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RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/15/2011 1:52:36 AM   
Sredni

 

Posts: 705
Joined: 9/30/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I had an amazing string of luck with one of the japanese CV's. A bunch of my S boats were patrolling around rabaul and I hit a CV just north of guadalcanal twice. Then I hit it again with another S boat with another 2 torpedoes a bit to the north. Then a couple weeks later hit it again twice with two non duds from a normally dudtastic fleet boat just south of truk. I'm pretty sure it finally sunk after the 6th torp heh.

But yes I've also had numerous duds on juicy targets. cruisers and BB's, CV's, CVL's, and CVE's have all laughed off duds in this game, with the one CV being the only success.

It may be frustrating, but that's historical. C'est la vie

(in reply to dereck)
Post #: 31
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/15/2011 3:19:30 AM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

One thing to remember is that with a torpedo with a dud rate of 80% it doesn't mean that:

out of 100 torpedoes fired 80 will be duds and 20 will hit, BUT

that each of the 100 torpedoes has an 80% chance of being a dud

Considering the above it would be possible to have streaks of hits and streaks of dud.


I made a post about this in another thread. I implied that the dud rate was double counting, in a way.

for example, assume you fire 10 torpedoes at a ship. Not all of them will actually strike the hull. at least half will miss ahead and astern. So, assume 5 hit. With an 80% dud rate, 4 will be duds and 1 will explode. In this example, you have an 'ineffective' rate of 90%. Assuming 5 will strike, out of 10 is pretty high. Another poster made the comment that war ships are sort of impractical to hunt in 42 and you should hunt merchants. He's definitely got a point.

If your target has the majority of torpedoes miss, then the actual hits will seem more likely to be duds. Shooting at a DD, you can probably expect 1 out of 10 shots to strike the hull. And, that 1 has an 80% dud rate. Shooting at an AK will have a greater chance of striking the hull. So, say 6 of 10 strike. Then you'll get 1 or 2 explosions every once in a while.

So, to back up the OP, he's seeing real close to 100% 'ineffective' torpedoes. That's counting misses and duds. Since he's hunting war ships, he's definitely over 90% ineffective torpedoes. It's probably 98% considering how hard it is to strike 30 knot ships.



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Post #: 32
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/15/2011 3:21:39 AM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

I had an amazing string of luck with one of the japanese CV's. A bunch of my S boats were patrolling around rabaul and I hit a CV just north of guadalcanal twice. Then I hit it again with another S boat with another 2 torpedoes a bit to the north. Then a couple weeks later hit it again twice with two non duds from a normally dudtastic fleet boat just south of truk. I'm pretty sure it finally sunk after the 6th torp heh.

But yes I've also had numerous duds on juicy targets. cruisers and BB's, CV's, CVL's, and CVE's have all laughed off duds in this game, with the one CV being the only success.

It may be frustrating, but that's historical. C'est la vie


The reason your 'dudtastic' fleet boat hit that CV is because it was slowed way down by the S class hits. Hitting a damaged ship is fairly easy in AE. Once you have an increase in hits, the dud rate isn't as critical. Shoot 6 torps, 5 hit, one will explode. If the CV wasn't damaged, shoot 6 torps, 1 hits, it's a dud. :(

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Post #: 33
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/15/2011 4:07:42 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Actually, if you open your editor and look up the types of torpedo assigned to the different platforms, you will find that initial dud rates vary by torpedo type.

USN submarines use the 21" Mark 14 (dud rate 80%)
USN surface ships (DDs) use the 21" Mark 15 (dud rate 60%)
USN TBD's and TBF's use the 22.4" Mark 13 (dud rate 50%).

And as stated above, the rates improve as the date progresses.

B

EDIT: A good place to find the historical information is here: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm



Big B -

It should have been obvious that each torpedo type has it's own dud rate - but I managed to miss it.

Thank You for the clarification - it really helps. Appreciate the link also.

Mac

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Post #: 34
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/15/2011 11:16:04 PM   
John Lansford

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

SDhundt. USN dive-bombers with 1000lb bombs ruin Jap Cv's ,


Unless they've got armored flight decks, or even fairly thick ones like Kaga, Akagi and the Cranes have. Then you get surface explosions and have to hope you get enough to start fires. When SBD's with 500# bombs were enough to sink Akagi and Kaga at Midway, you'd think the game would simulate those bombs penetrating the flight deck, but no it doesn't.

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)
Post #: 35
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/15/2011 11:50:38 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		I've never seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a CV and not penetrate (as in "Deck armor hit").  In fact, I don't think I've seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a BB and be turned away by the deck armor, but I could be mistaken on that one.

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(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 36
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/15/2011 11:52:15 PM   
HansBolter


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Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

I've never seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a CV and not penetrate (as in "Deck armor hit").  In fact, I don't think I've seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a BB and be turned away by the deck armor, but I could be mistaken on that one.



I've seen 1000 pounders bounce off BB turrets.

I have also seen 8" cruiser shells fail to penetrate the nonexistent deck armor of Japanese AMCs.

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Hans


(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 37
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/15/2011 11:54:24 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		OK, turrets, I've seen repel 1000lb'ers.  

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

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Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 38
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/16/2011 12:10:42 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

I've never seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a CV and not penetrate (as in "Deck armor hit").  In fact, I don't think I've seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a BB and be turned away by the deck armor, but I could be mistaken on that one.


I thought "deck armor hit" or "belt armor hit" meant the shot was deflected, maybe with some system damage. I thought you needed "penetrated" to get the full boomski.

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The Moose

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 39
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/16/2011 12:14:34 AM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		You're thinking correctly about "Deck armor hit", Moose.  I wasn't clear enough.  However, I don't know for sure that you have to see the "penetrated" message to get the full boomski.    Maybe you do, I'm not sure.

CV's, if hit by 1000lb bombs, do not have enough armor to prevent the full boomski. 


_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 40
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/16/2011 12:24:04 AM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

I've never seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a CV and not penetrate (as in "Deck armor hit").  In fact, I don't think I've seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a BB and be turned away by the deck armor, but I could be mistaken on that one.


I have never seen a 1,000lb bomb penetrate any BB deck armor. It takes right around 25 hits with 1,000lb bombs to build up enough fire to sink a BB.

1,000lb bombs will definitely penetrate all CV deck armor. Not sure about the 500lb ones. Haven't seen enough of them to notice what they do.

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(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 41
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/16/2011 2:41:31 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

I've never seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a CV and not penetrate (as in "Deck armor hit").  In fact, I don't think I've seen a 1000lb bomb hit the deck of a BB and be turned away by the deck armor, but I could be mistaken on that one.



I have seen a device get hit like say a 25mm AAA gun or a 5 inch gun and the bomb fails to penetrate. It seems that if a device gets hit it has the ability to slow down a bomb or shell.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 42
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/16/2011 5:01:40 AM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Please don't confuse dude rate vs hits. Numerous torps hit and just fail to detonate...

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Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

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Post #: 43
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/16/2011 1:40:28 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

You're thinking correctly about "Deck armor hit", Moose.  I wasn't clear enough.  However, I don't know for sure that you have to see the "penetrated" message to get the full boomski.    Maybe you do, I'm not sure.

CV's, if hit by 1000lb bombs, do not have enough armor to prevent the full boomski. 



After some of the dev posts about text messages in the ASW module I've come to never trust the texts completley. In ASW I had first thought the number of asterisks represented the amount of minor system damage accrued from a near miss, but the devs said otherwise. (The text is mostly or all window dressing unless there's a penetrating ASW weapon hit.)

In the case of the CVs and 1000 LBers it might be that the text doesn't discriminate but the effect code does. I don't know. I do see "penetrate" messages all the time on the 500 LB SAP bombs, but the 1000s seems more variable in the text.

I agree with bradley (below) that I've nbever seen a 1000 LBer penetrate a BB. It's either accumulated fire or torps to sink them.

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The Moose

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Post #: 44
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/16/2011 2:13:01 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

You're thinking correctly about "Deck armor hit", Moose.  I wasn't clear enough.  However, I don't know for sure that you have to see the "penetrated" message to get the full boomski.    Maybe you do, I'm not sure.

CV's, if hit by 1000lb bombs, do not have enough armor to prevent the full boomski. 



After some of the dev posts about text messages in the ASW module I've come to never trust the texts completley. In ASW I had first thought the number of asterisks represented the amount of minor system damage accrued from a near miss, but the devs said otherwise. (The text is mostly or all window dressing unless there's a penetrating ASW weapon hit.)

In the case of the CVs and 1000 LBers it might be that the text doesn't discriminate but the effect code does. I don't know. I do see "penetrate" messages all the time on the 500 LB SAP bombs, but the 1000s seems more variable in the text.

I agree with bradley (below) that I've nbever seen a 1000 LBer penetrate a BB. It's either accumulated fire or torps to sink them.



It isn't just accumulated fire damage that can sink them with non-penetraters. 100 accumulated system damage will work just as well.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 45
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/16/2011 4:39:47 PM   
Schanilec

 

Posts: 4040
Joined: 6/12/2010
From: Grand Forks, ND
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Does anyone know if an American sub hit any Japanese carrier in 1942?



Did Hiyo get severely damaged in 42 or 43?
I need to go look up Blair.....

Or go to combinedfleet.com TROM: 10 June 1943, Hiyo took two torpedoes from USS Trigger.

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Post #: 46
RE: I just need to say this......... - 5/16/2011 5:09:20 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

It isn't just accumulated fire damage that can sink them with non-penetraters. 100 accumulated system damage will work just as well.


OK, that too. I was trying to say that floatation damage is hard to come by.

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The Moose

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Post #: 47
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