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- 1/1/2001 2:09:00 AM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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Fantastic discussion!! OK, I have two gripes: 1)Soviet squads equipped with moltov cocktails (could also be other armies with them but I've only tried the Soviets): They have some chance to hit, shown by the pop up box just before the attack is resolved. It seems if they hit, they are always (100% of the time) effective. BUT just because they hit the target does not mean that the burning gasoline should always destroy the target. I mean, AT rounds must first hit, then penetrate. I do not have any statistical analysis from WWII on the number of MCs thown that were effective but one of the things I learned in the current US Army is that MCs are NOT very effective. When the container breaks, most of the fuel is consumed in a fire ball, leaving little fuel for raising the temperature of the target to the burning point. I think MCs should either have a two step attack resolution (hit then effect) or have their effectiveness reduced. 2) My attacks by elite (~110 experience) German engineers on imobilized Soviet tanks show a probability of around 30%! How hard is it to place a satchel charge under an imobile tank? Granted some troops would be shaking in their boots for fear of supporting fire hitting them while crawling up on a tank but elite, battle hardened troops? I think the routine should boost the to hit probability way up there (+90% or so) for veteran or elite troops with low suppression (5 or so). Clearly green troops or highly suppressed troops could still rush up and stumble or run away from fear so they should not get any advantage. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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Post #: 61

- 1/1/2001 3:01:00 AM

orc4hire

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Igor, Well, the fellow was firing the bazooka at 15 yards... if that doesn't qualify for a close assault, then let's look at it this way; you're saying that improvised weapons are more much effective than a bazooka, _and that that is realistic_. Now, that being the case, why were the troops so excited about getting effective AT weapons? (Bazooka, PAIT, Panzerfaust, etc.) And as for your example, you tell me; give me an example. And don't forget to include some '40 infantry; SPWAW doesn't distinguish between your eager beaver '42 boys and the panzer fever flee in terror '40 boys. Daniel, The effect you're talking about is what's called in SPWAW 'firing on' the unit. Rifle fire will cause suppression on tanks, and is not what we are talking about. I'll see if I can hunt up a copy of that book, but in the meantime, riddle me this: Would a real world WWII squad's chance of destroying a tank with improvised weapons, with no more than a few minutes to prepare for and carry out the attack, be more like 8% or 60%? Oh, and read up on the incident of the KV-1 in June or July of '41 that held up a German division for something like 2 days. Buttoned up, immobilized (stuck in the mud, if I recall correctly), the Germans couldn't take it out. Engineers snuck up on it in the dark to place demo charges; nope. In SPWAW there's no way in hell that tank would've lasted more than a few turns; enough time for a squad to get next to it.

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Post #: 62

- 1/1/2001 4:24:00 AM

Daniel Oskar

Posts: 123
Joined: 12/15/2000
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quote:

Originally posted by orc4hire: Would a real world WWII squad's chance of destroying a tank with improvised weapons, with no more than a few minutes to prepare for and carry out the attack, be more like 8% or 60%? Oh, and read up on the incident of the KV-1 in June or July of '41 that held up a German division for something like 2 days. In SPWAW there's no way in hell that tank would've lasted more than a few turns; enough time for a squad to get next to it.[/B]

I would say that a squad's chance of destroying a tank with improvised weapons would be dependant on a number of variables. Does the tank know that theyr'e there? Are they in close terrain, or the wide open spaces. If the squad is on the open plains of russia woth a satchel charge, I'd have to say 8%. In dense vegitation, or urban terrain, maybe closer to 60%. If your KV-1 story is the one I'm thinking of the Germans finally dragged up an 88 Flak to solve their problems. It comes back to terrain. In the wide open spaces you can't get close enough with your weapon. I suppose you could wait for dark, but then what is the visability? A lot of variables. You are right though, in SPWaW it would have died quickly. I think the game system models the assaults well with one exception. It is not realistic for a single squad with improvised weapons to take on all comers in a single turn. Regardless of what the hit % is I can't imagine a rifle squad swarming over a tank platoon and doing them in in that short a period of time. You'd be passing out boxes of Knights Crosses!

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Post #: 63

- 1/1/2001 5:12:00 AM

orc4hire

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Daniel, You're a little more optimistic than me. :} I'd put the chances at about 3% in 'typical' ground, maybe 25-30% in very close terrain. And that would be quite enough to make tankers nervous about poking their noses into the woods; that's 25% per squad, and who knows how many squads might be lurking in there. Still, we aren't all that far apart. On the KV-1 story, I don't recall now how it ended... I think the crew may finally have just given up. But the engineers were only sent in after 1 or 2 attempts to bring up 88s had failed; they had to set up in the KVs line of sight, obviously, and it knocked them out while they were setting up. The engineers did get close enough to set their charges, but didn't take it out. But I agree completely; if 1 assault were all a unit got per turn, succeed or fail, regardless of morale, that would go a long, long way towards taming the wild infantry. :}

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Post #: 64

- 1/1/2001 7:40:00 AM

Charles22

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Just a small note here, and I don't guarantee that you'll always see these results as a lot of factors could've changed things, but this is my report from the Western Front 5/40, playing as Gerry. I had a platoon of "engineers", with flamethrowers, as you may imagine. A platoon or two of S35s came into wood positions, from which they were assaulted by engineers in clear positions. I would estimate that 60-70% of the attempted assaults failed and the stated chance was never over 50%. There was one exception however. The leader squad had snuck around to a hex adjacent to one of the woods hexes flanking them, which in itself was wooded. This engineer was definitely unspotted (though I believe some of the other assaults were unspotted way as well) and his chance was 83% I believe it was (in the low 80s anyway) and he succeeded.

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Post #: 65

- 1/1/2001 10:40:00 AM

kao16

Posts: 311
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I've never really found that close assaults have such a high probability of success as others seem to have (admittedly in a late battle in WB's U2R one of my top airborne squads made at least 4 successful OP-fire close assualts against tanks who were adjacent to the building they were hiding in - overlooking a VH which the German tanks congregated in - but normally I don't have a high success rate in close assaults that I initiate (as opposed to OP-Fire)- even with veteran/elite airborne). Mind you, in WB's WF I have have had a problenm with a SO sniper who successfully close assaulted a Stug III (I ran the move several times (2) with the same result). Is the real problem that the bad guys (AI) are being more successful than your forces, or are people experiencing the easy close assault kills in games against other players (PBEM, online etc)?

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Post #: 66

- 1/1/2001 11:00:00 AM

orc4hire

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kao16 Neither; I (and others) are experiencing too much success against AI forces. I don't have a large enough sample pool to make a judgement about playing against another human. I just now finished a rather sharp little skirmish; a generated battle pitting 1 German infantry company reinforced by a couple 50mm ATGs and with a handfull of mines out front against, well, a pile of Russians in June, '43. Infantry toughness and spotting both knocked down to 90%, air flights limited to 2. Infantry vs. tanks were 100% effective. 2 tanks taken out at 2 hex range with rifle grenades, 2 immobilized by assaults, 4 destroyed by assault. No failures to assault, no failures to achieve results. I wonder, does knocking down the infantry toughness affect gun crews as well?

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Post #: 67

- 1/2/2001 4:11:00 AM

bravo.john

Posts: 21
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From: Orlando, FL
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quote:

Originally posted by orc4hire: Ah, that sets the number of flights....cool. Okay, definitly time to start monkeying with the preferences. Thanks.

The downside is all those saved points are likely to be spent on artillery. I'm playing the long campaign as Germany, up to 5/40 and in Belgium. The Belgians have 55 batteries of 4.5in guns and more than 120 mortars.

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Post #: 68

- 1/2/2001 3:35:00 PM

Sami

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quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt: Fantastic discussion!! OK, I have two gripes: 1)Soviet squads equipped with moltov cocktails (could also be other armies with them but I've only tried the Soviets): They have some chance to hit, shown by the pop up box just before the attack is resolved. It seems if they hit, they are always (100% of the time) effective. BUT just because they hit the target does not mean that the burning gasoline should always destroy the target. I mean, AT rounds must first hit, then penetrate. I do not have any statistical analysis from WWII on the number of MCs thown that were effective but one of the things I learned in the current US Army is that MCs are NOT very effective. When the container breaks, most of the fuel is consumed in a fire ball, leaving little fuel for raising the temperature of the target to the burning point. I think MCs should either have a two step attack resolution (hit then effect) or have their effectiveness reduced.

- A very good point. The MCs were effective mostly against the tanks in the initial period of WW2. BTW, The Red Army didn't use MCs before June 1941 (source:Russian Military Zone). The MC was a part of the Finnish pioneers equipment from mid-30s onward. In 1939 it became an "official AT-weapon". The MC was used in two ways: 1) to burn the tank (the prerequisite for this was, that the MC had to break in the back part of the tank, so that the hot engine would catch fire. If the burning liquid didn't reach the inside of the tank, the MC's effectiveness was seriously reduced. 2) the MC was also intended to be used as a "blinding device". The Finnish AT-teams had generally two men. Before the war, the actions of these two men would go like this: the other would throw a MC on the front hull of the tank, where the flames and smoke would reduce the visibility from the tank, the other would then have a better chance to throw a satchel charge on the tank. In general, the MC proved less valuable as a "blinding device", than as a direct AT-weapon. The engine intakes of the early Soviet tanks were very vulnerable for MCs, while late war tanks were almost MC-proof. Cheers, Sami

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Post #: 69

- 1/2/2001 8:52:00 PM

Kluckenbill

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Although I still think that Infantry is too effective against tanks, I fel obliged to relate my experience from last night. I'm deep into Watchword Freedom. I've advanced upon a victory area in rough terraqin and am counterattacked by the Russians. In this particular action, they have 2 KV85's and a Tank Descent Platoon, I have a Tiger and three Spec Op's platoons with 6 to 9 men in them. First my Tiger pops away innefectively at the KV's (this brings me back to another problem, the relative innefectiveness of guns at 1 hex range) followed by close assaults by all three squads. The squads all had to-hit percentages over 50%, one was over 80%. You guessed it, no effect, and this with veteran squads equipped with satchel charges! I then used the rest of my shots to chase away the Russian infantry. In the Russian's turn, he was lucky against my tank and took it out, and I finally knocked out one of the KV's with close assault Op fire, the other tanks crew had panicked and left their vehicle. Naturally, they were easy pickings. I just thought this was funny because after my earlier rant, here was a case of tanks standing up well to good infantry. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !

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Post #: 70

- 1/2/2001 9:41:00 PM

Paul Vebber

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While the game doesn't explicitly model relative speed across LOS, its actually a lot HARDER to hit once you get very close. Think of it this way - if a target is moving 20 mph across your LOS at 500 yards and you see it moving rather slowly, relative to you moving toward it. Now put that target at 50 yards, and the angular rate you have to turn to keep a bead on it is tremendous.

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Post #: 71

- 1/2/2001 10:22:00 PM

Charles22

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I've never had the problem with being unable to reliably hit tanks when one hex away with another gun. Every time I hear this idea brought up, I'm having to wonder if people just think that when up that close you should be hitting 95%-100% of the time. I have noticed that the estimates for AT fire are often very off, for there's no way I'm getting the overall percentage that is claimed. It seems that shots from AT guns that claim 40-60% chance, are more like 10-20%, while the shots that are 70-99% seem accurate predictions. I'm talking not one battle, but very many over the course of SPWAW. Anyone else notice this? In my mind, what's important is that the tanks are hitting with something approaching historical consistency, but it does seem that the 'predictor' is pretty far off particularly in the 40-60% range.

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Post #: 72

- 1/2/2001 11:29:00 PM

JTGEN

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Good discussion I do not think yhe infartry is too effective against tanks when they are equipped with AT weapons. On the contrary, when an unescorted tank gets to the adjacent hex to bazoocas or panzerfausts it should be knocked out more often than they do when played by human. The computer gets a better chance as usual. I am a Finn and we were in my mind saved in 39 by the nice welcoming coctail for visiting tanks (name Molotow does not come as the inventor but as Stalins foreign minister)and 44 by panzerfausts from becoming a Soviet sosialist republic. I remember seing in a TV interview of a guy who personally destroyed 25 Soviet tanks in one battle. It was in 39' so it was MC's or Satchell Charges that did the job.(show was a series about guys who had the highest finnish medal the Mannerheim Cross) In urban or forest the infartry should be more effecient than in a field or in a plain as they can more easily get close to the tank without getting in to the sights of the tanks machinegun. The infartry without AT weapons is too effective. When snipers and crews destroy tanks it is good joke. I have lost a couple of Panthers to fleeing enemy tank crews that should not be carrying anything bigger than pistols, but maybe they kicked through the tanks armour and then shot the crew. I think the at-rifles are undervalued. I liked them a lot when plaing Soviets against US in 45' as they were cheap and able to destroy the halftracs and jeeps and damaging the stuarts from 10 hexes and being small and not so easy to spot.

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Post #: 73

- 1/2/2001 11:42:00 PM

Kluckenbill

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I guess I wasn't very clear on my 1 hex hit gripe. In the example I gave, the Tiger missed with the first shot, but hit with the next two. I hit each KV once, hoping to at least do some damage to each of them. I think there was no effect, although I suspect it did lower their morale since they didn't return fire on my tanks or infantry during my whole fire phase. I realize this has been discussed ad infinitum elsewhere in this board, but it seems to me that when you hit a tank, it is harder to knock it out at point blank range than it is when the range is 4 or 5 hexes. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !

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Post #: 74

- 1/3/2001 12:45:00 AM

orc4hire

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Kluckenbill, I suspect the angle has something to do with it.... When you're 1 hex away you only have 6 different angles of fire at the bad guy, and he may be positioned in such a way that none of those options are good; they all give his armor a greater relative slope to you. If you're 2-3 hexes away, you have a lot more options for lining up a shot.

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Post #: 75

- 1/3/2001 1:06:00 AM

Kluckenbill

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I agree, or at least as I remember it that was the eventual determination that was made the last time this was discussed on this board. What's frustrating is that you don't know in advance whether you are in one of the "unlucky" hexes to attack a target. Also I must admit that it was only two hits on a pretty good tank, so it may just have been the nature of the penetration numbers and not the one-hex fluke. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !

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Post #: 76

- 1/3/2001 7:15:00 AM

Nikademus

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quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: I think what you are seeing here is getting used to what works against the AI. A have never seen an infantry platoon take out a whole tank company. Hardly the expected result...??? [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited December 29, 2000).]

Really REALLY good point there Paul. I dont think that the 'AI factor' is given enough credit here for some of the stranger or more 'controversial' results alot of players get. A perfect example i had that highlighted this was in my examination of the Japanese infantry recently. Up till recently my only experience against them had been playing some of the 'canned' scenerios against the AI (AI playing the Japanese) and all during the early years of the Pacific campaign when the Japanese Tide was running high. After a half dozen scenerios where i was consistantly wiping the walls with them, and slaughtering experienced and battle-hardened troops with even GREEN units (in both open and closed terrain....long and short range) i was almost on the verge of suspecting that there was a "problem" with the Japanese Infantry resolutions....one that went far beyond their 'no surrender/no retreat' National Characteristic. The Assault on Corregidor scenerio was the worse culprit. There, fighting with Green troops whose Morale and Exp ratings averaged 50 at best and with the exception of the Bomb chutes, poorly equiped as well, i once more slaughtered elite SNLF and experienced IJA units, many at medium ranges as well as closer. I was really scratching my head after that long battle, and was ready to post my theory on the board when i decided to replay the whole thing as the Japanese (Thank God for being able to put the msg delay down to zero!) Well needless to say it turned out my fear of a 'Japanese INF bug' turned out to be just that, a groundless fear. Playing carefully and using hard learned infantry tactics (seeking cover terrain, concentration of forces, cautious advance vs the AI's reckless charges etc) I was able to take advantage of my units average of up to 30-40 points in experience and morale and weapons superiority to give the AI American side an even worse pasting then the one i'd given to the Japanese as the Ameri player. The AI made it even more a slaughter, moving its inexperienced units and reinforcements at top speed over open terrain right into the guns of my waiting infantry. It was'nt pretty to say the least. So in short.....before we all cry FOUL on some aspect of the game....i'd suggest Acid Testing these theories on other players or even play against yourself given the AI's outstanding ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Heh, just did it again in the Turncoats! scenerio....took a Bulgarian force with 30's and 40's for exp and fought a German force of 60's and 70's to a bloody draw against the AI! Hands down the worst quality force i'd ever had to battle with, and the AI still nearly gave me victory. (a few more VP's and i would have scored the marginal victory.....DOH!) Still though, i did experience also my first weird close assault effect too. A two man Southerland ATR unit close assaulted a German STuG (and i dont think it was unspotted either because i had been firing away with it) and got a 30% chance despite the main weapon having Malfunctioned during the assault! The STuG stll went bye bye. odd result. Exp of the unit was 52 too!

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- 1/3/2001 8:19:00 AM

orc4hire

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Nikademus, AI clumbsiness certainly magnifies the effect; if you never let enemy infantry assault your tanks, the fact that they have an absurd chance of succeeding in assaults doesn't matter. But that doesn't change the fact that when the assaults do happen, they succeed too often.

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Post #: 78

- 1/3/2001 9:59:00 AM

kao16

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I have found that if I can shoot at infantry before they get to me they generally fail their close assault, while a suprise attack succeeds more often than not (e.g., I managed to take out a T-34/85 with a GE sniper that snuk up behind and close assaulted - this makes up for the SO sniper in a biulding taking out my Stug III earlier. It is possible that even recce by fire will reduce the effectiveness of close assault as you move your AFVs through bush and built up areas (also infantry either on the tank or just in the same hex can reduce the success of close assaults, or so it appears).

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- 1/3/2001 11:25:00 AM

Pack Rat

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I was playing a M. Whittman scenario and managed to lose his tank. It didn't stop him he took out a lot of tanks before finally being killed. ------------------ Your mine is a terrible thing to lose. Pack Rat

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- 1/3/2001 11:32:00 PM

Billy

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Going into the OOB editor and reducing grenade HE penetration from 38 to 8 seems to produce a (in my humble opinion) realistic effect. I can't see how a tiny little grenade has the power to blast through an inch and a half of hardened armour plate. Still a great game though. ------------------ The old world is dead... as are the buried...

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- 1/4/2001 12:14:00 AM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
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quote:

Originally posted by orc4hire: Kluckenbill, I suspect the angle has something to do with it.... When you're 1 hex away you only have 6 different angles of fire at the bad guy, and he may be positioned in such a way that none of those options are good; they all give his armor a greater relative slope to you. If you're 2-3 hexes away, you have a lot more options for lining up a shot.

Paul V. has mentioned the abnormalities that can happen at close range due to distortions imposed by a hex grid. It may be too late for SPWAW but perhaps a look up table(s) could be used to generate angles, etc. at close range instead of trying the routine that is used at longer ranges. This would give consistent results and not the sometimes weird results. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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Post #: 82

- 1/5/2001 6:50:00 PM

frank1970

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I spoke to the brother of my grandma, who was a Oberleutnant in the 100.J�gerdivision. He was wounded in Stalingrad and flown out, so he could help train soldiers in attacking tanks with so called infantry weapons (i.e. carabine, handgrenades, mines and Klappspaten (I don�t know the English word, I mean the part you use to dig a hole and hide in). He was really good in destroying tanks (he destroyed about 15 or so). He told me that: a) German infantrists combined some handgrenades to a "Geballte Ladung". The power of the geballte Ladung was enough to destroy the turret of a tank (it destroys the move-mechanism, and lifts the whole turret up). b) The main problem of destroying tanks was to keep cool while sitting in a hole and waiting till the tank was behind the frontline. Many soldiers paniced, jumped up and were killed by the machineguns of the tank. c) The soldiers didn�t try to kill the tank but to make it stop, so jump on the tank and destroy the optics or the MGs with their Spaten. d) At last he told me it was no problem to get on a tank, the problem was getting near the tank. In a circle about 20-30m around the tank it is absolutely defenseless. This tells me, that a good trained force could destroy a lot of tanks!

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- 1/6/2001 12:26:00 AM

orc4hire

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Frank, Interesting post. Yes, good infantry, well prepared, can chew up tanks. There was also a trick with wedging a landmine under a T-34's turret overhang.... But the same post tells me that less well trained or prepared infantry gets cut down a lot. Ask your great-uncle how he would have felt about leading an infantry platoon in a counter-attack against a company of KV-1s. I'd bet he'd think the idea insane, and he'd be right. But not only have I seen it happen in SPWAW, it's a fairly standard tactic of mine for the Germans before they get effective tanks.

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Post #: 84

- 1/6/2001 1:45:00 AM

Kluckenbill

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There are a couple of interesting books out on Armor in Viet Nam. Also I had several NCO's in my unit (back int the 70s) who fought in tanks there. They all have lots of accounts of the VC and NVA trying to take out M48s with a wide variety of close assault methods. Basically, nothing worked too well (except real anti tank mines and, of course, RPG's) as long as the tanks moved and fought as units so one tank could use its machine guns to cover the other. In an unrealated issue. I had a Plt Sgt who was in an M42 Duster Unit in Viet Nam. He thought that they were fabulous at fighting enemy infantry, probably quite a bit better than similar weapons are represented in SPWAW. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !

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- 1/6/2001 3:08:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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Again there are two problems here, one is the poor ability of the AI to protect tanks form infantry and the ability of the infantry to kill tanks too easily. THey do not becaome a real broblem except together. I guarantee no plat of infantry will to jack squat against a human controlled company of tanks. And a human controlled company of tanks will wipe out a company of infnatry with virtually no losses if it tries to advance against it. The AI in SPWaW is what it is. My advice is to play agianst humans ;-)

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- 1/6/2001 7:44:00 AM

troopie

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Just done a battle, British vs Italians, East Africa, 1940, Summer. The 2 pounders ate up the Italian armour, as I expected. The Italian tanks outmatched the Rolls Royce ACs. also as I expected. But the KAR (with standard infantry weapons, Mills bombs and few AT weapons) and Armed Settlers, (with rifles and petrol bombs) feasted on tanks in the thick bush. In open ground the infantry gave way before the Italian armour. What kind of terrain is the infantry fighting in? I remember being trained in fighting armour in thick veld. In open ground the best advice was "Stay down, don't move and hope the tank doesn't see you" Also, tanks in groups are, not nearly as vulnerable as solo tanks. These might as well have "Destroy Me" written in large letters on the turrets. troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete

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- 1/6/2001 4:40:00 PM

orc4hire

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Paul, Well, sure, humans can adapt to things faster than the AI, but saying, "Play against humans" is so... Talonsoft. :} I'm curious what the new games are going to look like... I'm sure trying to work around the limits of the SP engine has given you guys a lot of ideas on how you'd build things from the ground up....

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Post #: 88

- 1/7/2001 5:17:00 AM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

How is it "talonsoft" to point out the fact that a human can give you a much better game than the AI?? The "programmed opponent" has no capacity to adapt. A cockraoch adapts better than any wargame AI out there. The best you can do is present the player with a challange. One that he will crack sooner or later... Ask any SP1 vet if the current system is better than the old "Flying monkey engineers" in SP1! YEs, vs the Ai if you know the tricks, you can do LOTs of totally unrealistic things...that has always been the case and is better now, if only slightly. At least against a human real tactics work now...as opposed to the old days

We can't rewrite the AI for SP:WaW, we are making a new game that will address the general problem (ie fairly unsophisticated AI). Check out the Combat Leader forum...back to work :-) [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited January 06, 2001).]

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(in reply to RobertMc)

Post #: 89

- 1/7/2001 5:44:00 AM

orc4hire

Posts: 149
Joined: 7/31/2000
Status: offline

It's a Talonsoft sort of thing to say, "Don't do those things that might expose the flaws in our game," at least in my experience of Talonsoft's customer support.... As much as I may give you guys a hard time sometimes, I have a higher opinion of your capabilities than that, so I'm really curious to see what you guys come up with starting from a clean slate.

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(in reply to RobertMc)

Post #: 90