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RE: what is the opinion on this 1 to 1 retreat result for the Russian's

 
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RE: what is the opinion on this 1 to 1 retreat result f... - 6/29/2011 4:35:34 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Joined: 10/21/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I suppose I am still naive enough to believe that is is possible to have a discussion on the internet with different points of view and not call people names. Thats just me.


Yea, and I am naive enough to think a guy can correctly read the table HE sent himself, and if he mis-reads the data so blatantly as in the example above, that he'd at least apologize, but that's just me.

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 121
RE: what is the opinion on this 1 to 1 retreat result f... - 6/29/2011 4:45:06 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I suppose I am still naive enough to believe that is is possible to have a discussion on the internet with different points of view and not call people names. Thats just me.


Yea, and I am naive enough to think a guy can correctly read the table HE sent himself, and if he mis-reads the data so blatantly as in the example above, that he'd at least apologize, but that's just me.


And that Oleg is why you are the Soviet Fan boy we have all to come to love.





(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 122
RE: what is the opinion on this 1 to 1 retreat result f... - 6/29/2011 5:28:53 PM   
KamilS

 

Posts: 1827
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		Well, I think that whole point of this discussion is - does Soviet +1 attack modifier equal higher casualties or it doesn't.

Assuming, that what Klydon says about casualties is true and defending Germans units are more damaged than attacking Soviet - proportionally of course (we are talking about battles when result is pretty close), then if he is right whole idea of +1 is nothing less than lack of balance.

I am saying it as a WitE fan-boy

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 123
RE: what is the opinion on this 1 to 1 retreat result f... - 6/29/2011 6:03:57 PM   
KamilS

 

Posts: 1827
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		I think temporary solution could be removing additional German casualties when they are forced to retread due to +1 rule.

In the longer run, both +1 rule and proposed scraping of retreat losses could be affected by several factors, for example morale, command or numbers of involved units, initial and final odds etc.


What do you think?



At the moment situation is weird. Soviets are punished by that rule if they don't need it, and Germans if odds were pretty even

Example. Soviet win thanks to rule - gain:

- they get hex (+1)
- they suffer higher casualties (-1)
- Germans suffer retreat casualties (+1)


In they would have won without that rule - loss:

- they got hex that they would get anyway (0)
- they suffer higher losses (-1)
- Germans suffer from retreat, but they would retreat anyway (0)

I think wining 3:1 or 4:1 shouldn't see mitigations of higher casualties rule for Soviets - if chance of wining is not high or very high they would use tactics causing high losses, but if chance of wining was almost equal to 100% I doubt applying tactics leading to high losses would take place.

< Message edited by Kamil -- 6/29/2011 6:21:09 PM >

(in reply to KamilS)
Post #: 124
RE: what is the opinion on this 1 to 1 retreat result f... - 6/29/2011 6:51:20 PM   
gradenko2k

 

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Well, I think that whole point of this discussion is - does Soviet +1 attack modifier equal higher casualties or it doesn't.

Assuming, that what Klydon says about casualties is true and defending Germans units are more damaged than attacking Soviet - proportionally of course (we are talking about battles when result is pretty close), then if he is right whole idea of +1 is nothing less than lack of balance.

I am saying it as a WitE fan-boy

We don't really have a point of comparison - Soviet casualties are generally consistent, and the "extra casualties" modifier is ostensibly always on, so we don't know what casualties would have been like if it were off.

What we do know is that given the consistent amount of Soviet casualties, and the consistent amount of German casualties, the Germans aren't able to absorb the kind of losses that they take.

The assumption here is that if the modifier were off, then the loss ratios across the two sides would even more lopsidedly in favor of the Red Army.

(in reply to KamilS)
Post #: 125
RE: what is the opinion on this 1 to 1 retreat result f... - 6/29/2011 8:00:42 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Well, I think that whole point of this discussion is - does Soviet +1 attack modifier equal higher casualties or it doesn't.


This is correct.

As explained in manual Gary coded 1:1 +1 for Soviets coupled with much higher Soviet losses when attacking (i.e. simulating "Human wave")...


Also, as written before, we are currently testing build that changed this rule (and introduced some other changes)!


Leo "Apollo11"

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(in reply to KamilS)
Post #: 126
RE: what is the opinion on this 1 to 1 retreat result f... - 6/29/2011 10:18:08 PM   
Mynok


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Joined: 11/30/2002
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Besides, I wouldn't consider 'Axis fanboy' and insult but rather a statement of fact when applied to Pelton (or myself for that matter). I've never played the Soviets and never seen Pelton play them either.

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(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 127
RE: what is the opinion on this 1 to 1 retreat result f... - 6/29/2011 11:49:06 PM   
jjdenver

 

Posts: 2247
Joined: 11/2/2007
Status: offline 		It's a terrible rule (the 1:1 auto-win)

Luckily it looks like it may go away.


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(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 128
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