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Books Today vs Yesterday - 5/26/2011 8:09:19 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		I have noticed more and more that I am finding problems in many of the military history books that I buy. These problems can be:

- spelling/grammar errors - which are irritating, but (usually) nothing more.
- factual errors - these can completely spoil the book, making me doubt what I am reading.

What I would be interested to know is, am I finding more problems because I am actually starting to learn some of this stuff and books have always been like this, or are standards of proof-reading/writing quality coming down.

I would be interested to hear any thoughts?

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805


Post #: 1
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 5/26/2011 8:51:37 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

What I would be interested to know is, am I finding more problems because I am actually starting to learn some of this stuff and books have always been like this, or are standards of proof-reading/writing quality coming down.

My first thought is that standards have lowered since competition between publishers have turned up the market.

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RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 5/26/2011 9:57:39 PM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		Well grammar is now so bad in so many things I read it's a joke. I can say that because mine is so poor, for me to spot errors it's got to be bad.

Factual errors are a completely different story. Like you, I can deal with the grammar but factual errors make me want to throw whatever I'm reading in the trash.

My wife refuses to read some of the newspapers near here because the grammar is so bad.

< Message edited by sulla05 -- 5/26/2011 9:59:23 PM >

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RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 5/26/2011 10:05:26 PM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Depends on the kinds of errors. I have been reading a great deal on the Napoleonic era lately and depending on what I read I am finding some things to be very different. Number of troops and guns in any given battle, casualties, dates of movements.
Most of this information comes from previous works on the subject, diaries and dispatches. Also each authors tends to lend themselves to a different style. Some are conservative in their estimates while some give the wildest estimate.

With the advent of the internet is becoming easier for authors to collect more and more research for any given book. An American or English author can find contacts in France and Austria and Russia and collect more research than ever before and write a Napoleonic work. All of this information together can offer new insights.
Another example would be a book series the mentioned recently on the AE forums. The official naval history of the USN during WW2.
Morrison's work is fantastic but also contains many errors either through being wrong or errors of omission. He had almost no access to German and Japanese records and while he was a rear admiral he did not have a very high intelligence clearence. He had no idea that we had broken the Japanese and German codes. In his books he attributes a lot of our victories to luck and good commanders. He also relied on first hand accounts in the heat of battle and relied on first hand reports.
These contain errors and omissions. He also tended to believe everything he was told as it was told to him and he recorded it. Lastly, since he was indeed a member of the Navy professional courtesy still applied and he did not criticize anyone in the Naval command or Army command or civilian leadership.

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RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 5/27/2011 8:43:19 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		No problem of course with new sources of info or indeed, historians having different perspectives / interpretations on events.

What I am particularly annoyed about is - what seems to me - to be a worsening of standards. Obvious, clear-cut mistakes in the info presented by the writer - together with spelling errors and grammar problems not picked up by the proof-readers.

I must admit I now use the book reviews that Amazon provide more and more.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 5
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 5/27/2011 10:46:27 AM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline 		My biggest pet peeve in books and/or tv shows is bad maps.....I can deal with grammatical errors to a point but seeing a map thats "off" really gets my goat......

Case in point: About two weeks ago the military channel had a show on WW2. They used a cold war map of europe... You know, E and W Germany, Modern Poland, etc etc.. WTF??????? If it was just a one time deal, maybe.But they used it to show changing front lines.....Haven't watched the Military channel since...

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RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 5/27/2011 10:47:30 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
With the advent of the internet is becoming easier for authors to collect more and more research for any given book. An American or English author can find contacts in France and Austria and Russia and collect more research than ever before and write a Napoleonic work. All of this information together can offer new insights.


One name springs to mind here : Adam Zamoyski.

I've got quiet the opposite impression : thanks to the 'Net and the opening up of archives in the former Warsaw Pact countries serious authors can research more deeply and have more and easier contacts with native speakers/researchers etc.

A good example of a modern book where deep research and the 'Net turned conventional wisdom on its head is "Shattered Sword" - the definitive book on Midway.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 7
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/3/2011 6:38:43 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Major newspapers across the USA had to slash budgets and staff over the past three years.  As a result, the major daylies have shrunk in size and there are fewer editors reviewing the stories.  Where once it was rare to find a mistake in grammar, it's become a common occurrence.  (The same thing may be true of magazines, but I only read one and I'm responsible for the editing there.)

I'm not sure about the book publishing industry.  Perhaps it too is feeling the pinch (this seems likely since related industries, like major book retailers, are having a hard time of it).  Thus, publishers may be laying off editors so that "less eyes" reviewing means more mistakes; or maybe there's greater pressure to produce in volume, which always leads to mistakes.

Could it have anything to do with education?  With all the vast sums spent on education, and all the vast years students spend in schools and colleges, you'd think we'd be much more literate, knowledgeable and eloquent than were our ancestors.  So why is it that a bunch of men who were taught at home or tutored by teachers who knew far less than we do about many subjects....ended up writing things like the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Gettysburg Address.  Those guys knew how to express lofty ideals beautifuly, while the best students today can only manage to Twitter, text, and exclaim "WTF?"

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Post #: 8
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/3/2011 8:31:17 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Those guys knew how to express lofty ideals beautifuly, while the best students today can only manage to Twitter, text, and exclaim "WTF?"

Maybe because todays best students don't have lofty ideals?

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RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/3/2011 9:30:42 AM   
sterckxe


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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Those guys knew how to express lofty ideals beautifuly, while the best students today can only manage to Twitter, text, and exclaim "WTF?"

Maybe because todays best students don't have lofty ideals?


I call bs on the notion that the best students today can only manage short text messages. Every medium has its language and the Twitter "language" is simply not meant for expressing long and complicated thought processes.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 10
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/3/2011 10:52:42 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		I major in ancient history. For me, the most detailed accounts for ancient history like Alexander and Xenophon are books written in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. But one thing they lack is good maps. Modern day books on ancient history tend to gloss over the details but provide good maps.

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Post #: 11
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/3/2011 2:26:36 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
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From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy
I major in ancient history. For me, the most detailed accounts for ancient history like Alexander and Xenophon are books written in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. But one thing they lack is good maps. Modern day books on ancient history tend to gloss over the details but provide good maps.


I don't get this obsession with "things in the past used to be better" - upon closer inspection they rarely are and we're just seeing the past through rose-tinted glasses, whether it's wargames or books.

Young engineers starting at our company aren't any dumber than we were 25 years ago and I have trouble keeping up with all the new and exciting historical material that's getting published or becomes available online.

Ok, a couple of examples of some recent and well-received history books :

Europe's Tragedy: A New History of the Thirty Years War - best in-depth analysis of this conflict since ... well, ever.

The Enemy at the Gate: Habsburgs, Ottomans and the Battle for Europe - groundbreaking & myth-busting

Shattered Sword - the definitive myth-busting Midway book.

But I guess no matter how many examples I post : "things back then were better". Right.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 12
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/3/2011 2:52:00 PM   
benpark

 

Posts: 3884
Joined: 8/12/2002
Status: offline 		Printing is far better today than ever before in the field of nonfiction history books. It's cheaper, easier to do and looks better. As far as the text, there will always be books that are better than others. There are simply more of them out there now due to the relative ease in the publication process as well as research over past methods.

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Post #: 13
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/3/2011 3:07:00 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark
Printing is far better today than ever before in the field of nonfiction history books. It's cheaper, easier to do and looks better. As far as the text, there will always be books that are better than others. There are simply more of them out there now due to the relative ease in the publication process as well as research over past methods.


The biggest change has been the 'Net - if I want to investigate the Battle of Breitenfeld today it would take me less than an hour to dig up all the relevant books and websites containing a wealth of info. Back in the eighties we had unreadable Schiller. I rest my case.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

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Post #: 14
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/3/2011 9:54:21 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		Stertxe, I'm not saying that the old ones are better. It's just my personal observation that I can get more detailed information from older books than now, with the exception of maps. Maps and illustrations are one area where modern books put the older ones to shame. I mean Ancient History not WW2. You guys know a lot more than me in that regard.

I have no experience with printing, so I'm guessing maybe better printing technology has somethng to do with it.

Reminds me of my years in tanks in the Marine Corps when the tankers said the M60 was good and the Abhrams was a piece of garbage. They said the same thing about the 9mm taking over the 45 and the M16a2 taking over the M16A1 also. I hated the A1 though. Good riddance.

Shattered Sword is a new book though and I absolutely love it.

< Message edited by ilovestrategy -- 6/3/2011 9:57:59 PM >

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After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
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Post #: 15
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/3/2011 10:04:54 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline 		I agree.  More grammatical errors in books these days.  And as noted above, many more errors in newspapers.

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Post #: 16
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/14/2011 2:51:32 AM   
sparkRyder78j

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 6/13/2011
Status: offline 		You would think there would be less errors thanks to computers but this is not the case.

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Post #: 17
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/15/2011 12:42:32 AM   
morvwilson


Posts: 510
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I have noticed more and more that I am finding problems in many of the military history books that I buy. These problems can be:

- spelling/grammar errors - which are irritating, but (usually) nothing more.
- factual errors - these can completely spoil the book, making me doubt what I am reading.

What I would be interested to know is, am I finding more problems because I am actually starting to learn some of this stuff and books have always been like this, or are standards of proof-reading/writing quality coming down.

I would be interested to hear any thoughts?

Well war, I would say it is some of both.
When I went to publish my book, the proof readers wanted $.04 per word. At 50,000 words, a short book, it adds up fast.

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Post #: 18
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/15/2011 1:01:24 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm not sure about the book publishing industry.  Perhaps it too is feeling the pinch (this seems likely since related industries, like major book retailers, are having a hard time of it).  Thus, publishers may be laying off editors so that "less eyes" reviewing means more mistakes; or maybe there's greater pressure to produce in volume, which always leads to mistakes ...


School history books are also notorious for errors in fact and other miscues; the demand to "publish or perish" without the necessary vetting means more errors make it into print.

Perhaps electronic books -- with "patch" downloads -- are the answer?

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RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/15/2011 3:52:36 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		I agree with school history books sometimes being in error in fact.

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Post #: 20
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/15/2011 10:27:37 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
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From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
The biggest change has been the 'Net - if I want to investigate the Battle of Breitenfeld today it would take me less than an hour to dig up all the relevant books and websites containing a wealth of info. Back in the eighties we had unreadable Schiller. I rest my case.


But the easy access to data on the net also creates a new reality that we’ve not seen before. In the past usually it was only the extreme detail oriented scholars that had the energy and knowhow to spend years digging deep into the archival material to put together an in depth book on their topic of interest.

These days a lot of the publications made are half assed works when compared to the time, care and love that went into older works on similar subjects in the past. Unfortunately this new reality is probably here to stay, since the scholarly community that would review and judge someone’s work in the past is no longer such an extremely detailed group of individuals.

The information age has opened up knowledge to the masses, and unfortunately most of them are lazy when it comes to getting the minutiae right. So sure knowledge is more accessible, and getting the history right is probably much easier these days. But the down side is the professionalism level of those who write the histories has suffered dramatically, as has any form of print professionals these days.

Jim


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RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/15/2011 1:26:08 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
But the down side is the professionalism level of those who write the histories has suffered dramatically, as has any form of print professionals these days.


<edited a typo - we wouldn't want that in a debate about accuracy now, would we :)>

I don't see it - I really don't. Many “definitive books” on WW2, written in the fifties and sixties, are full of factual errors and omissions and it’s only in the current millennium that people like Carlo D’Este, Rick Atkinson, Max Hastings, Anthony Tully and many others have written deeply researched works that truely can be called definitive.

To give you just one wargame related example of the type of material that was available back then : exactly 50 years ago Avalon Hill published their D-Day game. Only after it got published it became apparant there was an entire US division missing in the OOB. This because the single book they had available as background material had somehow forgotten to list it.

I still remember how hard it was to get your hands on *any* books about an obscure subject in the eighties so you cherrished them and as they were often your single source of information they became "the bible" on that subject and that's where I think this "things used to be better in the olden days" idea comes from. My memory of how things *really* used to be is just too good to succomb to that notion.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



< Message edited by sterckxe -- 6/15/2011 3:35:57 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/16/2011 8:22:35 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
The biggest change has been the 'Net - if I want to investigate the Battle of Breitenfeld today it would take me less than an hour to dig up all the relevant books and websites containing a wealth of info. Back in the eighties we had unreadable Schiller. I rest my case.


But the easy access to data on the net also creates a new reality that we’ve not seen before. In the past usually it was only the extreme detail oriented scholars that had the energy and knowhow to spend years digging deep into the archival material to put together an in depth book on their topic of interest.

These days a lot of the publications made are half assed works when compared to the time, care and love that went into older works on similar subjects in the past. Unfortunately this new reality is probably here to stay, since the scholarly community that would review and judge someone’s work in the past is no longer such an extremely detailed group of individuals.

The information age has opened up knowledge to the masses, and unfortunately most of them are lazy when it comes to getting the minutiae right. So sure knowledge is more accessible, and getting the history right is probably much easier these days. But the down side is the professionalism level of those who write the histories has suffered dramatically, as has any form of print professionals these days.

Jim




I cannot agree with this. Books today are no worst or better than yesterday, just different. Maybe they were more detailed, but they were also a lot more dry and boring to read unless you were a scholar.

A good example is my collection of books on Alexander, Xenophon and the Barbarians of Middle Asia that were published all in the 1920s. Very detailed, yes but VERY dry material. Only an ancient history freak like me enjoys them.

The format today is much better IMHO. Books have illustrations and maps. The History Channel had a show(before they stopped doing history) called Batttle 360 that had CGI showing the adventures of the Big "E". I felt like I was in a dive bomber at Midway while watching it.

I stand by my statement. Books today are not better or worst. Just different.

_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 23
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/16/2011 9:00:42 AM   
caaraa

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 4/9/2011
Status: offline 		Factual errors are a completely different story. Like you, I can deal with the grammar but factual errors make me want to throw whatever I'm reading in the trash.


(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 24
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/16/2011 12:20:49 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		There's also a questions of countries opening up their secret archives and writers from some countries finally being allowed to write truth instead of propaganda.

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Post #: 25
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/16/2011 1:33:08 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
There's also a questions of countries opening up their secret archives and writers from some countries finally being allowed to write truth instead of propaganda.


Wasn't there a story in the news recently about Putin "asking" Russian researchers to not dwell too much on the black pages of Russian history ?

The best security remains a Kafkaian approach to archiving : make it so bureaucratic, convoluted and complex that people run around all day without getting anywhere. Been there, done that. For details : ask Viktor Reijkersz from Advanced Tactics fame what he thinks about the Belgian Army archives :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 26
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/16/2011 2:09:36 PM   
hbrsvl

 

Posts: 1155
Joined: 10/2/2002
Status: offline 		warspite 1.-Wow, you really stirred things up-I love it!

After reading all the replies, 99% of which I agree with, I'd like to remind everyone of an old adage: "Don't believe everything you read in"... newspapers, books and now text messages, etc.

One comment about Morison. I believe he did make some corrections in his later volumns-not many, but some.

An example of what drives me(as well as others) to dispair is in the text of Alan D. Zimm's "Attack on Pearl Harbor", pg.255 He refers to "Halsey's 5th Fleet" Does the author not know or is it just an editing mistake, or what?

Thanks to all, Hugh Browne



< Message edited by hbrsvl -- 6/16/2011 2:16:14 PM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/16/2011 7:01:42 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hbrsvl

warspite 1.-Wow, you really stirred things up-I love it!

After reading all the replies, 99% of which I agree with, I'd like to remind everyone of an old adage: "Don't believe everything you read in"... newspapers, books and now text messages, etc.

One comment about Morison. I believe he did make some corrections in his later volumns-not many, but some.

An example of what drives me(as well as others) to dispair is in the text of Alan D. Zimm's "Attack on Pearl Harbor", pg.255 He refers to "Halsey's 5th Fleet" Does the author not know or is it just an editing mistake, or what?

Thanks to all, Hugh Browne


Warspite1

Certainly no intention on my part to start a fight - it was a genuine question, brought on by my increasing frustration at rarely being able to buy a book without there being obvious, glaring errors of a factual nature. I did a review for Amazon fairly recently on "Destroyer Down", the book having really hacked me off for its multitude number of issues - and that was just in the first couple of chapters.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 28
RE: Books Today vs Yesterday - 6/17/2011 11:38:49 AM   
pelle75

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 7/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I major in ancient history. For me, the most detailed accounts for ancient history like Alexander and Xenophon are books written in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.


Seems like only wargamers are interested in numbers and exact order of battles these days, the historians these days are mostly concerned with "soft" information (not data)? At least that is the impression I get (as a non-historian).

(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 29
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