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Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/6/2011 9:55:15 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		Hi this is the overall situation at the end of soviet turn 8.
My losses are now around 1.6 million

In the North the German spearheads are about to cross the Volkow.

In the center they are a couple of hewes away frow tula.

in the South they are at the gates of stalino

This is the first turn of august 1941.
I did not play a robin strategy And I tried to slow down the Germans as much as possible. Many successfull counterattacks including on mobile divisions. yet at this stage the game is already just about lost. My industry is about to get wiped out. I evacuated what i could but that's not enough. Germans are two or three mons ahead of schedule.

I'm gonna try to to hold Moscow and Leningrad as long as possible. in the south, looks like i'll have to run all the way to Stalingrad and hope the mud hits before the germans get there.






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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/6/2011 11:25:03 PM   
karonagames


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quote:

in the south, looks like i'll have to run all the way to Stalingrad and hope the mud hits before the germans get there.


You don't have to go that far. From Kharkov southwards you can figure out where the "Mud line" is; where he will 100+ Mps from a railhead and therefore be isolated and vulnerable to surrender if attacked during mud turns. Usually the line is about 3-4 hexes east of the Kharkov-Stalino line.

I doubt he can do many more HQ build-ups south of Bryansk, and everything east of the Dnepr will be short on supply.

Also the Crimea will be a potential thorn in his side - use it for what it was - an airbase to bomb Ploesti into the stone age.

Also those spaced out divisions he is using on his flanks will allow you to slip cavalry and tank brigades into his rear to displace HQs and Airbases.


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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 1:36:00 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		That's for the future.
So far my industry is getting mauled, and Im trying to save whatever I can. That's only early august.
I hope to evacuate enough industry to remain above 200 armament. and some heavy industry too.

basically every factory on a line leningrad Moscow rostov is at risk by mid august and chances are you'll most probably lose all that by mud, if your opponent uses HQ build ups.

so the only point that matters is how many factories, and how many troops you manage to get out of there. the only thing you can do is buy some time to evacuate as many factories as possible and run where there are no factories ar risk..

With the loss of  leningrad Moscow kharkov rostov, your mapower is going to be hit hard. in addition to the the loss of the armament factories so you have to preserve your army as much as possible.

I should have adapted a few tuns earlier. I could have saved a few more factories and saved some troops.

i got some success on his flankig divisios, and on his spearheads but the result is merely to present the germans with more targets to hit and all the troops are badly needed to cover the factories anyway.

After one months ond a half of campaign is spearheads are between two and three months in advance of schedule :( . the troops i send to slow him down are just gobled. and there are so many factories at risk i cannot affor to redeploy troops by rail.

IMO the least bad solution for the soviets is just to concentrate everything on evacuating and forget anything else; You'll lose everything from leningrad moscow to rostov anyway so , so You'd better try to save as much as you can so You may be abe to lauch a wibter offensive, and may have a chance to survive into 42.

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 1:50:08 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios
IMO the least bad solution for the soviets is just to concentrate everything on evacuating and forget anything else; You'll lose everything from leningrad moscow to rostov anyway so , so You'd better try to save as much as you can so You may be abe to lauch a wibter offensive, and may have a chance to survive into 42.


I think you're being a bit pessamistic...while I think it could be tough to save Lgrad, Moscow, and Rostov, I hardly think that all of them are doomed. I also think that pinning too many hopes on a blizzard offensive with the current patches is a mistake--best you can do is bloody the Germans a bit, and it gives you a few months to rebuild your forces, but you can't expect miracles.

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 1:55:55 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		Turn 9 two of the cities of the stalino group have been overrun.
I also lost the Southern leningrad city hex with all it's factories.
I'm retreating my forces on the Dnepr to avoid having them all pocked. Western front is also withdrawing back towards moscow.

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 5:52:50 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios
IMO the least bad solution for the soviets is just to concentrate everything on evacuating and forget anything else; You'll lose everything from leningrad moscow to rostov anyway so , so You'd better try to save as much as you can so You may be abe to lauch a wibter offensive, and may have a chance to survive into 42.


Now you are sounding a bit defeatist. You have just had a beating by one of the best German players. I can understand that you feel somewhat demoralized, but that does not mean that the Soviets don't stand a chance.

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 7:23:26 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		Getting a beating by skilled player, and i'm certainly getting a good one is one thing But IMO that's not the issue here.

You just have to realize that in 1941 against a skilled german player, and Pelton certainly is one you're most likely going to lose everything from leningrad, moscow to rostov, and lose it very fast. IMO there's not much you can do about it, So you'd better adapt and act in consequence if you want to stay in the game.


just have a look at what you're doing against Q ball. Rinse an repeat but you're likely to get similar results over and over again.

Of course I'd be interested to see a successful defense by a soviet player against that kind of soviet offensive to get some ideas about how to do it.

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 7:31:03 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Q-ball made a number of critical errors that can be corrected. Not a game balance issue. I suspect you did as well.

Pelton is a good player, but I think I have pretty good idea of how to shut down his playstyle.



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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 7:49:56 PM   
hfarrish

 

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...which hopefully we will see soon in an AAR, right?


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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 8:04:02 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		I'd be happy to hear your ideas any suggestion would be welcome.
I tried to slow down the panzer spearheads but my troops got vaporized
i had reinforced leningrad heavily and did some sucessful couterattacks there, but that just did not help, they just got there and burst through my defenses and fortifications to the city itself .

Panzers can go extremely fast with HQ build up and every factory from leningrand to moscow to rostov is at risk by mid august. I cut off some mobile divisions several times, successfully counterattacked many times, routed a few german motorized units in the process. Yet by mid august the Germans have burst through my defenses taken stalino an dnepropetrovsk and leningrad with their industry, and are coming within reach of moscow.

You just do not have the troops nor the rail capacity to seriously cover or evacuate your industry. so far trying to fight has proved rather ineffective with the loss of many troops and also many factories. focusing mainly on factory evacuation and fighting only when necessary to get time to save as many factories as possible might get better results as you may save a few more factories and preserve your armies so that  you will compensate for the loss of the cities.

any ideas to do better would be welcome.

So far my assesment of the situation is that in 41 the Germans will more or less take everything from leningrad to Moscow to rostov. The question being, how long it will take him to do that, and how much you will lose or manage to evacuate in the process.

So If somone could show me the some light in the darkness i'd be most grateful :)



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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 8:04:03 PM   
Flaviusx


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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 8:11:04 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Arsta, my observation is that Pelton's flank security isn't amazing. The way to stop him is to take advantage of that with raids, and demolish his rickety logistical underpinnings. I would take every cavalry division I've got, place them in good spots, and plunge as far in the rear as I can go with them, without worrying about their supply lines, and make him chase them down. Pay close attention to his rail lines and march distances to same. It's a mathematical certainty where he needs to be in order to spam HQ buildups.

As far as factories go, let the little ones burn. Mogilev, Gomel, Kiev, Odessa, and the like, just ignore 'em. Keep railing stuff forward. Evacuate major centers only, probably starting with Leningrad. Get out the plane, vehicle and tank factories first. Only spend enough rail to get out half the plane and tank factories in any given location; they will rebuild. After that, armaments, and after that heavy industry.

Above all, keep the reinforcements flowing. And hug the German.

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 8:50:35 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios

Of course I'd be interested to see a successful defense by a soviet player against that kind of soviet offensive to get some ideas about how to do it.



Not trying to sound douchy here, but since you ask, you could start with my AARs. Se signature, plus here is one more I didn't have room for in the sig.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2795466

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 9:38:50 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		Well the point is how you to deal with those concentrated deep thrusts on your industry backed by massive use of HQ build up...... You need to adapt to adapt your defensive tactics to this kind of approach.
Anyway I have a few ideas.

Gross deutscland was routed many turns ago so there is some hope, and it is going to be a long war anyway :)



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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 9:45:42 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Above all, keep the reinforcements flowing. And hug the German.


I really think this is the biggest lesson you should learn from this one, Arsta. Your best defense is a strong one in front of wherever the panzers are. Pile them up high and deep right up next to every panzer you can find. Everywhere else can just be screening units.


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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 10:23:44 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Yeah, you don't need to be super strong everywhere, it's fairly clear where his panzer concentrations are, so concentrate against those. He's screening fairly substantial parts of the front.

He may chose to shift direction if you do this and hit you on a previously screened part of the front, but that's going to cost him time and energy and possibly leave him out of position to do a buildup. It's very predictable where these can happen based on his rail lines; if you can channel his advance to a supply vacuum where the railheads are too far away to support a buildup he's going to slow down markedly.

And I really think you need to go medieval with you cavalry units and send them past his thin screens. These little babies are incredibly mobile. Many months ago in a playtest I was able to get a half dozen of them behind AGC via the northern edge of the Pripyet marshes and wreck the rail lines a good 20 hexes behind the Axis front line. That's what happens with lax flank security. Andy has done some crazy stuff with the cav as well. You need to make him react to your moves and not just passively receive his offensives. Chasing down cavalry with widely spread out infantry screens is a losing proposition for the Axis.

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 10:31:10 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		Problem is the pace of advance.
As for evacuation of tank factories only a couple were evacuated in each. As you say they will rebuild and you usually end up with more tanks than you can use anyway.

As for armament and heavy inindustry, Dnepropetrovsk, the Stalino group, Leningrad ans several minor factories, are total losses.

Pelton's strategy is 100% committed to making deep thrusts against factories massively using HQ build ups. Basically he goes for a sudden death strategy.

I've had some success against his flanks but it's been pretty ineffectual so far. However many of his divisions have been retreated and CVs are low giving me some opportunities for counterattacks. I've used my cavalry and whatever I could to cut off his spearheads. I've been succesfull several times, but it had no real significant effect, and this has cost me several divisions and some troops.

Moreover with the depth of his penetrations I have to retreat or face the risk of having the bulk of my best divisions cut off.

However this approoach leaves some interesting possibilities for the soviet but you need some creative thinking, and you have to optimize each rail move.

The problem is whether or not I'll be able to evacuate enough factories to remain in the game, which is going to be the focus of the next 3 or 4 turns......





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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 10:38:22 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Yes, unfortunately, much of what I'm advocating has to be done in a fresh game (the factory evacuation in particular has to be planned out in advance, with Leningrad being the first place to get evacuations starting on turn 3.)



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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 10:38:53 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

Chasing down cavalry with widely spread out infantry screens is a losing proposition for the Axis.



I know I hate it when it happens to me.


< Message edited by Mynok -- 6/7/2011 10:39:56 PM >

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 10:42:51 PM   
Mynok


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Rather than thinking of cutting of spearheads so much, think rather of getting mobile cav units into his deep backfield and cutting his rail lines back there. Waaaaay in the back. The only thing he has that can catch and kill cav are his panzers and mot divs. You can keep your cav running about back there for quite a while unless he brings some back to take care of it.

The more I think about that happening, the less I like the sound of it as an Axis player. Man, that would be a royal pain. Cutting that rail line is no different than cutting the supply line closer to the front.


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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 10:47:14 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

The more I think about that happening, the less I like the sound of it as an Axis player. Man, that would be a royal pain. Cutting that rail line is no different than cutting the supply line closer to the front.



Oh, no.

It's much better. It's stops his HQ buildup spam cold. Since this is actually calculated from the distance to the railhead.

A temporarily isolated spearhead up front can reestablish supply easily most of the time, and be good to go, but if the railhead is pushed waaaaay back thanks to cuts, they'll be crawling forward at 25mps or whatever without the benefit of buildup spam.



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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 10:52:19 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		yes, I think this approach can be derailed as it has a number of weaknesses, but you need to take dispositions from turn 1 to face it and act accordingly in your deployments and evacuations...

also I need to learn more detail about the movement and supply mechanichs.

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/7/2011 10:54:45 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

The more I think about that happening, the less I like the sound of it as an Axis player. Man, that would be a royal pain. Cutting that rail line is no different than cutting the supply line closer to the front.



Oh, no.

It's much better. It's stops his HQ buildup spam cold. Since this is actually calculated from the distance to the railhead.

A temporarily isolated spearhead up front can reestablish supply easily most of the time, and be good to go, but if the railhead is pushed waaaaay back thanks to cuts, they'll be crawling forward at 25mps or whatever without the benefit of buildup spam.




Very true. Another excellent point.......now I'm quite looking forward to you and Pelton going at it and see how he counters.


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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/8/2011 8:13:34 AM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		Turn 10 Rostov has fallen, The Germans have broken onto the northern side of the Neva, and are now adjacent to to kharkov and voroshilovgrad.

s

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/8/2011 1:40:57 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		Well, I'm now running on most of the front, to avoid seing my forces surrounded.
Otherwise I'm trying to evacuate whatever I can. If I'm lucky I'll end up with a little over 200 armament factories left.
Moscow should fall in a few turns. Time for the panzers to get there and have HQ build up. I'll see how much I can save from there. Most probably not a lot.

So bacically around the 20th of august I've lost everything except moscow west of the line leningrad, moscow Rostov.

Trying to resist actually made the matters worse. I used up some rail capacity moving troops to the front where they basically made little difference. A few successful counterattacks do not compensate for the extra factories I could have saved. Also those reinforcements holding the front could have been put to better use covering factories deep in the rear. It might have gained one extra turn of factory evacuation. Also, it would have provided less targets thus keeping my losses lower.



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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/8/2011 2:34:02 PM   
Ketza


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Status: offline 		Pelton can be stopped there is an AAR that shows how its done.

Perhaps he learned a few new tricks since then however.

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/8/2011 3:44:22 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		Imo he's improved is to play
His forces are conentrated in 3 massive groups that are 100% focused on getting as deep in soviet territorry as the game mechanics allow it to destroy the factories before they can possibly be evacuated, ignoring whatever losses  may be inflicted. And I'm quite sure there are still a couple of tricks he may not have thought about to get even farther and faster There's just not enough rail potential to take those factories out and by mid august all your factories up to Moscow and rostov are at risk. you do not have the forces to cover all of them

I can fight and get some success in many places. Yet this is largely pointless as it won't save the factories which is all what it is about. worse still if you try to fight  you're likely to use some rail capacity to bring reinforcements in instead of evacuating factories. and your forces get gobbled.

There are some weaknesses and this approach offers some opportunities,  but you have to be ready for that style of deathride assault from turn 1 and act accordingly. You also need to master the rules about movemnt point supply distance...... And count your beans carefully if you want to stant a resonable chance

The point is that  industrial potential will be wrecked so that my offensive capabilities will get crippled in the long run, however, the soviet army should remain a strong force. So basically I'm pretty sure i'll manage to remain in game. But Berlin will probably be very far away by 45.







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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/9/2011 8:52:37 PM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		Tun 11.
In the North the northern Leningrad hex resists. I evacuated a couple of divisions from the pocket and withdrew a few units allowing the finns to advance. It might not have been the wisest move but this way I saved a few troops.

I'll see how things turn out in the next few turns.

Around moscow Wester front retreated from smolensk to a position in front of Moscow.
Soome German armor followed and got a bloody nose. One mot division routed a panzer and a cavalry divisions retreated.
Some reinforcements arrived to help hold moscow.

In the south most of the Southwester front seems to have escaped the forming pocked. I'm trying to recreate some sort of front line. A couple of successfull counter attacks were launched.

I reoccupied Rostov that was evacuated after the destruction of the Factories.

Most of the southern front has taken reguge in Crimea.

I'm trying to bring some order into the general mess.

I recieved a new spam load of skeleton divisions this turn. they will not be operational before several turns and will draw heavily on my manpower.

I railed what I could towards the front, while some factories kept going East.

German tank strength has fallen sharply by now. Less than 1500 operational. However the deatride towards my factories was quite successful. I could probably have saved a few more factories but there's no certainty about that. You cannot take everything out anyway. Yet it might have been possible sazve a couple dozen extra factories all types included, but then maybe not.

Anyway, the red army is still there.


< Message edited by Arstavidios -- 6/9/2011 9:07:38 PM >

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RE: Arstavidios Vs Pelton Soviet perspective - 6/10/2011 11:04:53 AM   
Arstavidios

 

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Status: offline 		Tun 12
Losses so far are about 2 000 000 soviets against 400 000 Germans. the Germans have lost 2500 tanks. they have about 1200 operational tanks left.

In the North, Germans broke to the leningrad pocket port. What's left of my forces there is now cut off. i have about 45000 men left there.

I launched a couple of counterattacks against infantry divisions.

I'm retrating slowly. The fins will likely be freed up next turn.

In the center.  The germans attacked towards Moscow. They approached a couple of hexes but did not manange to cut it off yet. So i could again rail a few factories out this turn. Better than nothing.

I counterattacked where I could and managed to get a few german units to withdraw. I brought a few reinforcements by rail.

In the south, I launched a couple of counter attacks and retreated a few infantry divisions. got my first guards infantry division down there. Southwestern front managed to escape encirclement and turned around to counterattack where it could.

Rostov is still in my hands but with the factories destroyed it's lost much of its importance.

In Crimea I'm fortifying ans reorganisind. The Germans launched an assault but were repulsed.

Some organisation is slowly appearing along the front.It will take several turns to have something properly sorted out.
I've saved quite a lot of AP now. I will change a few leaders next turn.

Armament points are getting low now. with many factories lost or off line that's not surprising. Building tons of RR construction brigades seems a good way to spend a few APS and use up some manpower into something useful that won't eat up too much armament.

Plenty of reinforcements recieved again. Especially tank brigades. but it will take much time before they get filled up and become useful. Meanwhile they will all draw on manpower and armament......



< Message edited by Arstavidios -- 6/10/2011 12:46:00 PM >

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