RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A)

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:29:02 PM

vicberg

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline

But both sides have been using it, consistently.� Read through GJ's AAR.� Look at the sizes of the raids.� Yes, it's a flaw.� Yes it needs to be fixed.� But how can you claim exploit, when GJ has been doing the same thing?�

(in reply to Bluebook)

Post #: 421

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:32:04 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

That's a design flaw then, if true.� Can't make an artificial limit like that.� The game breaks down in large numbers.�

That's what I noticed and reported with the bomber raids. I could have 500-600 fighters and it didn't matter - most didn't fight. It's all about swamping the CAP with the largest raid possible.

In other words: you knew. And used it...

It might be a good idea to cool it on the vitriolic comments, Bluebook. We ALL know and use things in the game to benefit our play.

Rader actually reported the problem and tried to get the GAME fixed so everyone could actually have a better mechanism to use. Lets get back to the game. If you have an issue beyond this there are other places to voice it more effectively.

(in reply to Bluebook)

Post #: 422

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:34:41 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

Let me just say that this game has been fun to follow from both sides. I have almost ten years on this forum and it is the most interesting AAR that I have ever read. In a way it is also exploring uncharted territory as serves as a play test for late war games. I doubt very seriously that the game could ever have been play tested to work out the issues that both players are dealing with now. There is a lot going back and forth about what is right and what is not.

That said, GJ was making a bold strike at a point in Japan which if successful could have ultimately proved fatal to Rader. We really do not fully understand what is broken or not as how many of us have experienced this sort of thing. But I can't fault any player for doing whatever is necessary to turn back an attack such as this. The stakes are just too high. As an Allied player I feel for GJ but I would have done the same if I could.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 423

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 7:41:32 PM

vicberg

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Let me just say that this game has been fun to follow from both sides. I have almost ten years on this forum and it is the most interesting AAR that I have ever read. In a way it is also exploring uncharted territory as serves as a play test for late war games. I doubt very seriously that the game could ever have been play tested to work out the issues that both players are dealing with now. There is a lot going back and forth about what is right and what is not.

That said, GJ was making a bold strike at a point in Japan which if successful could have ultimately proved fatal to Rader. We really do not fully understand what is broken or not as how many of us have experienced this sort of thing. But I can't fault any player for doing whatever is necessary to turn back an attack such as this. The stakes are just too high. As an Allied player I feel for GJ but I would have done the same if I could.

Agreed. I may not agree with the choice, but it was bold and this game has been extremely fun to watch. I compliment both players. Both players have basically "won" this game from the sheer entertainment value alone.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 424

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 8:15:14 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

Hans- You just have a way of pissing off everyone, in every post, in every topic...

sooner or later you're hopefully going to figure out that pissing them off to the degree they deserve is the aim

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to jeffk3510)

Post #: 425

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 10:01:51 PM

desicat

Posts: 542
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline

I have to laugh at the people who are claiming Rader (or GJ) is "Guilty" of something (gaming the system, a-historic play, taking advantage of game engine quirks , etc..).

Who asked your opinion on that subject? Not Rader, nor for that matter did GJ . Are you somehow harmed by the two of them playing and enjoying the game? Have you money invested on either sides' performance?

This is Scen 2, completely a-historic from the get go. Does anyone really think that the US would be prosecuting the war with the level of casualties that have been inflicted to this point? Wouldn't Japan be stronger with ALL of Asia under its dominion? The airstrikes used by both sides are large enough to make bomber command in Europe envious, yet Rader and GJ continue to play and enjoy the game.

This game has about as much in common with reality as the war between Oceana and (edit Eastasia oops)Eurasia.

< Message edited by desicat -- 1/26/2012 10:11:49 PM >

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 426

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 10:08:49 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL:

This game has about as much in common with reality as the war between Oceana and Eurasia.

We have always been at war with Eastasia hun. Report to Miniluv at once.

< Message edited by Gr�fin Zeppelin -- 1/26/2012 10:09:10 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to desicat)

Post #: 427

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/26/2012 11:42:45 PM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL:

This game has about as much in common with reality as the war between Oceana and Eurasia.

We have always been at war with Eastasia hun. Report to Miniluv at once.

One of my fav quotes of all time!!!

_____________________________

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)

Post #: 428

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/27/2012 2:10:10 AM

jeffk3510

Posts: 4132
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

Hans- You just have a way of pissing off everyone, in every post, in every topic...

sooner or later you're hopefully going to figure out that pissing them off to the degree they deserve is the aim

Congrats..

_____________________________

Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 429

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/30/2012 7:14:15 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Hi Rader,

Bump from page two purgatory. What's new in the Empire?

_____________________________

(in reply to jeffk3510)

Post #: 430

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/30/2012 7:20:10 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

How is your HI reserve and the general situation of fuel,oil,resources and supply if I might ask ?

Fairly healthy I'd say (most in Japan):

HI ~ 1.8 million
Fuel ~ 7.7 million
Oil ~ 3 million
Supply ~ 5.5 million
Resources ?? but lots in home islands (generally you don't run out if you bring them home unless really blockaded).

Really an excellent reserve. It demonstrates to me the penalty to the Allies if they are not able to interdict the oil supply until late in the game. A hypothetical question for you. Considering the date, if the Allied player were able to completely sever your oil supply tomorrow, will this sort of reserve support Japan through 1946? That is given cutting and trimming production where needed, should this be enough?

Rader,

A bump to this post from crsutton. I'd like to know your answer to his query as well.

_____________________________

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 431

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/30/2012 10:03:07 PM

rader

Posts: 1238
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

Sorry, I don't know for sure. My guess is that I have about a year reserve, so it would make a difference, but not until late 1945/early1946.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 432

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/30/2012 10:48:36 PM

desicat

Posts: 542
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline

Well Rader, now that his CV's forces have taken a big hit he has supply line issues to worry about. His three beach heads still need to be supplied as does his new island conquest, that is a lot of shipping he needs to escort.

You can lay back and let him bring the air, land. and sea war to you (as he will anyhow), but is there something you can do offensively?

(in reply to rader)

Post #: 433

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 1/31/2012 11:36:21 PM

rader

Posts: 1238
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

Maybe... but his supply lines barely run outside land-based air cover. And as we've seen, that can be pretty deadly...

(in reply to desicat)

Post #: 434

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 4:12:36 PM

rader

Posts: 1238
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

Since all his planes are at Ominato, following the WITP:AE maxim that if you have enough escorts, your bombers are invulnerable, I decided to send gobs of sacrificial oscars with untrained pilots as ablative armor for over 400 bombers. Lost most of the Oscars, but at least none of the pilots were any good. And the bombers were barely scratched.

Seriously guys, I am convinced the air to air combat system is a bit screwy, at least for large raids. Also silly how escot fighters are at least 5 times more vulnerable than if they are sweeping or flying cap and maybe more ~ but they do get the bombers through in style. (I'm not talking about here because obviously these rookies wouldn't stand a chance).

My observations from experiences throughout the campaign (India, Solomons, Japan):

Sweep/CAP - use the best planes and pilots as possible.
Escort: plane/pilot make virtually no difference; these guys are flying suicide missions anyway. But just having crappy planes and pilots to occupy the CAP and absorb ammunition is vital to get the bombers through.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rader -- 2/5/2012 4:46:23 PM >

(in reply to rader)

Post #: 435

RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 4:17:33 PM

rader

Posts: 1238
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 167
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 452
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 375

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 16
Seafire L.III x 3
Mosquito FB.VI x 14
Spitfire VIII x 72
Thunderbolt I x 12
Thunderbolt II x 6
Spitfire VIII x 20
F4U-1D Corsair x 25
P-38J Lightning x 16
P-38L Lightning x 66
P-39N2 Airacobra x 11
P-39N1 Airacobra x 10
P-40N5 Warhawk x 56
P-40N26 Warhawk x 6
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 21
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 92
P-51B Mustang x 36
FM-2 Wildcat x 48
F4U-1A Corsair x 93
F4U-1D Corsair x 139
F6F-3 Hellcat x 184
F6F-5 Hellcat x 246

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 63 destroyed <-Most actually destroyed by CAP
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 183 destroyed <-Most actually destroyed by CAP
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 7 damaged <- not a single one touched by CAP

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair II: 2 damaged
Spitfire VIII: 5 damaged
Spitfire VIII: 5 destroyed on ground
Thunderbolt I: 1 damaged
Thunderbolt I: 1 destroyed on ground
Thunderbolt II: 4 damaged
Thunderbolt II: 1 destroyed on ground
Spitfire VIII: 2 damaged
Spitfire VIII: 2 destroyed on ground
F4U-1D Corsair: 4 damaged
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed on ground
P-38J Lightning: 3 damaged
P-38J Lightning: 2 destroyed on ground
P-38L Lightning: 29 damaged
P-38L Lightning: 13 destroyed on ground
P-40N5 Warhawk: 1 destroyed on ground
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 2 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 2 destroyed on ground
P-51B Mustang: 1 destroyed on ground
FM-2 Wildcat: 1 destroyed, 11 damaged
FM-2 Wildcat: 5 destroyed on ground
F4U-1A Corsair: 6 damaged
F4U-1A Corsair: 2 destroyed on ground
F4U-1D Corsair: 25 damaged
F4U-1D Corsair: 5 destroyed on ground
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed, 11 damaged
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed on ground
F6F-5 Hellcat: 3 destroyed, 20 damaged
F6F-5 Hellcat: 11 destroyed on ground
B-25H Mitchell: 8 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 12 destroyed on ground
PBJ-1J Mitchell: 3 destroyed on ground
PB4Y-1P Liberator: 2 destroyed on ground
B-29-1 Superfort: 29 destroyed on ground
C-87 Liberator: 5 destroyed on ground
B-24J Liberator: 45 destroyed on ground
Liberator B.VI: 6 destroyed on ground
PB4Y-2 Privateer: 1 destroyed on ground
P-70A-1 Havoc: 1 destroyed on ground
C-46A Commando: 8 destroyed on ground
SB2C-3 Helldiver: 5 destroyed on ground
Beaufort I: 3 destroyed on ground
TBM-1C Avenger: 12 destroyed on ground
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 6 destroyed on ground
SBD-5 Dauntless: 2 destroyed on ground
PV-1 Ventura: 2 destroyed on ground
B-25D1 Mitchell: 3 destroyed on ground
Dakota III: 3 destroyed on ground
B-24D1 Liberator: 3 destroyed on ground
F-5A Lightning: 3 destroyed on ground
Wellington Ic: 2 destroyed on ground
PBJ-1D Mitchell: 4 destroyed on ground
Liberator II: 2 destroyed on ground
F-7A Liberator: 1 destroyed on ground
Wellington B.X: 2 destroyed on ground
F-5E Lightning: 1 destroyed on ground
TBF-1 Avenger: 2 destroyed on ground
F6F-5N Hellcat: 1 destroyed on ground
A-20G Havoc: 2 destroyed on ground
F6F-3N Hellcat: 1 destroyed on ground
Beaufighter VIf: 3 destroyed on ground
B-25J1 Mitchell: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Airbase hits 60
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 159

Aircraft Attacking:
22 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
23 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
31 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
26 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
3 x Ki-43-IV Oscar sweeping at 10000 feet
37 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
22 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
25 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
25 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
24 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
26 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
28 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
3 x Ki-43-IV Oscar sweeping at 10000 feet
5 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
3 x Ki-43-IV Oscar sweeping at 10000 feet
1 x Ki-43-IIIa Oscar sweeping at 10000 feet
1 x Ki-43-IV Oscar sweeping at 10000 feet
1 x Ki-43-IV Oscar sweeping at 10000 feet
4 x Ki-43-IV Oscar sweeping at 10000 feet
4 x Ki-43-IIIa Oscar sweeping at 10000 feet

CAP engaged:
VC(F)-21 with F6F-3 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Raid is overhead
343rd FG/18th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 42000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
VMF-312 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 8 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
VRF-4F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000
Raid is overhead
VF-17 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 22 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-1 with F4U-1D Corsair (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 20 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
VF-6 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 21 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
VF-7 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
VF-8 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-10 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-13 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-14 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
VF-16 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-18 with F4U-1D Corsair (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
VF-71 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
VF-23 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
VF-24 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-25 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 117 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 9
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 57
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 78

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 15
Seafire L.III x 2
Mosquito FB.VI x 12
Spitfire VIII x 66
Thunderbolt I x 11
Thunderbolt II x 6
Spitfire VIII x 17
F4U-1D Corsair x 21
P-38J Lightning x 14
P-38L Lightning x 57
P-39N2 Airacobra x 10
P-39N1 Airacobra x 7
P-40N5 Warhawk x 50
P-40N26 Warhawk x 5
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 20
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 86
P-51B Mustang x 32
FM-2 Wildcat x 40
F4U-1A Corsair x 88
F4U-1D Corsair x 126
F6F-3 Hellcat x 168
F6F-5 Hellcat x 225

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 6 destroyed <- Most destroyed by CAP
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 21 destroyed <- Most destroyed by CAP
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 7 damaged <- Not a single one destroyed by CAP
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
Mosquito FB.VI: 4 damaged
Mosquito FB.VI: 2 destroyed on ground
Spitfire VIII: 3 damaged
Spitfire VIII: 2 destroyed on ground
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed on ground
P-38L Lightning: 14 damaged
P-38L Lightning: 3 destroyed on ground
P-40N5 Warhawk: 1 damaged
P-40N5 Warhawk: 2 destroyed on ground
P-40N26 Warhawk: 1 destroyed on ground
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 5 damaged
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed on ground
P-51B Mustang: 4 damaged
P-51B Mustang: 2 destroyed on ground
FM-2 Wildcat: 2 damaged
FM-2 Wildcat: 1 destroyed on ground
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 damaged
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed on ground
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 damaged
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed on ground
F6F-3 Hellcat: 15 damaged
F6F-3 Hellcat: 5 destroyed on ground
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 damaged
F6F-5 Hellcat: 2 destroyed on ground
B-25D1 Mitchell: 1 destroyed on ground
B-24J Liberator: 12 destroyed on ground
B-29-1 Superfort: 7 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 15 destroyed on ground
Wellington B.X: 1 destroyed on ground
C-87 Liberator: 2 destroyed on ground
B-25H Mitchell: 3 destroyed on ground
TBM-1C Avenger: 2 destroyed on ground
C-46A Commando: 4 destroyed on ground
P-61A Black Widow: 1 destroyed on ground
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed on ground
Liberator B.VI: 3 destroyed on ground
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed on ground
B-25J1 Mitchell: 1 destroyed on ground
SB2C-3 Helldiver: 1 destroyed on ground
PBJ-1D Mitchell: 1 destroyed on ground
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 destroyed on ground
Avenger II: 1 destroyed on ground
F6F-5N Hellcat: 1 destroyed on ground

Airbase hits 8
Runway hits 14

Aircraft Attacking:
30 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
28 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
18 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VC(F)-21 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters to 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
343rd FG/18th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 42000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
VMF-312 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-4F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
VF-17 with F4U-1A Corsair (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 8 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
24 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-1 with F4U-1D Corsair (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
19 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17880.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F6F-5 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 17 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
14 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
VF-7 with F6F-5 Hellcat (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
10 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
VF-8 with F6F-5 Hellcat (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
10 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-10 with F6F-5 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-13 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 85 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-14 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
21 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 57 minutes
VF-16 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
13 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
11 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-18 with F4U-1D Corsair (12 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 66 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 66 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
VF-23 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-24 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
VF-25 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers

< Message edited by rader -- 2/5/2012 4:18:59 PM >

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 4:55:42 PM

String

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Ouch, that's over 300 4E bombers torched there.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 5:46:04 PM

PaxMondo

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Good show (although certainly there's a fair amount of FOW).

BANZAI!!!

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 6:14:15 PM

Chickenboy

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With ridiculuous overstacking comes outsized risk. Good job makin' him pay, Rader.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 6:40:21 PM

pat.casey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

With ridiculuous overstacking comes outsized risk. Good job makin' him pay, Rader.

Fair enough for the bombs that got through, but Radar's bomber losses seem absurdly low to me.
Against that much CAP he should have paid a much, much higher price to get the bombers through.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 7:47:29 PM

Nemo121

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This is a general point about the game combat model and not ths PBEM in particular. Well, this is the logical end result of the current A2A combat model in 1944/1945.

Damian will confirm that I've shared a scenario with him in which up to 12 US CVs, 6 to 8 BBs and up to 40 CVEs/CVLs are sunk in a single day, despite a CAP of almost 2,000 fighters. Once you pt enough escorts with your bombers those bombers tend to get through with little to o interception. End result, an obliterated CV TF or airbase.

It is a pity that this is the way the model works in the late game but saying that in the technical thread just gets you attacked so I doub it is going to be addressed.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 2/5/2012 7:49:17 PM >

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 7:54:03 PM

aztez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

This is a general point about the game combat model and not ths PBEM in particular. Well, this is the logical end result of the current A2A combat model in 1944/1945.

Damian will confirm that I've shared a scenario with him in which up to 12 US CVs, 6 to 8 BBs and up to 40 CVEs/CVLs are sunk in a single day, despite a CAP of almost 2,000 fighters. Once you pt enough escorts with your bombers those bombers tend to get through with little to o interception. End result, an obliterated CV TF or airbase.

It is a pity that this is the way the model works in the late game but saying that in the technical thread just gets you attacked so I doub it is going to be addressed.

Well said Nemo! I could not agree more ...it definately is serious "flaw" in this game.

< Message edited by aztez -- 2/5/2012 7:55:14 PM >

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 9:35:08 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

With ridiculuous overstacking comes outsized risk. Good job makin' him pay, Rader.

Fair enough for the bombs that got through, but Radar's bomber losses seem absurdly low to me.
Against that much CAP he should have paid a much, much higher price to get the bombers through.

In looking more carefully at the replay, intercepts (or lack thereof) and losses, you may have a point there...

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 9:59:40 PM

desicat

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I posted this in GJ's AAR. I don't know if the air to air combat model is broken, but I do know what is happening over a single airfield in No Japan isn't possible.

"I'm not sure anything can be drawn from the combat model as 3000 fighters over an airfield is not practical.

Operating with dual runway ops and launching 4 a/c per minute it would take 750 minute to launch the cap - over 10 hours. If you launch 8 a/c per minute (1 a/c every 15 seconds from each runway) it would take 5 hours to launch the CAP. It is possible to take off in multiple a/c formations but it increases the taxi and start up times....continuous take-offs are limited by prop wash and wingtip vorticies after a period of time. This doesn't take into account a/c landing from lack of fuel or staging for takeoffs, fueling, and arming.....

Now try to set the landing patterns and approach avenues, formation rally points and altitudes, patrol areas and vector channels, this doesn't even consider the weather.

If one reads Galland's book "The First and the Last" he notes that most a/c are totally out of position during the defense and attack of bomber groups and the best pilots only engage in moments of combat.

So if you want to fix the combat model you first have to fix the number of aircraft available for the raids - on both sides.

Results of the first Schweinfurt raid from Wiki, so the numbers are approximated. This is tiny compared to what has been going on in this game, and it emptied the airfields across the European continent......

Strength
376 B-17s
268 P-47 sorties
191 Spitfire sorties

Approx. 400 Bf 109, Bf 110, Fw 190 and other fighters

Casualties and losses
60 bombers, 3 P-47s, and 2 Spitfires lost
58-95 bombers heavily damaged
7 KIA, 21 WIA, 557 MIA or POW 25-27 fighters"

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 10:53:12 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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Many bases are split into smaller airfields. Hawaii for example has not just one BIG airfield. Same applies to other locations.

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/5/2012 11:02:10 PM

desicat

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A copy of a post I made from GJ AAR concerning AF size:

Ok, it's a box rather than a hex, and it's right in the middle of 8th AF country, but that's just the ones that were spottable in five minutes from 20 miles up - I expect a bunch more will have deteriorated since then. Most of them are will-take-a-USAAF-Bomber-Group size, too, not little things...

I mean, realistically in the Hakodate situation you'd have a large number (10? 20? who knows) of airfields spread out along the southwestern peninsula of Hokkaido - it's not a big airfield, then 45 miles, then a big airfield, then 45 miles etc. Hokkaido is not as flat as Cambridgeshire, but then there's likely to be rather less consideration for whoever's on the land already in this sort of situation...

This is a good post but having been to the area in question the topography doesn't support the airfield density that you propose. I can see possibly a few more makeshift airfields but nothing that could support the density of a/c that are being put into play. This doesn't even discuss the fuel and ammo storage issues that makeshift fields have to deal with. Operating in the weather in the tropics is a different question entirely from operating in Norther Japan.........

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/6/2012 4:41:52 PM

Chickenboy

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BANZAI!!!

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/6/2012 4:42:14 PM

Chickenboy

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BANZAI!!!

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/6/2012 4:42:39 PM

Chickenboy

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BANZAI!!!

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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 2/6/2012 4:55:22 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

... so I doub it is going to be addressed.

I disagree (about working in this, not the attacks

). I think that Michael is working on this along with other "appropriate" consultants. I'm not one of them, appropriately, as I have admittedly no specific expertise in air combat modeling to offer. But I do think this is being at least looked at pretty hard.

There are 4 or 5 AAR's now with data coming in on this and I beleive it now evident that this is not an AFB/JFB issue, but rather something that is distorting late war air results. we'll have to give them a few weeks though ...

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