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Current battle files exchange system is no more secure

 
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Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 5/30/2011 3:40:38 AM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I don't know if this happens in 1.08.05 Beta or if it happened before, but this my experience:

France attacks with probe and Prussia defends with withdraw.

One battle file from France; one battle file from Prussia. Battle over. No more exchange of files.

Well, it is sure that in this case the defender knows immediately that the attacker choosed probe.

I don't know if choosing withdraw the defender knows immediately any chit chosen by the attacker or if it happens only in a probe/withdraw situation, but this is a security breach.

Your opinion?

C.

P.s.: for sure, my counterpart in the battle I described choosed his chit in absolute good faith and my observations are addressed only for general purposes and to initiate a discussion about our current battle system.

< Message edited by Cunctator -- 5/30/2011 8:11:24 AM >

_____________________________

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.
Post #: 1
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/8/2011 1:42:48 AM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I just playtested this in pbem mode and didn't see how I as Prussia (client) could know France (host) selected Probe.  I got a battle screen and directed to choose my defense.  I selected Withdrawal, which becomes an Automatic Withdrawal upon clicking Done, and battle is over.  France then gets a Battle Over message after battle file exchange.  Where in this process is it "sure that the defender knows immediately that the attacker choosed probe"?  Anybody else seeing this?

1805, Jan Battle of Magdeburg, Inconclusive
1805, Jan Prussia Has Successfully Withdrawn!
1805, Jan BATTLE:Magdeburg Attacker:France Defender:Prussia

(in reply to Cunctator)
Post #: 2
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/8/2011 9:00:45 AM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Well, I will try to explain better my point of view.

Step 1: France (attacker) chooses probe and sends her battle file to Prussia (defender);
Step 2: Prussia receives the french battle file and the defender chooses withdraw;
Step 3: Prussia click "done" and she knows immediately that the battle is over and that the defender has succesfully retreated;
Step 4: France completes her land combat phase.

The breach: if the prussian player is a cheater he will choose withdraw waiting for the result. If he sees that the battle is over he will have the immediate knowledge of the attacker's choice. If the program asks him simply (without any message of "Battle Over")to send the battle file back to the attacker he will know that the attacker did not choose probe. Knowing this, he can delete the battle file generated in his pc, before sending it back to the attacker, and he can change his choice, knowing that the attacker did not choose probe.

The step 2 is the main reason why Marshall changed the old version of the battle file exchange system in the patch 1.05 (nto sure about the number of the patch).

The defender, when he chooses his chit, should not know the result of his choice, because in this way he will never know the result of his choice that are revealed for the first time to tha attacker when he receives back from the defender the battle file.

In the case of a probe/withdraw situation we are back to the original system.

Am I wrong ?

C.

_____________________________

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 3
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/8/2011 1:57:01 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I see now.  The issue, as always, is possible reloading of the battle file and replaying until you get results you want.  Which is based on knowing what the results are prior to sending your battle file back. 

So, possible solution is for the game to not provide immediate battle results at the end of each round, forcing more file exchanges and lengthing the process.  Is it worth it, that's the question. 

(in reply to Cunctator)
Post #: 4
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/8/2011 3:10:04 PM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		That's exactly the point.
I'm afraid that we cannot consider anymore the battles cheat-proof.

C.



_____________________________

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 5
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/9/2011 11:21:44 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		I would say that if we are jsut dealling with an extra file exchange for probe, then it is worth it.

(in reply to Cunctator)
Post #: 6
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/9/2011 1:04:45 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		Needs to be fixed. Otherwise, this breach will undermine trust and confidence in the game. Even if someone (the defender) is always honest, there is a manifest and likely potential that others, some at least, will perceive a lurking advantage for him because he can either auto-retreat or eliminate probe as an option, thereby increasing his chance for a successful outcome of the battle. When trust goes out of the game, sport follows.

_____________________________

"Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant" -- James Madison
"Yes, you will win most battles, but if you loose to me you will loose oh so badly that it causes me pain (chortle) just to think of it" - P. Khan

(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 7
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/9/2011 2:08:02 PM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I agree completely with Mardonius.
Trust in God, but lock your car!

I'm sure that we need the intervention of Marshall.
I'm not able to put the problem on Mantis but I think that someone should do it.
According to the current level of patch development in 1 or 2 years we will have a perfect system



_____________________________

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 8
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/12/2011 6:07:48 PM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		That time estimate might be about right!

A question, does the log not record that the defender 'loaded the combat file twice!"?

(in reply to Cunctator)
Post #: 9
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/12/2011 8:25:59 PM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		No, I did not find that indication in the log.
It could be interesting to try to reload the battle file 2 times to see what is recorded in the log.
DB if you want I'm available for a PBEM test.
C.

_____________________________

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.

(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 10
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/13/2011 2:56:45 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Needs to be fixed. Otherwise, this breach will undermine trust and confidence in the game. Even if someone (the defender) is always honest, there is a manifest and likely potential that others, some at least, will perceive a lurking advantage for him because he can either auto-retreat or eliminate probe as an option, thereby increasing his chance for a successful outcome of the battle. When trust goes out of the game, sport follows.


I agree, because this game is so time consuming and such a commitment, trust is highly important, no one wants to spend two years playing a game to feel like that got cheated.

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 11
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/13/2011 4:29:13 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Would one additional file exchange for the first round of battle each day be sufficient?  This would prevent the defender from immediately knowing battle results, hence attacker chit selection.   Subsequent rounds each day would not need an additional file.

Nobody seems to be concerned about the current battle file security for die rolls each round and taking casualties.  Is this OK, or does Marshall need to reconsider anything else to make battle file exchanges skeaky clean? 

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 12
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/13/2011 6:12:19 PM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		It would be sufficient to add one more exchange of battle files from the defender to the attacker.
The defender chooses his chit then he sends it ignoring the result that are revealed to the recipient attacker for the first time.
Now it goes in this way for every chit pick, not for the withdrawal.
In this way the system is secure.

@ pzgndr: Regarding the dice rolls I know that they are pregenerated for the entire battle since the first creation of battle file (and the attacker does not know the rolls until he receives back from the defender), so they are cheat-proof; aren't they?
Regarding taking casualties....I'm not sure to have understood the subject.

C.

_____________________________

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 13
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/13/2011 8:25:13 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		DancingBear or I will add something to Mantis about an additional file exchange for Marshall to track, but I just wanted to make sure everything else about battle files is working to players' satisfaction.  The pregenerated results seem to be working fine.

(in reply to Cunctator)
Post #: 14
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/13/2011 10:40:30 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Added to Mantis as issue #792.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 15
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 6/30/2011 10:22:11 PM   
DCWhitworth


Posts: 676
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: Norwich, England
Status: offline 		Actually reviewing this it is even more broken than suggested.

If you pick withdraw then you get to see the die roll AND the bonus you get from the attackers option. If you get +1 he's picked echelon or outflank, if you don't he's picked assault or escalated assault.

While you may not know the exact chit he's picked you can be sure to pick a chit that should win (cordon or defend respectively most likely).

_____________________________

Regards
David

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 16
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 7/1/2011 1:30:15 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		Good point David. Why it is essential that the defender send their chit choice to another trusted player, as in the early days...
best Mardonius

_____________________________

"Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant" -- James Madison
"Yes, you will win most battles, but if you loose to me you will loose oh so badly that it causes me pain (chortle) just to think of it" - P. Khan

(in reply to DCWhitworth)
Post #: 17
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 7/9/2011 9:36:08 AM   
gazfun


Posts: 1046
Joined: 7/1/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline 		This issue is a major concern to me, the matter of security is imperative as especially has people put a lot of time in the game, only to have someone who has IMO no respect for others, anyone who even considers this as alternative.

Any wiff of this in a game and the player should be kicked out so fast his head will spin.

_____________________________


(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 18
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 7/9/2011 11:42:41 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Any thinking of trying this, should be aware that relaoding the combat file will result in a message appearing the in log, and will have some explaining to do.

(in reply to gazfun)
Post #: 19
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 7/9/2011 3:28:08 PM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I'm afraid that you are wrong.
I tested it.
It is sufficient to delete the new battle file (generated after you choose withdraw, acting as the defender) and to reload the old battle file (the first file received by the attacker).
Voilà, you have another occasion and you can change your chit without leaving any trace in the log.
Believe me, the system is broken.
C.

_____________________________

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.

(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 20
RE: Current battle files exchange system is no more secure - 7/11/2011 2:43:49 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Ok, you're right. However, I notice that Marshall has just listed this as fixed in 1.08.06.

(in reply to Cunctator)
Post #: 21
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