Sunrise" sites the 1941 PA reserve Div breakdown as follows
(520 officers + 7881 men)

-Division HQ with HQ company
-Transport Company
-Engineer Bn.
-Signal Co.
-Med Co.
-Field Arty Regt ( 24x75mm)
-3 Inf Regts ( 3 bns / 3 Co. + 1MG Bn. )
-1 Anti-tank Bn.

Further sites 8/15/41 request to arm the newly activated 10 PA reserve Div.

337 .30cal Model1917 MG
326 .50 Ca AA MGs
449 37mm M3 AT Guns
217 81mm mortars
1837 .45 pistols
84,500 M1 rifles
248 75mm Field guns
100 M3 scout cars
300 1/2 ton Amulances
6820 Trucks

Which breaks down roughly per division

32 x .30cal MGs
30 x .50cal AA MGs
45 x 37mm ATGs
24 x 81mm mortars
24 x 75 mm guns
10 x Scout cars

Only the M1 rifles were denied outright and due to the lack of M3 37mm ATGs it was estimated that only 20% could be supplied but old 37mm Model 1916 infantry guns and additional .30 cal MGs would be substituted.

It appears that owing to number of requested vehicles and the actual number of vehicles in the process of being sent when war broke out that USAAFE was serious about at least semi-motorizing these divisions. The organic transportation for the PA reserve divions was to 479 vehicles with a "minimum" 316

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Post #: 39

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/2/2011 4:32:15 PM

JWE

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Thanks TIMJOT and Don.

Yeah, I should have done some simple long division and paid more attention to the details of the breakdown of the 20s and 30s US Bn. So waded through my Trota again and think I got it. Can't get internally definitive with company organization, but it seems they each had (authorized) 4 BARS, giving 12 to a Bn, with 2 more in the MG coy (as AA protection for weapons carriers !!). Few more scattered about (as AA protection) in the Bn mortar company. Oddly enough, these were only provided 1 to a section, so only the 1st squad carrier had an AA BAR, the second presumably learned to duck.

Have a good grip on the organization with respect to M1917s. However, I still stumble over references to M1919s, or some generic 'air-cooled' MG. I proposed a LMG section in the Inf Coy (just because the contemporary US units had one). Maybe this was grasping at chimeras. I can strike them, easy, and do a "game" PA division with what's known, now, that will come in at the "authorized" levels of man and fire power.

Really wish somebody would ease my pain and say nope, no M1919s and no 60s either. I guess if Dougie wasn't whining for them, they weren't on the 'need list', but confirmation would be nice. Ciao.

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Post #: 40

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/2/2011 10:43:00 PM

TIMJOT

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Joined: 4/30/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

The Philippine Army had a long term plan for six AA Regiments and equipment for the first was in storage at US Army Depots as of 12/7. Awaiting formation and training of the Philippine unit, I suppose. This equipment was historically used to form the 515th AA.

I can confirm that this equipment was used to form the 515th Prov. AA So you might want to rename it the something like 1st PA AA Rgt. but then again, maybe 515th was a PA number designation. It was decided in Nov 41, that due to the difficult training issues in the PI no further AA equipment would be sent, instead only fully equiped and trained USA AA Regts would be sent to protect the Planned FEAF expansion. Apparently 6 regiments were selected for deployment but war begun before any reached ports of embarkation. Since AA was considered by both USAAFE and US army staff to be a priortity we can assume at least some if not most of these regts. would have been deployed by April 42.

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Post #: 41

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/3/2011 2:26:49 AM

Blackhorse

Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Thanks TIMJOT and Don.

Yeah, I should have done some simple long division and paid more attention to the details of the breakdown of the 20s and 30s US Bn. So waded through my Trota again and think I got it. Can't get internally definitive with company organization, but it seems they each had (authorized) 4 BARS, giving 12 to a Bn, with 2 more in the MG coy (as AA protection for weapons carriers !!). Few more scattered about (as AA protection) in the Bn mortar company. Oddly enough, these were only provided 1 to a section, so only the 1st squad carrier had an AA BAR, the second presumably learned to duck.

Have a good grip on the organization with respect to M1917s. However, I still stumble over references to M1919s, or some generic 'air-cooled' MG. I proposed a LMG section in the Inf Coy (just because the contemporary US units had one). Maybe this was grasping at chimeras. I can strike them, easy, and do a "game" PA division with what's known, now, that will come in at the "authorized" levels of man and fire power.

Really wish somebody would ease my pain and say nope, no M1919s and no 60s either. I guess if Dougie wasn't whining for them, they weren't on the 'need list', but confirmation would be nice. Ciao.

I'm here to ease your pain -- in AE research I also tripped over the passing reference to M1919s, but I think M1917s were "more standard". (I was also confused by the rare reference to 75mm AA -- I think they meant the 3" M3/M1917/M1918 guns.

No 60s, and 3" "Trench Mortars" (with a high rate of dud ammo) in lieu of 81mm mortars.

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Post #: 42

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/3/2011 3:23:52 AM

Blackhorse

Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Other than the fact that it existed, I know nothing of the Constabulary Heavy Weapons unit. The Constabulary did have crew served weapons attached to various formations and used in a couple of the recorded engagements against bandits or moros. Sorry, all I got.

As for the Constabulary Companies, that was just speculation...

The pre-war distribution of the constabulary was primarily in company and smaller units in Philippine towns. Larger units were in major cities, bases, and trouble spots. I wish I had a good history of the Constabulary but mostly I just have references here and there. Trotta, for instance, mentions the major operation against the Moros in Jolo but gives no details. In fact, most of what he gives are statistical totals or problems with corruption. Something like 25% of the Constabulary Officers were court martialed for some reason or other. Mostly corruption.

I suspect that there was a higher organization, such that detachments or companies in local areas were part of a battalion located near by, etc. It is know that many of the local detachments were not incorporated into the Regimental sized units, but that may be because they were cut off by the Japanese advance.

I think I'm going to see what Google and I can find out about the Constabulary organization.

Here are my notes on the Constabulary's 2nd Artillery Regiment AKA the Heavy Weapons Regiment:

11x howitzers/guns -- 8x2.95" Pack Howitzers, 2x3" Naval, 1x6 lbr. Naval (In AE I discounted the 6 lbr)
2x 37mm AT gun
17 Bren carriers with .30 cal and .50 cal MGs
an indeterminate number of infantry, and crew served MMG and HMG

------------------------------
Artillery Regiment
Headquarters and Headquarters Battery
1st Battalion - Roberto
2nd Battalion - Vinluan
3rd Battalion - Baltazar
Artillery Battalion each had
Headquarters and Headquarters Company
2 Firing or MG Batteries (MG Batteries seem to exist due to a lack of
artillery pieces from the writing.)

Originally, the 2nd Artillery Regiment had been given only Enfield Rifles,
Water Cooled MMG's, Air Cooled MMG's and .50 cal MG's. Later, it did get
8 -2.95" Mountain Howitzers, 2-3" and 1 6pdr Naval Guns on Pedestal Mounts.
It was often called the Heavy Weapons Regiment.

AT Battalion*
Headquarters and Headquarters Company
Companies A,B,C,D, and E
1 MG Company
1 BREN Gun Carrier Company

*Improvised organization, since it lacked the proper AT equipment called for
in the TO&E. The unit got 17 BREN Gun Carriers seized from a ship going to
Hong Kong. It used .30 cal and .50cal MG's. Acted mainly as Infantry, it
also had 2-37mm AT Guns.

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Post #: 43

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/3/2011 3:10:43 PM

JWE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
Here are my notes on the Constabulary's 2nd Artillery Regiment AKA the Heavy Weapons Regiment:

Thanks a bunch, Joel. Once again, gotta tip the hat to ya'll in the critter branch. Gary Owen!

Where did you find that, btw?

J

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Post #: 44

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/4/2011 1:39:40 AM

Blackhorse

Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
Here are my notes on the Constabulary's 2nd Artillery Regiment AKA the Heavy Weapons Regiment:

Thanks a bunch, Joel. Once again, gotta tip the hat to ya'll in the critter branch. Gary Owen!

Where did you find that, btw?

J

Thanks. Here's the link to the TOE page for the Constabulary:

orbat.com/site/history/volume6/Philippine%20Army%20TO%201941.doc

Keep those Caissons rolling!

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Post #: 45

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/4/2011 5:18:10 PM

JWE

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Ok, think the PA is coming together, thanks to all the help and input. Got a decent take on a PA Inf squad. Because they, and their companies, were so small, and they were (comparatively) so poorly armed, decided to aggregate into an 8 sqds/coy model, and proportionately increase LC and anti-soft. Reducing the sqd/coy factor also helps balance out the relative AVs so that things are actually looking mighty fine with respect to div/rgt stack combat. Here's kinda how it breaks out:

PI Div � AV = 270, in 330 units
IJA IR � AV = 132, in 178 units
US IR � AV = 118, in 160 units
US RCT � AV = 129, in 182 units

The PA div is 'generally' equivalent to 2x an IJ or US Regt. Firepower is lower on a device basis, so the PA Div represents a reversal of the paradigm. Notably, ant Rgts, left here or there, will have an AV of 84, along with the inherent firepower weakness, so the 3:2 ratio still obtains. Gosh, I love it when a plan comes together!

Dialing it all up, the PA division totals out to 7640 troops, against an authorization of 7880. I set the Support rate to 80%, which gives a tooth-to-tail of about 50/50. Looking very good so far.

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Post #: 46

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/5/2011 3:19:45 PM

JWE

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Have a question about the 'opening day' breakouts for this scenario.

If we presume the PA was getting its poopie together and had much of its needed equipment, Dougie would also have had additional time to strengthen his beach defenses. Japanese intelligence would be aware of this and their operational planning would not have broken Kanno's Bn out of Tanaka's 2nd Formosa and had the two rumps hit Aparri and Vigan separately.

I'm positioning the assault units and TFs, and think it's best to strike the "detachments" and just leave things in terms of the parent regiments. Some detachments, of course, are reasonable (Sakaguchi, Kawaguchi, et al) but think Kanno, Tanaka, Miura, etc., would not have obtained in the scenario's environment and propose to omit them. Comments?

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/5/2011 8:29:37 PM

berto

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Any ETA for this short map PI scenario? Next week? Next month? ...

(Yeah, I know, it's ready when it's ready.)

I'm giving consideration to tackling the DEI scenario next, and I like to plan ahead my limited free time.

< Message edited by berto -- 5/5/2011 11:39:18 PM >

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Post #: 48

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/6/2011 2:52:27 PM

JWE

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Not as fast as next week, but not as long as next month. Sorry, but that's the best I can say.

Found some grits in the DEI scen, so will clean that up too. Will add a 'CPX Scenarios' section to the website and post the DEI and PI and whatever other short mappers we come up with. Will have some explanations about how they are designed to be played and what can and cannot be done with letting the computer run either of the two sides.

Ciao. J

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/6/2011 4:04:50 PM

TIMJOT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Have a question about the 'opening day' breakouts for this scenario.

If we presume the PA was getting its poopie together and had much of its needed equipment, Dougie would also have had additional time to strengthen his beach defenses. Japanese intelligence would be aware of this and their operational planning would not have broken Kanno's Bn out of Tanaka's 2nd Formosa and had the two rumps hit Aparri and Vigan separately.

I'm positioning the assault units and TFs, and think it's best to strike the "detachments" and just leave things in terms of the parent regiments. Some detachments, of course, are reasonable (Sakaguchi, Kawaguchi, et al) but think Kanno, Tanaka, Miura, etc., would not have obtained in the scenario's environment and propose to omit them. Comments?

Japan had a very good intelligence network in the PI. So I think we would have to assume with USAFFE strength increased exponentionally that the 14th Amry would likewise be strengthen. Most players use the 4th Div as part of the 14th Army anyway so that should be available in the scenerio and perhaps even the 56th Div. since Yamashita didnt use it historically and it is unlikely given the Brits preocupation wtih N.Africa that any substantial ground reinforcements would have been sent to Malaya. I believe only the 44th and 45th Indian Bgds along with 8th Aus Div. organic MG and Pioneer Bns. were planned to be sent to Malaya prior to the start of war.

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Post #: 50

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/6/2011 6:42:13 PM

berto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

... Will add a 'CPX Scenarios' section to the website and post the DEI and PI and whatever other short mappers we come up with. Will have some explanations about how they are designed to be played ...

Grateful for this. The more documentation (lying out in plain view, not buried deep in some forum thread) the better.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/8/2011 2:30:14 AM

dwg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
I'm positioning the assault units and TFs, and think it's best to strike the "detachments" and just leave things in terms of the parent regiments. Some detachments, of course, are reasonable (Sakaguchi, Kawaguchi, et al) but think Kanno, Tanaka, Miura, etc., would not have obtained in the scenario's environment and propose to omit them. Comments?

Seems reasonable, the Japanese were able to break their operations down into detachments because they weren't expecting to hit substantial formed forces in the first stages of the landings. But you aren't likely to detach a battalion TF if there's a good chance it might run into a formed regiment, or division, before mama can come running.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/8/2011 1:54:31 PM

JWE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT
Japan had a very good intelligence network in the PI. So I think we would have to assume with USAFFE strength increased exponentionally that the 14th Amry would likewise be strengthen. Most players use the 4th Div as part of the 14th Army anyway so that should be available in the scenerio and perhaps even the 56th Div. since Yamashita didnt use it historically and it is unlikely given the Brits preocupation wtih N.Africa that any substantial ground reinforcements would have been sent to Malaya. I believe only the 44th and 45th Indian Bgds along with 8th Aus Div. organic MG and Pioneer Bns. were planned to be sent to Malaya prior to the start of war.

Yes, although Japan is not necessarily reinforced so much as unit arrivals are accelerated. To make this scenarios work, we presume that the off-map operations (Malaya, Burma prep, etc..) proceed as they did, and that on-map follow-on operations (Celebes, Borneo, fx) are in planning, using the same time schedule and units. So ...

16th ID Maj Gen Morioka Susumu and 48th ID Maj Gen Tsuchibashi Y�ichi conduct the initial assault. 4th ID Maj Gen Kitano Kenz� accelerated arrival (ex-Takao). 21st ID Maj Gen Nagano Kameichir� accelerated arrival (ex-Taihoku). 65th IBr Maj Gen Nara Akira is scheduled to arrive (ex-Anami Oshima) when 48th ID is "officially" detached to 16th Army. 9th IBr Maj Gen Kawamura Sabur� transfered to 14th Army from South Army on normal schedule. 35th IBr Maj Gen Kawaguchi Kiyotake transfered to 14th Army from South Army on normal schedule (but is on-map for the Miri/Kuching ops).

56th IBr Maj Gen Sakaguchi Shizuo and 10th IGarBr Col Ikuta Torao available from 16th Army (ex-Babeldaob) for initial assault. Other available 16th Army units include 38th ID Maj Gen Sano Tadayoshi, after conclusion of Hong Kong ops. 2nd ID Maj Gen Maruyama Masa� accelerated arrival (ex-Babeldaob).

Since Miura would remain with 33rd IR, the Miura Detachment is replaced with an AEaster Egg. And then, of course, there's the IJN units.

< Message edited by JWE -- 5/8/2011 2:28:09 PM >

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/18/2011 5:36:16 PM

JWE

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Japan done. Some AEaster eggs lurking in them there woods. Working now on the PI forces, according to stuff provided by Uncle Don, Tinjot, and others.

What to do, what to do, with PA divisions that left units behind on Cebu and Mindanao when the main echelon moved to Luzon in the stock scenario?? Keep them split up?? Move everyone to Luzon?? Keep everyone at the organization location and let players move them?? What to do, what to do. Comments??

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/18/2011 6:35:15 PM

berto

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*

< Message edited by berto -- 5/23/2011 8:00:19 PM >

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/18/2011 8:27:51 PM

TIMJOT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Japan done. Some AEaster eggs lurking in them there woods. Working now on the PI forces, according to stuff provided by Uncle Don, Tinjot, and others.

What to do, what to do, with PA divisions that left units behind on Cebu and Mindanao when the main echelon moved to Luzon in the stock scenario?? Keep them split up?? Move everyone to Luzon?? Keep everyone at the organization location and let players move them?? What to do, what to do. Comments??

I believe you mean the 73st and 93rd Regts. on Leyete and Negros Islands. Those regiments probably should be joined with parent Divisions on Luzon as I believed that was the plan but I am pretty sure they were no plans on deploying the Cebu, Panay, and Mindanao Divisions to Luzon or else there would be no force left in the Visaya/Mindanao Force. Cebu in particular was going to be the location of THE major Bomber base for the FEAF. So I doubt they would leave it undefended.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/18/2011 9:12:09 PM

Don Bowen

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As I recall, MacArthur's plan was to concentrate for the defense of Luzon and Mindanao. Del Monte, on Mindanao, was to be a major airbase.

If shipping and the Japanese had allowed, I believe the entire 71st and 91st Divisions would have moved to Luzon. The actual movement started after hostilities, and I do not know the planned schedule pre-war. Or, indeed, if they would have moved at all. Additional CD defenses were being planned for the Visayas.

The 61st and 81st were to move to Mindanao, a movement that also began after war broke out.

In all cases, only portions of the Visayas divisions completed the move.

Another problem is the long-term goal of a full corps for each military district. Not to be completed until 1946, but at some time (soon?) the mobilization of the second divsion in each district would have begun. Note that Panay was able to raise two more (under equiped) regiments before being overrun. The first division might have moved while the units of the second defended the Visayas??

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 4:20:25 AM

TIMJOT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

As I recall, MacArthur's plan was to concentrate for the defense of Luzon and Mindanao. Del Monte, on Mindanao, was to be a major airbase.

If shipping and the Japanese had allowed, I believe the entire 71st and 91st Divisions would have moved to Luzon. The actual movement started after hostilities, and I do not know the planned schedule pre-war. Or, indeed, if they would have moved at all. Additional CD defenses were being planned for the Visayas.

The 61st and 81st were to move to Mindanao, a movement that also began after war broke out.

In all cases, only portions of the Visayas divisions completed the move.

Another problem is the long-term goal of a full corps for each military district. Not to be completed until 1946, but at some time (soon?) the mobilization of the second divsion in each district would have begun. Note that Panay was able to raise two more (under equiped) regiments before being overrun. The first division might have moved while the units of the second defended the Visayas??

Hi Don

From what I read even MacArthur didnt think Mindanao was defensible and because it was outside his defense perimeter he told Washington that Del Monte would not due for the planned bomber base. Del Monte would serve as an auxillary base and for expediancy temporarliy serve as the 7th BG base until the Cebu base could be developed. USAFFE maintained that with the completion of the Inland Seas Defence project and in-shore patrol that the Visayas could be defended. It was thought that Cebu also had the advantage of being far enough away as to be imune to Japanese attack but close enough to allow B-17 and B-24 to strike enemy targets. It was only after the early start of the war made the Cebu base in Inland Seas Defence project moot that the decision was made to concentrate on Mindanao to protect the now only practical base Del Monte. Both Sharp and Chenweyth were posted to there commands prior to out break of the war so it doesnt appear that the Panay and Cebu Divisions were going anywhere.

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RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 10:23:31 AM

el cid again

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The key to an interesting game that MIGHT permit Allied victory is Baguio City. The road system is right at
Hex 81,74.

It needs to be a location with lots of supply generation, lots of resource generation, coded as non-malarial - and
as mountains. It is not only a mining center, but a food producing area, with fabulous ridge lines and swift flowing
rivers at the bottoms of each valley. It is a real airfield too. And location of Fort John Hay. A house there is still
US territory - it is where Yamashita surrendered. He had to be ORDERED to surrender - because his position was
so strong it was not worth the effort to force him out. So when he pointed out surrender was against Japanese
law, and he required written orders from the Emperor, we waited for that to happen.

Otherwise, mine RHS for a WITP type OB - derived from The Philippine Army - a scholarly treatment - as well as
US Army materials - some of them from the museum at For John Hay and not published.

Rename location 623 Balinta pass - the trail system is also correct here - for a communications route from the
Northern Ilagan Valley into the central plain of Luzon. It needs to be defined as mountains as well.

Ilagan valley makes some supply ( lots of food, water, timber ) and Bontoc should be a new location with
resources - the trails are already correct - at hex 81,73. It has the largest copper mine in Asia - to this day -
well except a major PRC project in New Guinea that may now be opened. Had Japan exploited this, it would not
have had any copper needs from anywhere else.

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Post #: 59

RE: Short Map PI Scen - 5/19/2011 12:04:31 PM

berto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The key to an interesting game that MIGHT permit Allied victory is Baguio City ... A house there is still US territory - it is where Yamashita surrendered.

Didn't Yamashita in fact surrender at Kiangan, Ifugao?

Look here.

quote:

Rename location 623 Balinta pass - the trail system is also correct here - for a communications route from the Northern Ilagan Valley into the central plain of Luzon.

Also, it's the Cagayan Valley, named after the Cagayan River, the Philippine's longest and largest, that runs through the valley, south to north. Ilagan is the capital of Isabela Province, just one of several provinces in the Cagayan Valley Region.

< Message edited by berto -- 5/23/2011 7:15:21 AM >

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