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Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 2:25:20 PM

Joe D.

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In PCO, movements can be according to what the menu/manual calls Standard Operating Procedure(s).

However, doesn't SOP mean Standing Operating Procedure, i.e., a military unit's SOP manual contains the documentation of all its operating procedures currently in effect, otherwise, what exactly are they "standard" to?

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 2:28:12 PM

Mad Russian

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SOP in this case means Saving Our People. It's the setting you give for the aggressive nature of each unit. Whether they will stand and fight aggressively or be more cautious in their response to enemy units.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 2:33:14 PM

Joe D.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

SOP in this case means Saving Our People. It's the setting you give for the aggressive nature of each unit. Whether they will stand and fight aggressively or be more cautious in their response to enemy units ...

Didn't Stalin order "cautious" units shot for cowardice?

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 2:54:27 PM

Mad Russian

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And so can you!

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 2:55:28 PM

Mad Russian

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There are 3 settings. You will have to have selected SOP in the options page of the main screen to have that choice be active.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 3:07:18 PM

Zakhal

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Does SOP or som other ingame feature add significant delay to order processing? I had two platoons of tanks sitting on open for multiple turns while german ATG took them out one by one. I tried pretty much all orders but they didnt move until 4-5 tanks were taken out by the german 50mm.

Its frustrating things like these that kill the interest to the game. Somthing is ruining the game and you dont really know if its a bug or ingame feature.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 5/21/2011 3:08:58 PM >

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 3:11:46 PM

Mad Russian

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Early war Soviets can have a delay built in. Nothing else has one. Nothing has a multi-turn delay.

Did you try giving them a withdraw order? I agree that you have to play a game enough to learn it's characteristics. For me personally, PCO is worth the effort.

But I'm a bit biased.

Think of the way real world actions take place. That's been the target goal for PCO.

The motto was FUN warGAME. The game should be fun. That means different things to different people. For me it's fun if there is a tremendous amount of historical data in the game but I don't have to deal with it if I don't want to. That's in PCO.

It can be frustrating to have your units get killed and you can't affect that outcome. That's in PCO as well. Because that happens in real life.

When you are screaming at your monitor for that tank to FIRE!!!! And he doesn't. It's in PCO.

When some of your units can see the ATG that's hitting you but your tank is buttoned up and he can't see it. The best you can do is area fire him and hope to pin him. It's in PCO.

When you get the order to advance across that open field and take the objective, knowing just how much this is going to hurt and knowing that you have to do it anyways. Hoping that you can get enough men to the objective to take it. Watching them take hits every step of the way. Pushing, pulling, advancing some with fire orders and others rushing forward. Some to take hits, while those sitting right by them are untouched or killed outright. It's in PCO.

Watching tank battles at point blank range where your tank gets a hit..YES! Only to watch it penetrate but still have the enemy tank fire back...NO! And to watch his hit knock out your tank. It's in PCO.

For me the immersion factor is in PCO. We took more than 2 years for a patch. Which became an update. Which became a game. We did our best to give you immersion +10.

For me, it's all there in PCO.

Keep playing it. By the end of about the 3rd game things start to get a lot easier. Orders start to come more naturally. Things start to work out with more positive results and when they do you can scream YES!! at your monitor as the enemy tank is the one to burn!

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/21/2011 3:25:50 PM >

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 4:37:12 PM

Zakhal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Early war Soviets can have a delay built in. Nothing else has one. Nothing has a multi-turn delay.

Did you try giving them a withdraw order? I agree that you have to play a game enough to learn it's characteristics. For me personally, PCO is worth the effort.

I dont think so. Later in the battle I didnt have any problems with the tanks so who knows what it was. I have to take better notes if it happens again. It was the first battle with late russians so I didnt really expect somthing like this.

Can you actually see the current order (+possible delays) of the platoon? Like see what they are doing right now and why they are doing it? If I could see what they are doing and why I wouldnt have to guess like this.

I dont mind having complex characteristics like this as long as I can understand the reasons behind them. However they shouldnt be hidden in the manual. Better if the info was simply in the user interface like this:

"Order: Advance"
"Order changed to X"
"Delay Y added"
"Order X (delay Y)"

If I just wait a turn and the tanks dont do anything what am I suppose to do next? Wait another turn? Give the same order again? Lots of time wasted because the platoon dont tell the reason why they are not moving.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 5/21/2011 4:46:49 PM >

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 4:48:47 PM

junk2drive

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Rushing increases the chance of bogging or breakdown. It could be that the tanks couldn't move but you would have the symbol in the left HUD panel and the red/green command lines. The other thing would be stunned after being hit, possibly if routed, retreating or withdrawing.

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 4:50:34 PM

junk2drive

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If you click on a unit the left panel tells you what orders they have. I'll find the orders delay in the manual and post it for you.

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/21/2011 4:53:13 PM

junk2drive

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5.4 Order Types

Order Execution Delay: There is no delay in order execution for the German side. On Turn 1
of any battle, there is no delay in order execution for the Soviet side. After Turn 1, Soviet forces
have a 40 second (one phase) delay from the time an order is issued until it takes effect, unless
the Soviet unit started with a Defend order, in which case the delay is only 20 seconds. Note
that if the new order issued is the same as the order the platoon already had, there is no delay.
Only in the case of a new order that is also a change in orders does the delay come into effect.
This models the fact that Soviet command and control at a tactical level was less advanced and
generally less flexible than that of their radio-equipped German counterparts during 1942. Note
that this can be changed when designing a random scenario (Section 4.0).

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/22/2011 4:29:57 AM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
Does SOP or som other ingame feature add significant delay to order processing? I had two platoons of tanks sitting on open for multiple turns while german ATG took them out one by one. I tried pretty much all orders but they didnt move until 4-5 tanks were taken out by the german 50mm.

No, SOP adds no delay and nothing delays orders for multiple turns by design. If you see something that doesn't make sense, just post a save file and one of us can take a look.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/22/2011 4:45:30 AM

Mobius

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From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
"Order: Advance"
"Order changed to X"
"Delay Y added"
"Order X (delay Y)"

If I just wait a turn and the tanks dont do anything what am I suppose to do next? Wait another turn? Give the same order again? Lots of time wasted because the platoon dont tell the reason why they are not moving.

Yeah, I see. Some way to tell you how long the platoon will be delayed. That would be a good idea.

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/22/2011 1:23:24 PM

Chackal

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Joined: 5/15/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Early war Soviets can have a delay built in. Nothing else has one. Nothing has a multi-turn delay.

Did you try giving them a withdraw order? I agree that you have to play a game enough to learn it's characteristics. For me personally, PCO is worth the effort.

But I'm a bit biased.

Think of the way real world actions take place. That's been the target goal for PCO.

The motto was FUN warGAME. The game should be fun. That means different things to different people. For me it's fun if there is a tremendous amount of historical data in the game but I don't have to deal with it if I don't want to. That's in PCO.

It can be frustrating to have your units get killed and you can't affect that outcome. That's in PCO as well. Because that happens in real life.

When you are screaming at your monitor for that tank to FIRE!!!! And he doesn't. It's in PCO.

When some of your units can see the ATG that's hitting you but your tank is buttoned up and he can't see it. The best you can do is area fire him and hope to pin him. It's in PCO.

When you get the order to advance across that open field and take the objective, knowing just how much this is going to hurt and knowing that you have to do it anyways. Hoping that you can get enough men to the objective to take it. Watching them take hits every step of the way. Pushing, pulling, advancing some with fire orders and others rushing forward. Some to take hits, while those sitting right by them are untouched or killed outright. It's in PCO.

Watching tank battles at point blank range where your tank gets a hit..YES! Only to watch it penetrate but still have the enemy tank fire back...NO! And to watch his hit knock out your tank. It's in PCO.

For me the immersion factor is in PCO. We took more than 2 years for a patch. Which became an update. Which became a game. We did our best to give you immersion +10.

For me, it's all there in PCO.

Keep playing it. By the end of about the 3rd game things start to get a lot easier. Orders start to come more naturally. Things start to work out with more positive results and when they do you can scream YES!! at your monitor as the enemy tank is the one to burn!

Good Hunting.

MR

Alright I'm sold :D I haven't bought PCO yet because for some reason I can't beat the tutorial mission in the demo (maybe because I'm a beginner with tactical wargames and I just suck), but after reading this I think it's worth the effort of learning :)

Cheers!

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/22/2011 1:29:26 PM

junk2drive

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From: Arizona West Coast
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Chackal the full game has a new version of the tutorial that should make it easier for you to learn and achieve victory. The boot camp first scenario has also turned out to be a little difficult and a hotfix is posted in the Tech Support forum until we can get it into an update.

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RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/22/2011 1:47:03 PM

Chackal

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Oh that's great, I haven't checked these forums lately (too busy with Combat Command) and I didn't know that!

To be honest I was going to buy PCO anyway. I have played the demo way more than the CMBN full game, that should be a solid indication of which game is superior for me ;)

Cheers!

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Post #: 16

RE: Standard Operating Procedure? - 5/22/2011 8:14:10 PM

rickier65

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Does SOP or som other ingame feature add significant delay to order processing? I had two platoons of tanks sitting on open for multiple turns while german ATG took them out one by one. I tried pretty much all orders but they didnt move until 4-5 tanks were taken out by the german 50mm.

Its frustrating things like these that kill the interest to the game. Somthing is ruining the game and you dont really know if its a bug or ingame feature.

One thing that can cause problems, expecially for the russian player, is the loss of a CO unit. When that happens, your subordinate units may stop and revert to a Defend --> Hold order. It's possible that something like that happened.

If you have any doubts as to whether your unit has an "active" order, click on it and the panel in the lower left will tell you whether the unit is in Engage --> Hold stance (which is what units with an Engage order go to after finishing their move) or a Defend --> Hold order. If units are actively targetting an enemy unit it will also show here.

Another thing you can do is toggle the 'U' key. this will show you the movement paths/or targetting information for your units. they key toggles from selected unit, to selected units platoon, to all units.

Thanks!
rick

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Post #: 17