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SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 2:33:25 AM   
ADB123

 

Posts: 1559
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Status: offline 		While idly checking out base VP values on the map I was stopped in my tracks when I happened to look at Salt Lake City. The base is worth 15000 Victory Points to the Japanese!



Sure, you might think - just who is going to be able to capture SLC?

But think about it, a crafty Japanese player could land at Coos Bay, which is fairly isolated and unlikely to be defended by an Allied player. Coos Bay starts out with a Level 2 Air Field. If the Japanese player brought along several Paratroop Regiments, and a couple of long range Transport Plane Squadrons, he could drop the Paratroops on SLC (and at Ogden, to block the nearest Railroad base), fly in a Base Force, fly in some supply and Fighter planes, and hold the base until the 15K points took effect.

Do that late enough in 1942 and the Japanese player could get an auto victory...

Hmmm...
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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 3:06:14 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Status: offline 		Try it and send us the screenshot

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 3:07:17 AM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		Yep, I think you have the makings of one great AAR there...

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 3:42:00 AM   
topeverest


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Status: offline 		Yup,

Just try to get there...I personally like haveing all the bases in USA worth similar amounts. ALMOST makes it worth going for if you are playing strict VP's!

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 4:32:58 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The Allies get extra units if the Japanese land troops on the US West Coast. 

It would be interesting to try, but I doubt you could succeed, even against the AI.

Bill


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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 6:28:42 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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Status: offline 		I didn't know AE had a Mormon development team.

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 1:56:23 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The Allies get extra units if the Japanese land troops on the US West Coast. 

It would be interesting to try, but I doubt you could succeed, even against the AI.

Bill



Only south of Vancouver.

There have been discussions here and in PM about a North American campaign moving across Canada, then south, avoiding activation until the last moment. Crazy risky yes, but it would be interesting. Against the AI it might work.

And strat bombing of the Seatac area is possible from north of the line as well, for strat bombing VPs.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 6/6/2011 1:57:16 PM >

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 3:57:45 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		Not only do the Allies get reinforcement but they have a two or three armor divisions that are restricted to the east coast. Even though they only have M3 grant tanks, that is like facing king tigers to anything the Japanese could muster. My experience is that attacking Allied armor with Japanese infantry or tanks is a no go. Even 4 or 5 to 1 AV odds seems to be an exercise in futility. Man, would I love an opportunity to use a full armored division vs my Japanese opponents. My guess is that an invasion of the West Coast would be a disaster.

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 4:05:21 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

My guess is that an invasion of the West Coast would be a disaster.


I largely agree, except in the case of perfect timing when a 15k VP bag of a SLC happens a week before auto-vic time, or similar. There's no way the Japanese could take any substantial portion of continental NA and hold it.

Bombing Seatac from an off-shore northern air base could work, for a while.

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 4:57:37 PM   
LoBaron


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Status: offline 		This is a gamble, and even then can only be accomplished after a PzB-like string of victories against the USN.

You´d have about every air unit stationed on the WC for training or PP reasons against you, and at the end of 42 theres many of those around.
Countering this you´d have to get a damaged airbase operational - or use Mavis flying boats for the shuttle, which is your most precious transport asset.
You would have to assume that SLC is completely undefended (in my case it is not, its a training base with at least some AV for defense from a base force)
and fly in troops with high fatigue because of the long journey on amphibs and the landing.
The conquest has to happen fast - I will CAP/LRCAP SLC as soon as I got the slightest indication of Japanese troops dropping on the place and have every unit
in strat mode moving there in no time, so this will have to suffice in 2 days in case you play 2 day turns.

The cost in troops would be "low" in theory, but must at least contain a base force to support a transport plane fleet, enough ground troops to hold Coos Bay, and
all crack paras you can muster to drop on SLC AND Ogden.
The cost in ships would be much higher than ground troops, and in my opinion needs complete naval domination as a prerequisite, so its only an option in case you were
able to give the USN a trashing before the operation starts.

I´d give such an operation a pretty low probability of success, even against an Allied player with no experience. You depend on too many things you cannot know in
advance, and thats a pretty bad argument to burn tons of fuel to move a major part of the Japanese navy all the way to WC.

You need to take risks to win as the Japanese player, but as I said at the beginning, this is a gamble.

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 8:13:19 PM   
khyberbill


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quote:

Do that late enough in 1942 and the Japanese player could get an auto victory...

I send many my restricted units that cant be bought out to SLC and other cities for two reasons; mainly to get them out of the way but also to prevent what you just mentioned. Any JFB that tried that with me might find an armored division there. Eventually most are withdrawn such as those two armored divisions that show up on the WC but that is in 44.

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 9:02:41 PM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		I think there are two schools of thought going on here.  The original post suggested landing at Coos Bay, OR which would trigger the US extra forces.  Landing in Canada would not, but a Canadian operation would still put you a long ways from SLC.

Even without the extra reinforcements triggered, the US gets a lot of forces in 1942 intended for somewhere in the Pacific, those would be showing up and immediately available to attack Japanese forces trying to make their way across Canada.  Canada also has a home defense army that would have to be contended with.

I remember back in the WitP days I think it was Mogami who had a bet that he could successfully take San Francisco.  He did an AAR on it.  It was a well planned operation, but it ultimately failed.

I'd love to see an AAR on a US invasion in AE.  I think even with a special scenario with a weakened USN from the start it would be very difficult, but I think it would be a fascinating read.

Bill


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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 9:36:13 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
I didn't know AE had a Mormon development team.

Far as Babes goes, Joe Lief is Mormon, Jenny is Mormon, MO ain't quite Mormon, but Joe's working on it. I'm Catholic and we we have an Orthodox Jew (sideburns and everything) in the mix. There's Marines from every possible religious persuasion.

Martin Luther would be proud.

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 11:12:40 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
I didn't know AE had a Mormon development team.

Far as Babes goes, Joe Lief is Mormon, Jenny is Mormon, MO ain't quite Mormon, but Joe's working on it. I'm Catholic and we we have an Orthodox Jew (sideburns and everything) in the mix. There's Marines from every possible religious persuasion.

Martin Luther would be proud.


I'm a Druid.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 14
RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/6/2011 11:56:50 PM   
Sredni

 

Posts: 705
Joined: 9/30/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Looking at it objectively you would think the japanese attacking mainland america would accrue negative victory points.

I'm not even an amateur historian, and it's not even my own country but... if japanese attacked american home soil wouldn't it have resulted in massive redeployment with a shift in priority from europe to aisa. And if suing for peace was the original japanese goal an attack on america itself (instead of just some foreign territories the average joe couldn't give two figs for) would be very counterproductive.

If the japanese invaded and held (for any length of time) actual towns/cities on continental USA, with the inevitable atrocities perpetrated by the japanese army wherever it went, I don't see any result but a much more terrible outcome then historical for japan.

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/7/2011 12:05:05 AM   
bigred


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Try it and send us the screenshot

lol

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/7/2011 12:06:16 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123
Do that late enough in 1942 and the Japanese player could get an auto victory...



A perfect example of the kind of nonsense engendered by "Victory Points" and "auto-victory conditions". Basically it encourages a "to He11 with reality..., let's find a loophole and try to weasel through it" style of play...

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/7/2011 12:17:47 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		And players also have the option to ignore victory points and keep playing as long as they want.  They are there for those who want the closure of having a declared victor but victory can be an open ended question too.

Ultimately, this is a game and games have victory conditions.

Bill


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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/7/2011 2:00:18 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

And players also have the option to ignore victory points and keep playing as long as they want.  They are there for those who want the closure of having a declared victor but victory can be an open ended question too.

Ultimately, this is a game and games have victory conditions.

Bill




Yes they do, Bill. But the "auto-victory" of January 1st, 1943 belongs to a game where the Japanese DID NOT launch a surprise attack without declaring war and killing Americans. And that scenario is not in this game....

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/7/2011 3:09:11 AM   
caaraa

 

Posts: 19
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Status: offline 		The Allies get extra units if the Japanese land troops on the US West Coast.


(in reply to mike scholl 1)
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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/8/2011 4:57:52 AM   
AcePylut9

 

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Status: offline 		You know all those restricted US armor and inf divs in the white West Coast (R) hq's? I turned their reinforcements off and railed them to slc at the start of the war and promptly forgot about them. Please invade SLC with mininal weenie forces, so I'z can shock attack those suicidal empire soldiers into oblivian. :D

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/8/2011 4:41:27 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123
Do that late enough in 1942 and the Japanese player could get an auto victory...



A perfect example of the kind of nonsense engendered by "Victory Points" and "auto-victory conditions". Basically it encourages a "to He11 with reality..., let's find a loophole and try to weasel through it" style of play...



Yep, no fan of auto victory. It just ruins the game. There would have been no autovictory in the real deal....

I like to see the whole campaign played out. Don't worry about VP at all. I will know in the end if I have been whipped....

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/14/2011 8:09:36 PM   
Smeulders

 

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Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline 		A small necro, but dud anyone notice that the emergency reinforcements for the USA arrive in Salt Lake City ? That's 4 divisions arriving at the target the day you get ashore. Good luck to the paratroopers.


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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/14/2011 9:26:49 PM   
Rainer

 

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From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		crsutton:

quote:

auto victory. It just ruins the game.


It does not ruin the game. Not at all. We all know that.
Potentially misleading for newbies.

< Message edited by Rainer -- 6/14/2011 9:33:10 PM >

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/14/2011 11:29:21 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

crsutton:

quote:

auto victory. It just ruins the game.


It does not ruin the game.



It easily can ruin the game by encouraging the Japanese player to throw caution to the wind and try crazy things to achieve it. Then if it doesn't work, he quits on January 2nd, 1943. That ruins the game.

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/14/2011 11:37:19 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

crsutton:

quote:

auto victory. It just ruins the game.


It does not ruin the game.



It easily can ruin the game by encouraging the Japanese player to throw caution to the wind and try crazy things to achieve it. Then if it doesn't work, he quits on January 2nd, 1943. That ruins the game.


If so, that's a fault of the player, not the game.

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/15/2011 12:36:00 AM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
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Status: offline 		Mike Scholl:

quote:

It easily can ruin the game by encouraging the Japanese player to throw caution to the wind and try crazy things to achieve it. Then if it doesn't work, he quits on January 2nd, 1943. That ruins the game.


What a wonderful piece of applied logic



< Message edited by Rainer -- 6/15/2011 12:37:15 AM >

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/15/2011 1:01:09 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
It easily can ruin the game by encouraging the Japanese player to throw caution to the wind and try crazy things to achieve it. Then if it doesn't work, he quits on January 2nd, 1943. That ruins the game.


There is a very easy way around it. It's called "house rules". If you don't like the VP thing, only play with players who agree to keep playing regardless of auto victory. IMO, you're making a mountain out of something I wouldn't even call a molehill. It's an option you can ignore.

Bill

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/15/2011 2:00:54 AM   
erstad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
It easily can ruin the game by encouraging the Japanese player to throw caution to the wind and try crazy things to achieve it. Then if it doesn't work, he quits on January 2nd, 1943. That ruins the game.


There is a very easy way around it. It's called "house rules". If you don't like the VP thing, only play with players who agree to keep playing regardless of auto victory. IMO, you're making a mountain out of something I wouldn't even call a molehill. It's an option you can ignore.

Bill


Exactly. In witp-classic I had two autovictories, but in both cases offered to play on. One opponent took me up (and we went to March 1946) and the other decided he was done. But it's a good think to discuss up front to make sure expectations are matched.

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RE: SLC = 15K VP? - 6/15/2011 2:39:31 AM   
AcePylut9

 

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Status: offline 		There's no way to force a player to continue playing.  House Rules or not.  So if a Japanese player wants to try it and agrees to a HR of no auto-victory, that doesn't mean he won't quit on Jan 2, '43

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