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Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still)

 
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Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/4/2011 1:11:11 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline 		Attached is a save game that shows that this issue still exists in Beta K9.

TF339 is an Auto Convoy stuck at Tientsin in China waiting for oil where no oil exists. It contains both a TK and an xAK set to load resources there. The xAK loads fine while obviously the TK does not (since there is no oil there at all).

As I usually do not pay much attention to these TFs unless they get stuck, I assume the TF left Osaka to deliver supplies and fuel to Tientsin but require the TF to load resources and oil for the return.

Can anything be done about this because this will have a really MAJOR impact on the Japanese AI if large quanties of their supply TFs get stuck at ports waiting for oil where no oil is available?

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RE: Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/4/2011 12:27:11 PM   
janh

 

Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline 		Have noticed this once as well.  The AI handling of supply and resource convoys could be much better.  In my present game (Scen 1 against Allied AI, Hard) I find that the quality of the AI behavior suffers tremendously from the convoy issues. 

Sort of like the problem with lack of escorts the Japanese AI does have when playing Scen 1 as Allied, the Allied are way overstretched in 1942.  AI forms way too many small convoys, usually only escorted by 1 or 2 DD, a KV or so.  An these convoys traveling all the way from the west coast through CENTPAC to OZ are extremely vulnerable to subs and raiders, not to mention capital ships or CVs and cause heavy DD losses that then hamper AI.
In my present game I was quite lucky getting a lot of the Dutch and British escorts sunk in the DEI, along with many (x)AK(L), (x)AP and auxiliaries, and simultaneously hurt the US escorts and merchant fleet pretty bad with several extensive deep strikes towards Fidji, Canton, OZ etc.  In Mai 1942 I now see Allied AI forming CV-TFs and SC-TFs with as little as 1 DD as escort as the few left at this point still escort supply convoys.

I think the auto convoy system on both sides needs to be tuned, and this would benefit AI quality overall a lot.  For example it would be better if AI would put together larger convoys, and ship supplies and resources more infrequently (like once every 2 weeks or so) rather than sending 1-3 xAKs to a base every 2nd turn or so.  Having larger convoys, the number of escorts detached for these tasks might be smaller.  The casualties might increase if a larger convoy is caught, but the AI would benefit from having more DD left over for escorting naval operations. 
Maybe AI should also have a threshold below which no DD's or above should used to escort supply convoys (especially in rear areas, if it could be implemented for AI to detect "rear area routes" that are never close than a certain number of hexes from the next enemy base, or recently spotted SC-TFs).  Even with aggressive handling of Japanese subs in 42, it would cause less harm for AI to send fewer large convoys unescorted from CONUSA to Pearl or OZ, than by sending the "piece meal packages".
Also AI tends to supply even remote, unimportant bases like Flinders island (Tasmania) too well while risking valuable ships doing so.  Maybe bases that are far back and have small port and airfield sizes should be resupplied less often?

For the player control of auto convoys it would be nice, if on the auto-convoy screen the player could select criteria that must be met for AI to form a new convoy, like frequency of convoys to a certain base, number of escorts per merchant ship, minimum number of ships or such that would allow tuning the convoy consistency a bit...

Hopefully some of that is worth consideration for a future patch.  I think especially Japanese AI would benefit a lot from that, and also micromanagement of the resource and supply convoys could be reduced a bit...


< Message edited by janh -- 5/4/2011 12:29:11 PM >

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/4/2011 1:12:55 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		The auto convoy system has been massively overhauled in this patch compared to earlier. The system had some things that didn't work very well initially.

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/4/2011 1:57:25 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The auto convoy system has been massively overhauled in this patch compared to earlier. The system had some things that didn't work very well initially.


Agree. AC is very nice now.

Many players don't understand how demand is generated for AC TFs. It's not based on periodicity or location as far as I can tell, but only on total demand by in-base LCUs. Asking the AI to decide which bases are "exposed" or "too far to the rear" is asking too much of a system that's just for housekeeping. Going back to WITP the AC system had a per-turn limit on the number of TFs which could be formed and launched, and they got bumped down the load queue when the player took over the port and ordered manual TFs to form and load--which is as it should be.

The AC system isn't really "auto". It takes a fair bit of player judgment to set up and run. It's just an aid, not a solution.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/4/2011 2:00:29 PM >

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The Moose

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 4
RE: Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/4/2011 1:58:18 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Attached is a save game that shows that this issue still exists in Beta K9.

TF339 is an Auto Convoy stuck at Tientsin in China waiting for oil where no oil exists. It contains both a TK and an xAK set to load resources there. The xAK loads fine while obviously the TK does not (since there is no oil there at all).

As I usually do not pay much attention to these TFs unless they get stuck, I assume the TF left Osaka to deliver supplies and fuel to Tientsin but require the TF to load resources and oil for the return.

Can anything be done about this because this will have a really MAJOR impact on the Japanese AI if large quanties of their supply TFs get stuck at ports waiting for oil where no oil is available?

I ran the save on the latest beta (m1) and the TF left port.
If there is no oil or resource to load, then the ship will be marked as 'load_completed'. Once all ships are so marked, the TF should leave port.


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 5
RE: Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/4/2011 2:03:11 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		I only use it to keep rear-area or specific bases supplied. It does a best guess on what supply/fuel is needed at the base, what supply/fuel is already enroute, and what it thinks is needed.

To set up specific oil/resource movement, you should really use CS-type convoys that will ply back and forth moving oil/resources and maybe returning supply/fuel.


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/4/2011 2:30:19 PM   
janh

 

Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
I only use it to keep rear-area or specific bases supplied. It does a best guess on what supply/fuel is needed at the base, what supply/fuel is already enroute, and what it thinks is needed.

To set up specific oil/resource movement, you should really use CS-type convoys that will ply back and forth moving oil/resources and maybe returning supply/fuel.


Pretty much do manual or CS-type convoys for all my bases in my games. It also allows setting up more dedicated ASW partrol zones and interlocking air patrols on convoy routes.

I just noticed in my recent AI game how many DD and other escorts the AI lost due to small convoys traveling on routes near Fidji and Noumea being picked off by my Betties, KB and occasional surface raiders, and finally ran into Allied carrier TFs escorted by far too few DD (<<4-6, rather 1-2 per CV). I assume a smart player that stage would have taken higher risks for the convoys, but reserved the few remaining DDs for CV duty (or left the combat ships safely in port). Perhaps limited the supply shipments to minimum, form larger convoys to reduce the need for escorts, and use mostly DE, KV, SC... for convoy duty.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 7
RE: Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/4/2011 2:36:07 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		I think that the AI is probably building smaller convoys in order to speed up supply/resource movement.
From its perspective, as it doesn't have 'smarts' to stock bases with shore parties,naval support,etc like a human player, it wants to maximize the un/load time of ships in the TF as they move between bases.


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/4/2011 3:32:04 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Attached is a save game that shows that this issue still exists in Beta K9.

TF339 is an Auto Convoy stuck at Tientsin in China waiting for oil where no oil exists. It contains both a TK and an xAK set to load resources there. The xAK loads fine while obviously the TK does not (since there is no oil there at all).

As I usually do not pay much attention to these TFs unless they get stuck, I assume the TF left Osaka to deliver supplies and fuel to Tientsin but require the TF to load resources and oil for the return.

Can anything be done about this because this will have a really MAJOR impact on the Japanese AI if large quanties of their supply TFs get stuck at ports waiting for oil where no oil is available?

I ran the save on the latest beta (m1) and the TF left port.
If there is no oil or resource to load, then the ship will be marked as 'load_completed'. Once all ships are so marked, the TF should leave port.



Of course it did :) It figures that the Beta I'm using still had the issue lol.

The main reason I posted though is because I did not see anything in the patch notes between K9 and M2 that indicated that this issue had been addressed again. Maybe a line in the notes about this being tweaked again to work better would be good idea. I mean it's not like you have anything else to do right lol.

So now to upgrade once again. I will tell you after playing a while with your updates, I could never go back to the last 'official' patch. Just too many cool things that make the game work better (especially the search arcs). Thanks again for all that you are doing to improve the game.

Any idea of when all of this be made 'official'? Or will everyone just be playing from now on on Betas

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 9
RE: Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/4/2011 3:59:22 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

The main reason I posted though is because I did not see anything in the patch notes between K9 and M2 that indicated that this issue had been addressed again. Maybe a line in the notes about this being tweaked again to work better would be good idea. I mean it's not like you have anything else to do right lol.



quote:

If there is no oil or resource to load, then the ship will be marked as 'load_completed'. Once all ships are so marked, the TF should leave port.

This hasn't changed in the latest beta. The core process has always been in place.
The only change I can see that had to do with forcing the automatic/computer-controlled TF to leave port if it cant load anything was in the start of this series of betas (1108a - Xmas 2010).

The only thing changed in last beta had to do with movement of excess oil/resources between bases. That wouldn't have affectt the TF loading.

< Message edited by michaelm -- 5/4/2011 4:02:04 PM >

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 10
RE: Japanese Auto Convoy issues (still) - 5/5/2011 5:16:21 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		Actually auto-convoys are leaving ports, when there was nothing to load, even in WITP (I know, because I had A LOT TFs wandering either empty, or with 200 tons in every ship). I doubt it was changed in AE.

If TF stays in port, there must be other reason. Maybe mingled load (supply AND resources) in some ships? I have seen it in WITP.
Maybe it is low on fuel?

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 11
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