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RE: 9/1/45: VJ DAY....JAPAN SURRENDERS

 
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RE: 9/1/45: VJ DAY....JAPAN SURRENDERS - 9/21/2015 7:38:24 AM   
richlove


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Joined: 5/1/2009
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Great game! Thank you and your opponent for sticking with it all the way.

Any chance of an "executive summary / lessons learned" ?

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 961
RE: 9/1/45: VJ DAY....JAPAN SURRENDERS - 9/21/2015 11:03:21 AM   
Mike McCreery


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Congratulations, it must have been one hell of a ride


This isnt a game, it is a hobby ;]

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(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 962
RE: 9/1/45: VJ DAY....JAPAN SURRENDERS - 9/22/2015 3:43:30 AM   
nicwb

 

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Thanks Admiralspruance

I always enjoyed reading your AAR.

The China finish was interesting even if it was forced upon you by circumstances. The lack of nuclear weapons was a bit surprising - I had no idea it was a random event

(in reply to Mike McCreery)
Post #: 963
RE: 9/1/45: VJ DAY....JAPAN SURRENDERS - 9/23/2015 1:46:16 AM   
racndoc


Posts: 2519
Joined: 10/29/2004
From: Newport Coast, California
Status: offline
Thanks everyone for all the comments.

richlove..... I can try to summarize the game but we started over 4 years ago and the version of the game that we are now playing is quite a bit different that the one we started with in 2011.

The main objectives that I set as the Allies at the start of the game were:

1)Stop the Japanese advance and prevent Japanese auto victory.
2)Strategic warfare to interdict Japanese SLOC from the SRA back to the Home Islands. This was initially performed by the Allied subs but our main offensive thrust was to drive from Australia-New Guinea-Northeastern DEI-Mindanao-central Philippines to allow Allied bombers to interdict the South China Sea as early as possible.
3)Retake the initiative from Japan.
4)Capture airfields that would allow for strategic bombing of Japan to destroy her industrial capacity.

I will do a quick summary of the game 1 year at a time.

(in reply to richlove)
Post #: 964
1942.....SUMMARY - 9/23/2015 2:26:25 AM   
racndoc


Posts: 2519
Joined: 10/29/2004
From: Newport Coast, California
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CHINA


The Japanese front line cities in China have better defensive terrain than the Chinese controlled cities so I advanced
pretty much all along the front and surprised Dave. Chinese Corps were broken down into A/B/C fragments immediately
to recover disablements and take on replacements ASAP. Fought as long as possible to hold supply producing bases at
Wenchow and also the Loyang/Chengchow area. Dave brought in all the armor from Manchukuo and consolidated them into a
Panzer Corps so all Allied antitank units in the game were shipped to India and then flown over the hump from Ledo to
Kunming when they were invaluable in stopping IJA armor. Early on the Allies invested Canton put so much pressure on
the Japanese there that it cut into the SAA reinforcments. Im pretty sure that Dave had to spend his PPs to help out
in China rahter than using them to buy LCUs for the SAA offensive. The front lines in China moved to and fro but it
was pretty much a stalemate ffor all of 1942.


PHILIPPINES

Dave lost any chance of autovictory with the Allied defense of the Luzon. Initially Dave invaded at Vigan with
overwhelming force but it was just a diversion as most of these troops were re-embarked for Malaya and the DEI.
Allied blockade running xAKs from Pearl Harbor were able to sneak through Japanese naval search and resupply Luzon.
Well over 150,000 supplies were brought in to Luzon. Allied troops took on replacements and went on the counteroffensive.....pushing the Japanese back to a 2 hex salient up at Vigan. Because of this...there was no
Japanese Phase II offensive in the game. All the Japanese troops released from the DEI and Malaya were forced to
reinforce on Luzon....9 divisions in all. Japan did not conquer Luzon until late Dec. 1942.

DEI

Batavia held out until early May. Dave was forced to use KB in the Indian Ocean for several weeks to keep the Allies
from reinforcing/resupplying Java.

BURMA

Dave dropped paratroops in Lashio the 1st week of the war and I didnt leave sufficient troops to defend the base so the
Burma Road was cut early on. The Japanese only made a half hearted advance here as most of their troops were in the DEI
and later Luzon so Japan was stopped short of Myitkina. The SEAC counteroffensive later in the year recaptured Mandalay.


SOPAC

Dave moved hard and fast here early in the game. The Japanese took Port Moresby,Rabaul and New Britain,the Bismarcks and
the Solomons early on and set out to build up mutually supporting level 4 AFs at Rabaul, Shortlands, Munda and Lunga by
April 1942. The Japanese were however overextended with most of their troops and KB in the DEI and the Allies were able
to regain the initiative with a May counteroffensive into Guadalcanal. The Battle for Guadalcanal was easily the
most desperate and exciting of the game. It is covered on pages 5-8 of the AAR. The Japanese lost 5 BBs and a lot
of aircraft in the Battle for Guadalcanal. Over the remainder of 1942.... SOPAC advanced up the Solomons utilizing
LRCAP from land bases as much as possible to avoid exposing their carriers to KB.



SWPAC

Dave never really built up Port Moresby after capturing it in early 1942. SWPAC landed 2 divisons at Port Moresby
in the summer of 1942 and they drove overland across the Owen Stanley Mountains to take Buna, Lae, Saidor and most
of SE New Guinea by the end of the year. Again...Allied carriers were not exposed to KB as the advance was all
overland.

(in reply to racndoc)
Post #: 965
RE: 1942.....SUMMARY - 9/23/2015 3:14:20 AM   
BBfanboy


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That summary is perfect - it describes the major moves and the unusual steps you took that gave the Japanese problems. Maybe a few Allied players in their games will be inspired to try the unusual defence and limited offence. I presume that summary was only for 1941-42 and you will continue for subsequent years?

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to racndoc)
Post #: 966
RE: 1943.....SUMMARY - 9/23/2015 4:18:40 AM   
racndoc


Posts: 2519
Joined: 10/29/2004
From: Newport Coast, California
Status: offline
BBfanboy....I will go through the game year by year....it just takes awhile as I have to re-read my own AAR to remember
what I was doing 4 years ago...LOL.



CHINA

Stalemated over 1943. Dave made a major breakthrough to Sian and the whole of northern/western China was threatened.
Chinese reinforcements forced the Japanese to retreat back to Nanyang.

Massive aerial attrition both over China and Burma. New Allied tactic....I purchased destroyed Chinese LCUs with maybe
one squad or device for a handful of PPs. Switched them over to SEAC command on the cheap and then airlifted to India
to rebuild on unlimited SEAC supply. Then marched back into China after being fully rebuilt. Most Allied transport AC
were sent to Ledo to lift supplies into China. SEAC offensive re-opened the Burma Road and and Chinese supply issues disappeared.


BURMA


I heavily reinforced SEAC and recaptured most of Burma. Dave sent troops that were freed up by the capture of Luzon
to Thailand and stopped SEAC cold at Moulmein. With the 3x terrain and massive forts at Moulmein....two SEAC attacks
were repulsed with the Allies losing a total of 5000 AV. No more offensives were attempted by SEAC into Indochina for
the remainder of the war. SEAC troops begin to redeploy into China.


AUSTRALIA

Dave invades northern and western Australia as a diversion. Allies retake northern Australia and prepare for a 1944
offensive from Darwin into the southern DEI by taking numerous islands bases on the edge of the Banda Sea. USN CVEs
were covering the advance of II Australian Corps into the DEI and we suffered our 1st big CAP breakdown/carrier
debacle of the war in July 1943. In a single turn Japanese land based naval bombers sank 7 CVEs and damaged 6
additional CVEs. This pushed back SWPAC's offensive in the Philippines by 6 months.

SOPAC

SOPAC lands 4 divisions at Gasmata under the cover of land based air. A large airbase is built at Gasmata to cover
the landing of additional troops and supplioes. These troops march overland to take all of New Britain and the main
prize of Rabaul. All of the advance is overland and while the Allied carriers complete repairs and upgrades. Once
Rabaul is captured, Japan is basically forced to evacuate from the Admiralties and Bismarcks. SOPAC mops up the
Bismarcks and Admiralties with a huge assist from land based air.


SWPAC

SWPAC troops advance overland from Lae to Madang, Hansa Bay, Aitape and eventually Sarmi completely independent of
naval support. Massive airfields are constructed along the northern coast of New Guinea to help cover the planned 1944 SOPAC
offensive in the Carolines and Paulaus.


CENTPAC


CENTPAC assaults the Gilberts in spring 1943 after the APs upgrade to APAs. In the summer/fall of 1943 CENTPAC
captures the Marshalls and Wake Island. The capture of the Marshalls posed a threat to the Marianas and served as a diversion while SOPAC invaded the Carolines and Paulaus in 1944.


< Message edited by AdmSpruance -- 9/23/2015 5:27:48 AM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 967
1944 SUMMARY - 9/24/2015 5:08:52 AM   
racndoc


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From: Newport Coast, California
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1944 was the year of decision for the Allies. The US Navy had finally achieved both a quantitative and qualitative superiority over the IJ Navy in both carriers and aircraft. This was important as SWPAC had been attacking overland across New Guinea for the last 18 months and now all future SWPAC/SOPAC/II Australian Corps/CENTPAC assaults would be amphibious in nature....one island base at a time.

I drew a series of maps with both Allied strategic and operational planning for SWPAC/II Australian Corps/CENTPAC for 1944 on posts 512-517 on page 18 of the AAR.




BURMA

SEAC is stalemated at Moulmein and Uttaradit on the Burma/Thailand border. Hundreds of thousands of supplies from Aden, Abadan and Karachi are unloaded weekly at Rangoon. From Rangoon the supplies are drawn to Mandalay and then Lashio and on into central China. Dave tries to interdict the Allied sea lanes to Rangoon with minefields, subs, surface raiders and air strikes so we are sparring quite a bit in the Bay of Bengal and the Andaman Sea. Most SEAC construction engineers are marched into China along with most SEAC troops not needed to defend the border at Moulmein and Uttaradit. Thousands of Allied PPs are spent to buy India Command and Eastern Command LCUs to reinforce in China.


CHINA


Pretty quiet on the front lines in China in 1944. I had enough SEAC troops and antitank formations to blunt any large scale IJA attacks. Most SEAC troops are hidden away from view in rear areas in China so that Dave does not learn of their whereabouts. We now start planning for a large spring 1945 offensive with Chinese troops in central China and SEAC and Chinese troops in southern China to cause as much havoc as possible prior to Soviet activation. The main Allied targets at this time are Canton and Hong Kong for Army Group South and Hangchow and Ningpo for Army Group Center.

SEAC engineers from India/Burma begin building level 8 and 9 AFs across central and southern China in preparation for the massive numbers of Allied aircrart that will be staged here in 1945 to support the land offensives. Hundreds of thousands of supplies are drawn up the Burma Road into China and stock piled for the upcoming offensive.


II AUSTRALIAN CORPS

II Australian Corps became a very powerful command as several Australia Command divisions were bought for 25% PPs to be incorporated into II Australian Corps. In January 1944....II Australian Corps was to advance from its bases at Boela, Tamerfane, Saumlaki and Kai-eilanden to Misool, Obi, Ambon and then meet up with SWPAC in the Moluccas. Their advance would be completely covered by land based air until they reached the Moluccas. II Australian Corps captured Misool and then at Obi Dave reinforced with large numbers of troops flown in by air. Obi was never secured and then was written off along with Ambon as the Allies were able to capture their main objective of Talaud-eilanden in a coup de main.

SWPAC

SWPAC planned to advance with the full backing of the Allied carriers(Fifth Fleet) from Sarmi to Biak, Noemfoor, Manokwari, Sansopar and Sorong on the NW tip of New Guinea. Then they would take Waigeo and link up with II Australian Corps in the Moluccas. Then SWPAC would secure Manado and the most important base of all.....Talaud-eilanden. Talaud-eilanden would be the main base that would then cover the landings on Mindanao.

Dave built his main line of resistance on his periphery at Noemfoor/Manokwari. SWPAC took Biak, Sansopar and Waigeo while the battle raged on at Noemfoor and Manokwari. SWPAC invaded the Moluccas in conjunction with II Australian Corps but Dave again heavily reinforced by air. Recon showed that Japanese rear bases at Talaud-eilanden and Manado were lightly garrisoned so the 1st Marines were rapidly landed on Talaud-eilanden and secured it before any bases in the Moluccas were captured. The Allies now had a level 6 AF 4 hexes from their planned assault beach on Mindanao....Dadjangas.

In supporting SWPAC's offensive into NW New Guinea and the Moluccas....Fifth Fleet had 2 CVs, 2 CVLs and 4 CVEs damaged. Another 2 CVEs were sunk. The Japanese lost hundreds of carrier and land based strike aircraft including hundreds of their most experienced torpedo bomber pilots.

SWPAC and II Australian Corps invaded Mindanao at Dadjangas in March 1944. The Mindanao campaign then became another overland affair that lasted 4 months. Fifth Fleet was then released to cover SOPAC'S offensive into the Carolines and Paulaus.

While SWPAC mopped up on Mindanao....additional SWPAC and II Australian Corps forces landed on Luzon at Legaspi in June 1944. Fifth Fleet covered the landings at Legaspi and had 1 RN CVL and 2 CVEs sunk by Japanese air. Once ashore at Legaspi... Luzon became just another overland affair and Fifth Fleet was released to cover CENTPAC's offensive into the Marianas. SWPAC invaded Jolo and Palawan in July 1944 covered by land based air. SBDs based on Palawan were able to cut Japanese SLOC through the South China Sea in conjunction with B-25D1s based in China and the Home Islands were effectively cut off from the SRA.

Luzon was recaptured by 12/44 and large level 9 B-29 bases were built at Aparri, Laoag, Vigan and Tueguegarao for the strategic bombing of Japan.


CENTPAC

CENTPAC sat at Eniwertok for most of 1944 to serve as a diversion while SWPAC and II Austarian Corps conquered the Philippines. Once SWPAC was safely ashore on Luzon in June 1944, Fifth Fleet was released for CENTPACs invasion of the Marianas. The Marianas offensive was supported by bases that SOPAC captured in the Carolines and Paulaus at Yap, Ulithi and Woleai. We originally planed for an invasion of Babeldaob but it was so heavily garrisoned that it was bypassed as were Truk and Ponape. CENTPAC had a pretty uneventful offensive into the Marianas and they were secured by 10/44.

Covered by Fifth Fleet....CENTPAC invaded Iwo Jima in 11/44. Five Allied divisions were landed in a failed invasion. I didnt know at the time that the overstacking affected the morale and disruption of the attacking units. Even worse...this assault was done pre-patch where the game engine couldnt handle large numbers of CAP and LRCAP....combat would only last a certain number of rounds regardless if you had 400 fighters, 1400 fighters or 2400 fighters on CAP. Just like I experienced in previous carrier debacles in the Banda Sea in 6/43, Moluccas in 2/44 and here at Iwo Jima....if the incoming Japanese naval air strike had >100 fighter escorts it would penetrate virtually any level of CAP. Depending on the die rolls....occasionally massed LRCAP could stop air strike with >100 fighter escorts.

Fifth Fleet has another 8 CVEs sunk off Iwo Jima with 14 more CVE/CVLs damaged. Five CENTPAC divisions are stranded with heavy casualties on the beach at Iwo Jima ....under supplied and unable to recover disablements.

1944 ends on a sour note for the Allies.


< Message edited by AdmSpruance -- 9/24/2015 6:12:40 AM >

(in reply to richlove)
Post #: 968
1945 SUMMARY - 9/25/2015 1:36:42 AM   
racndoc


Posts: 2519
Joined: 10/29/2004
From: Newport Coast, California
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The carrier battle around Iwo Jima in 11/44 became known as the 1st Naval Battle of the Bonins because it was followed by 2 more in 1945.In the 1st Battle of the Bonins in 11/44, Dave was able to launch at 8 hexes for the 3rd time in the war so there was no Allied counter strike. The Allies had 1850 planes on CAP/LRCAP and they were still savaged by an IJN carrier strike of 450 AC. The results of this battle radically altered Allied planning for 1945 as the pre-patch modeling of carrier air battles was completely broken.

So the Allied shipyards were filled by the 14 damaged CVEs from the 1st Naval Battle of the Bonins as 1945 rolled around. The Allied carriers had been at sea almost continuously for all of 1944 as SWPAC advanced from Sarmi on New Guinea to the northern tip of Luzon so I figured that this would be a good time for repairs, maintenance and upgrades. 25 CVEs were sent to Sydney to complete their 1944 upgrades.

By 1/1/45 the Allies had completed both of their strategic objectives for the war:
1) Interdiction of Japanese SLOC from the SRA to the Home Islands by the capture of the Philippines and
2) Establishment of B-29 bases in the Marianas and Luzon for the strategic bombing of Japan.

All that remained for the Allied operational planning of 1/1944 was the capture of islands close enough to Japan to allow B-24 strikes and fighter escorts so that we could bomb Japanese AFs and attrition their air forces. We were still engaged in a losing battle on Iwo Jima in the Bonins....the US 8th Army was stuck on the sand of the beaches while Japan controlled the AF. We had also planned for CENTPAC invasions of Okinawa, Amami Oshima, Tokara Retto, Yakashima and Tanegashima off Kyushu and Miyake-jima off Yokohama. We were prepping the 20 SWPAC divisions on Luzon as well as another 15 divisions in the Marianas and Rabaul for these objectives but after the disaster from facing just the IJ Navy at Iwo Jima there was no way that I was going to operate Allied carriers for an extended period of time in the face of both Japanese land based air _and_ carrier based air. So all of the invasions were cancelled except for the Miyake-jima invasion.

All of the SWPAC, II Australian Corps and CENTPAC divisions from Luzon, Rabaul and the Marianas were sent to China under the cover of land based air. At first....the divisions were shipped to Kwangchowan to reinforce Army Group South but once Hong Kong was captured all remaining troops and supplies were dropped off at the level 9 port of Hong Kong. We were easily dropping 400,000 supplies per week at Hong Kong for several months of 1945. Over 300,000 IJA troops were pocketed and destroyed by Army Group South at Hong Kong/Canton.

Meanwhile....Fifth Fleet escorted a resupply mission to Iwo Jima that dropped off over 300,000 supplies and also withdrew enough of the shattered units there to get CENTPAC AV on the beach down to 650. I realized that with the stacking limits at atolls and small islands(treated as atolls for combat) you could only use a limited size assault force (or numerator) as additional stacking would just cause disruption and supply and morale loss. So the only way to take the small island of Iwo JIma (with over 30,000 IJA defenders) was to reduce the AV of the defenders(denominator). I finally figured out a way to reduce the denominator so that a relatively small numerator could win the attack. Aerial bombardment does little against large forts in good defensive terrain and naval bombardments are better at damaging AFs and ports that disrupting defenders. The trick was to build amphibious bombardment TFs.....5 of them in my case. These TFs would unload supplies and assault troops but would be filled by the 300 plus LCI(x)s, DDs, CLs,CAs and old BBs. They need to be stacked with all the AE/AKEs and you need back to back bombardments over 2 turns. Bombard and drop supplies on the 1st turn...reload with the AE/AKEs at the end of the turn....and then invade on the 2nd turn after a 2nd amphibious bombardment.

I practiced this theory at Marcus Is. and Agrihan and I was able to reduce 10,000 and 20,000 IJA troops respectively to adjusted AVs of "1".

While trying out this new concept ....I sensed a chance to ambush KB in March 1945 and I sent the Allied carriers back towards Iwo Jima for the 2nd Naval Battle of the Bonins. This time I picked the time and place of engagement but once again it was at 8 hexes at the Allied carriers again failed to react to close the distance. This time 1400 fighters on CAP and LRCAP couldnt stop a Japanese air strike of 77 bombers escorted by 66 fighters and the Allies had 2 CVs, 1 CVL and 6 CVEs sunk in addition to numerous other carriers damaged.

In April.....Fifth Fleet came back to the Bonins to cover the CENTPAC reinforcement of Iwo Jima. This time about 1200 AV of Allied troops were able to finally capture Iwo Jima after the massive amphibious bombardment reduced the defenders AV to about 10. KB sortied once again and we had the 3rd Naval Battle of the Bonins. This time 1300 Allied fighters on CAP and LRCAP couldnt stop a Japanese naval air strike of 80 bombers covered by 21 fighters. Fifth Fleet lost another 10 CVEs. Fortunately this time we had the carrier combat at 7 hexes for the 1st time in the war and the Allied counter strike sank 3 CVs, 1 CVL and 6 CVEs. For the 1st time in the war KB had been bloodied.

With Iwo Jima AF open....we were able to sweep central Japan with P-51Ds and P-47Ns. By this time....advancing Allied forces in China were capturing the coastal cities of Foochow, Wenchow and Ningpo and now the southern half of Japan was within range of B-24s and P-47Ns based in China. Dave was forced to evacuate his air forces from southern and central Japan to northern Japan and then the Allied carriers bombed AFs in northern Japan as well as city bombing attacks. At first we would stand off the carriers at 14 hexes from Japan and use the TBM-3s escorted by F4U-1Ds to bomb Japan to keep out of A6M2 range.

Then Dave and I had the biggest change in the fortunes of war for the entire game....the newest patch came out that fixed carrier air battles by allowing more rounds of A2A combat as greater numbers of AC were involved in a air battle.

With the massive Allied reinforcement of China....I expanded the limited objectives that I had in Jan. 1945 and decided to have Army Group Center attempt to overrun all of central and northern China as well as have Army Group South drive on Shanghai and Nanking. As we moved farther north in China and as the war drew to a close I was forced to start landing reinforcements at Wenchow and Ningpo as opposed to the relative safety of Hong Kong and then Dave tried to interdict these convoys with surface TFs and land based air at first and then eventually KB. When BB Yamato appeared off the coast of China I was forced to send Iowa Class BBs and then eventually Allied carriers and this resulted in the Naval Battle of the Ryukukus in June 1945. With the new patch rules covering A2A combat the battle was as much anti climatic as it was a slaughter for the Japanese. KB lost 7 CVs and 2 CVLs with no losses by the Allies.

The last 2 months of the war saw Army Group Center overrunning most of northern China as Army Group South captured Shanghai.

After cutting the land based Japanese air forces down to size....Fifth Fleet covered the CENTPAC invasion of Miyake-jima 2 hexes from Yokohama. Allied fighters and medium bombers based at Miyake-jima wreaked havoc on the Japanese AFs and land based air groups. Dave threw all the reserve fighters, bombers and surface TFs he had left at Miyake-jima in an attempt to close the AF there and I not only got the aerial attrition battle that I wanted but also a naval attrition battle as Japan lost a BB and several cruisers. Fifth Fleet stayed out at sea off the coast of Japan for most of the last 8 weeks of the war.... being constantly refueled and re-armed at sea while taking AC replacements from VR squadrons based on Iwo Jima.

The Soviets entered the war on 8/1/45 and promptly overran 3/4 of Manchukuo....crushing almost everything they encountered. I was pretty impressed by the size and quality of the Red Army LCUs...especially the 7th and 9th Guards Mechanized Corps with a combined 1600 AV between the 2 LCUs.

Japan surrendered on 9/1/45.

(in reply to racndoc)
Post #: 969
RE: 1945 SUMMARY - 9/25/2015 3:44:44 AM   
BBfanboy


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Many thanks for the recap and mention of the innovations you came up with to overcome small islands with big forts. Lots of great ideas.

Also interesting on how you were able to adapt your strategic plan to avoid places that were too strong and hit in the weakest area - China. Normally my eyes glaze over at the mention of China but you fought a war of maneuver that was well worth the read!

I will look forward to your next AAR!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to racndoc)
Post #: 970
ALLIED END OF WAR AIR LOSSES - 9/25/2015 11:13:42 PM   
racndoc


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From: Newport Coast, California
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BB fanboy...thanks for the comments. Regarding China.....Dave generally had at least 35,000-400,000 troops massed in
the Sinyang/wuchow,hankow triangle. I generally had 5000-6000 AV of Chinese troops massed around Sian. Dave dared me
to advance out ofd the forests S of Sian and move past Nanyang...he would just cut me off and actually did take Sian
a couple of times when I moved from the forests into Nanyang and my Chinese army got bounced. In June 1945....I had
enough western Allied troops where I could move out of Nanyang andhead east towards Kaifeng and all of central and
northern China without worry of being cut off or losing Sian. I ended up pocketing the 350,000 IJA troops in
the Sinyang/Hankow/Wuchang triangle. If I had tried a frontal assault against Hankow/Wuchang I think that I would
have been stopped dead in my tracks.



ALLIED END OF WAR AIR LOSSES

I posted on air losses in early July 1945. At that time...only 7 weeks ago...the plane types that sustained the
heaviest losses were:
1) C-47
2)SBD-5
3)TBM-3 with 1257 losses.

Altogether the Allies had lost 36,392 AC.


Here at 9/1/45.... a mere 7 weeks later...the Allies have lost 41,102 AC.....almost 5000 more in less than 2 months.
I think that this shows the ferocity of the aerial attrition combat over Japan at the end of the war. The plane
types that sustained the heavest losses by 9/1/45 were:

1)TBM-3 with 2049 losses
2)SBD-5
3)C-47

So I lost nearly 800 TBM-3s over the last 7 weeks of the war! No wonder that I ran out of them and had to downgrade
many torpedo squadrons to TBM-1Cs. The TBM-3 was my main carrier bomber for AF and city bombing over Japan. Ive
attached a screenshot of my aircraft losses. In 4th place was the F4U-1A. I was a bit surprised by this as they had
been mostly replaced on the carriers by F4U-1Ds and F6F-5s by early 1945. I looked at the high operational losses
for both the F4U-1A and the F6F-3s and I think that they had the relatively high losses from so much LRCAPing in
1944 and 1945. I was surprised that the F4U-1D losses were less than the F4U-1A variant as the Ds were my main
strike aircraft...both for sweeps and escorts... over Japan because their 14 hex range coincided with the 14 hex
range of the TBM-3s.

So now we need a discussion of the best Allied fighters of the war. I feel that with Army fighters...there is no
question that the best fighter of the war was the P-47N. Once it was introduced...it was my main sweeper over China
and Japan yet I only lost 347 of them.... just a little more than 1/3 of my P-51D losses. The P-51D was my other
main Army strike aircraft once it was introduced. I want to say that the P-47D25/Thunderbolt was the 2nd best Allied
fighter of the war. It had shorter range than the P-47N but it was introduced much earlier in the war and appeared invinceable in A2A combat.

As far as the best Navy fighter...I think that there is room for some discussion there. I would normally say that the
F4U-1D was the best Navy fighter of the war. But I received the F8F-1 Bearcat in large numbers at the end of the war
and had swapped out probably 7-8 carrier fighter squadrons to the new plane type. The Bearcat also has 14 hex range
and I used it for both sweeps and CAP. I only lost 8 Bearcats to A2A and 3 to ops so I think that says something. The
other type that surpeised me was the F6F-5. The F6F-5 was my 2nd most used AC on the carriers...yet I only lost 397
of them...and of those 397 AC 256 were to ops...again from LRCAPing.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by AdmSpruance -- 9/26/2015 12:16:25 AM >

(in reply to richlove)
Post #: 971
RE: ALLIED END OF WAR AIR LOSSES - 9/26/2015 9:14:47 PM   
racndoc


Posts: 2519
Joined: 10/29/2004
From: Newport Coast, California
Status: offline
And just for comparison...here is a screenshot of Allied plane losses in July 1945.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to racndoc)
Post #: 972
JAPANESE END OF WAR AIR LOSSES - 9/26/2015 9:17:28 PM   
racndoc


Posts: 2519
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From: Newport Coast, California
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First...here is a screenshot of Japanese AC losses in July 1945.Note the total losses of Japanee AC(49,006) and the
number of Japanese AC destroyed on the ground(4618). Also...the Helens sit in 11th place with 1305 losses.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by AdmSpruance -- 9/26/2015 10:33:03 PM >

(in reply to racndoc)
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RE: JAPANESE END OF WAR AIR LOSSES - 9/26/2015 9:24:33 PM   
racndoc


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Now...here is a screenshot of Japanese AC losses 7 weeks later on 9/1/45. Note that the total losses of AC have increase
from 49,006 to 58,303...thats over 9000 AC or about 1300 Ac lost per week. The Japanese AC losses since July 1945 were
twice those of the Allies.

Then note the number of Japanese AC destroyed on the ground in July.....4618....and the number of Japanese AC destroyed
on the ground by 9/1/45.....7316. Thats 2700 more AC destroyed on the ground in 7 weeks...almost 40% of all AC destroyed
on the ground in 3 1/2 years of war! That was the end result of "Operation Rolling Thunder".

Finally...look at the Helens. They went from 11th place with 1305 AC in July 1945 to 4th place with 2364 on 9/1/45...thats
over 1000 Helens!. I think that the Helen was Dave's preferred model for the kamikaze attacks but maybe when Dave posts on
this thread we will get a better understanding of this.




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< Message edited by AdmSpruance -- 9/26/2015 10:32:45 PM >

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ALLIED ACES AT END OF WAR - 9/26/2015 9:31:01 PM   
racndoc


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Here is a list of the Allies top gun pilots at the end of the war. The list seems to be dominated by US Marines.
Also....I would like to correct what I said a few posts ago about the top US Navy fighter of the war. The F4U-4 was
a better plane in A2A combat that the F4U-1D but it didnt have the 14 hex range.




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< Message edited by AdmSpruance -- 9/26/2015 10:33:32 PM >

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JAPANESE ACES AT END OF WAR - 9/26/2015 9:57:15 PM   
racndoc


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Dave gave me his password so I just starting to look the Japanese side of everything. Im going to start by posting a
screenie of Japan's top gun pilots. If anyone out there has questions about Japan's economy by 9/1/45 let me know and
I will try to post on it. It looks to me as though most of Japan's top aces were flying the George.




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< Message edited by AdmSpruance -- 9/26/2015 11:13:19 PM >

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JAPANESE AIRCRAFT ENGINES AT END OF WAR - 9/26/2015 10:06:54 PM   
racndoc


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Dave told me that the cupboard was pretty bare for Japan at the end of the war and taking a look at the AC engines he
wasnt kidding. I dont know how to read/interpret the production stuff but it looks to me that Japan still has 1.5
million supplies and 4.6 million fuel. Is that a lot or is Japan at subsistence level?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by AdmSpruance -- 9/26/2015 11:08:05 PM >

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JAPANESE AC PRODUCTION AT END OF WAR - 9/26/2015 10:13:39 PM   
racndoc


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Here is a partial list of Japanese AC production as of 9/1/45:




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(in reply to racndoc)
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RE: JAPANESE AC PRODUCTION AT END OF WAR - 9/27/2015 11:04:43 AM   
richlove


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So who won the dinner at The Winery Restaurant?

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RE: JAPANESE AC PRODUCTION AT END OF WAR - 9/27/2015 11:14:31 PM   
erstad

 

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So, I'll hop in and add a few comments. My original plan was to read the whole AAR before commenting, but after a week or so of reading in my "spare time", I realized that plan was foolish and just focused on the last several pages. I’ll catch up on the rest later.

Spruance has done a good job of summarizing the war at a high level by phase, so I’m not going to try to repeat that. I’ll add some random commentary, and answer any questions people might have (assuming, of course that I remember the answers…)

First and foremost, hats off to Bill for being a great opponent. He was a very challenging opponent, and I was schooled more than once. We also meshed well in our desire to keep the game moving along, yet realizing that there is a Real Life out there somewhere that intervenes. I would recommend him as an opponent. I also found it interesting that when I put out feelers earlier this year regarding where he thought the game should end, the answer of 9/1/45 was pretty close to what I was thinking. (I would have played as far as he wanted, but I was thinking that around the historical V-J date was around where things would be starting to get pointless).

If I were to grade my performance, I think the single largest area I fell short was China. In many of my games, it’s been a backwater. And my first AE game was on the original release, before they really balanced China, so I steamrolled it with little effort (due to game mechanics and OOB, not any great skill on my part). So I wasn’t accustomed to putting a lot of thought into china. Bill’s aggressiveness in China threw me off balance, and I never really figured out how to adapt. I probably overestimated the ability of the Chinese to successfully mount an early offensive and stayed a little too conservative (for example, leaving some SAA troops in longer than I should have).

A few comments about game mechanics:
- The 8 hex IJN strike capability and the CAP mechanics (pre-recent patch) definitely did work to my advantage. That, plus a good chunk of luck and I hope some skill, kept KB as a force to be reckoned with for most of the war. Post-patch, it seems even an escorted, large strike has a hard time getting through. This pretty much makes an Allied death star invulnerable (similar to what an early-war KB was in the original WITP). I don’t have the smarts to say if this is realistic or not, but it definitely changes the game. It’s particularly annoying that the kami’s can’t get through, since we know in real life those were always a threat. (and generally the pilots being used as kamis in AE are better trained than in RL).
- I found it surprising that China was able to mount such offensives and run major air operations, and reading in the AAR about the amount of supplies pumped in from Burma, it seems the game gets it wrong here. The reality is that only a trickle of supplies made it over the Hump. XX Bomber Corps was never able to sustain much of an offensive, and that‘s a small fraction of the air operations running out of China in this game. [Please note: This is not a criticism of Bill. I’m a believer that while this is a war simulation, it is also a game and we are playing the game with the rules we are given. If it lets him pump supplies overland, barring a house rule he is more than free to do so. It’s no different than if I have the 8 hex strike range in mind when I plot a move]

On the supply question - I was basically running very low. Mainline china and korea have been low for a number of months, including many bases red and with little or no supplies. The home islands were adequate, barely. Total supply was around 1.4M, but the DEI was still producing a good chunk which wasn’t usable. There was probably only about 0.8M in the active theaters. Which isn’t much given the amount of supply needed to keep bases at their minimum.

On the strategic war: Spruance told me he tried hard with subs to strategically interdict the transport of DEI resources. Honestly, I don’t think that had a huge impact. However, once there was air interdiction of the sea routes, things went downhill fast. You can stockpile enough resources in the home islands to supplement the large local production. However, there’s no substitute for the oil which never is produced in enough quantities to stockpile. Once the oil is out, the refineries stop and you lose maybe 1000 points of supply production per day. And then when the strategic bombing starts, the loss of HI, LI, and oil in the home islands further cripples supply production. No matter how much supply the IJ have stockpiled, that’s the beginning of the end. (And, BTW, I’m not one of those JFBs that goes massively overboard expanding factories, etc. I do a moderate level of expansion, but since I’m preparing for a long game, I am conscious of the fact that supply spent now is not available for later).

Fuel did start heading down in the HI, but paradoxically the strat bombing of HI makes fuel less of a problem. Plus the fact there is less Navy to fuel . So I would have been OK there. Of course, there are now millions of points of fuel in the DEI, cut off from the home islands.

One other random thing to note is how significant strategic bombing VPs are. That’s been true in every game I’ve been in. They were 20% of the VPs when we stopped. With all of Japan being capable of being swept (either LBA or USN) if we kept going a daylight bombing campaign would rack up points at a rapid rate. [A while back a well-respected forum member, who is generally quite knowledgeable, made a comment something like “If the Allies haven’t won by the end of 1945, they aren’t going to win” to which my inner thoughts were “Bull!”. Because if they can get in range of the HI they can rack up a gobload of strategic points. All they need is time.]








(in reply to richlove)
Post #: 980
RE: JAPANESE AC PRODUCTION AT END OF WAR - 9/27/2015 11:27:49 PM   
erstad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: richlove

So who won the dinner at The Winery Restaurant?


That's an interesting question.

In game terms Spruance won. The allies on on the verge of autovictory; one a-bomb or another week or two and it would been official.

But it's a little more complicated. I don't believe an IJ player can win the game, on points, with two competent players WHO ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO VICTORY POINTS AND CARE. I emphasize that last part, because different people play the game with different objectives in mind, and that's OK. It is possible for a JFB to avoid allied autovictory if the allied player doesn't care about the points.

Problem is, there aren't a lot of games that go into 1945/46 to provide good yardsticks. So, I don't think it's black and white.

That said, if I had gotten into 1946 with the position I have, I might think of that as a victory. In this case the game ended around the historical date, but with the Allies in possession of most of china, in addition to all the other stuff (I think the only major thing I own beyond historical is Okinawa, and if Spruance wanted it he could take it in pretty short order with his air and naval superiority).

That, coupled with the subjective sense that I've been outplayed on more occasions than vice-versa, leads me to declare Admiral Spruance the clear winner. I'll happily buy him dinner if and when I get out there. I do think I acquitted myself reasonably well, but I don't feel like I won.




< Message edited by erstad -- 9/28/2015 12:28:27 AM >

(in reply to richlove)
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TOP GUN ALLIED FIGHTER SQUADRONS - 9/27/2015 11:37:35 PM   
racndoc


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richlove..... I told Dave that if he ever made it out to Newport Beach that I would treat him at the new "Winery Restaurant" there. Dave Erstad's cousin....Darrin Erstad....was an allstar center fielder for the LA Angels and he is a part owner of the Winery Restaurant so if I treat Dave I would hope that he asks his famous cousin to dinner as I am a huge Angels fan.




TOP GUN ALLIED FIGHTER SQUADRONS


So I already listed the top gun Allied fighter pilots so I thought I would list the top gun Allied fighter squadrons.


1)347FG/68thFS 488 kills; lost 196 in A2A combat; P-51D
2)8thFG/80thFS 481 kills; lost 118 in A2A combat; P-47N
3)51stFG/26thFS 473 kills; lost 97 in A2A combat; P-51D
4)51stFG/16thFS 447 kills; lost 153 in A2A combat; P-51D
5)VF-2 422 kills; lost 24 in A2A combat; F4U-1A
6)51stFG/26thFS 420 kills; lost 108 in A2A combat; P-51D
7)VF-6 392 kills; lost 44 in A2A combat; F4U-4
8)348FG/342FS 360 kills; lost 76 in A2A combat; P-51D
9)VMF-411 358 kills; lost 58 in A2A combat; F4U-1D
10)343rdFG/11thFS 348 kills; lost 132 in A2A combat; P-51D
11)VF-1 304 kills; lost 9 in A2A combat; F6F-5
12)351stFG/39thFS 301 kills; lost 141 in A2A combat; P-47N
13)VMF-422 273 kills; lost 50 in A2A combat; F4U-1A
14)VRF-6F 269 kills; lost 7 in A2A combat; F4U-1D
15)VMF-222 264 kills; lost 50 in A2A comba; F4U-1D
16)VRF-2F 260 kills; lost 5 in A2A combat; F4U-1D



A couple of observations here. First....the 51stFG was in the thick of the action the entire war and killed 1340 Japanese AC.

Second....the USN and USMC carrier squadrons lost far fewer planes than the USAAF squadrons. This indicates that the US carrier squadrons had much more of a performance advantage over Japanese carrier AC than did the USAAF fighters over the Japanese land based fighters.



< Message edited by AdmSpruance -- 9/28/2015 12:40:40 AM >

(in reply to richlove)
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RE: TOP GUN ALLIED FIGHTER SQUADRONS - 9/27/2015 11:50:49 PM   
racndoc


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Hey Dave...thanx for posting and welcome to the thread!

(in reply to racndoc)
Post #: 983
RE: TOP GUN ALLIED FIGHTER SQUADRONS - 9/27/2015 11:55:07 PM   
racndoc


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Dave...you mentioned that the subs didnt really affect the Japanese economy but the closure of the South China Sea did. Could you please elaborate on how the closure of Japanese SLOC from the SRA to the Home Islands affected your AC production, naval production, research and pilot training decisions.

Thanx!

(in reply to racndoc)
Post #: 984
RE: TOP GUN ALLIED FIGHTER SQUADRONS - 9/27/2015 11:56:04 PM   
racndoc


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Hey Im finally rated as 5 stars. It must take 2500 posts for that. Only took me 11 years to achieve that.

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RE: TOP GUN ALLIED FIGHTER SQUADRONS - 9/27/2015 11:58:05 PM   
erstad

 

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quote:


Darrin Erstad....was an allstar center fielder for the LA Angels and he is a part owner of the Winery Restaurant so if I treat Dave I would hope that he asks his famous cousin to dinner as I am a huge Angels fan.


Second cousin, actually. And sadly I've never met the guy, or had interaction of any kind with him. Sorry to disappoint!


(in reply to racndoc)
Post #: 986
RE: TOP GUN ALLIED FIGHTER SQUADRONS - 9/27/2015 11:59:24 PM   
racndoc


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Something else that shows how small this world is. Ive lived almost my entire life in California but Dave and I both attended the University of Minnesota in the 1980s. Its possible that we might have met 30 years ago.

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RE: TOP GUN ALLIED FIGHTER SQUADRONS - 9/28/2015 12:03:38 AM   
BBfanboy


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About the USN/USMC vs USAAF fighter performance - my first thought was that the carriers were not able to stay at the front line all the time, unlike air bases, and because they move around carriers are harder for the enemy to find and attack. Would that not result in fewer casualties?

And the USAAF would have been carrying the load in the early part of the war when their pilots were less trained and experienced that the Japanese ones.

Granted that carrier aircraft have to be made tough to handle the landings, so there is some truth to that part of their advantage!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to racndoc)
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RE: TOP GUN ALLIED FIGHTER SQUADRONS - 9/28/2015 12:06:43 AM   
BBfanboy


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erstad: Just wanted to thank you personally for the wild ride! Anyone who can keep KB nearly intact against Spruance for 80% of the war is a great opponent!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: TOP GUN ALLIED FIGHTER SQUADRONS - 10/13/2015 3:49:56 PM   
Eambar


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Thanks to both AdmSpruance and erstad for a great game and an exciting AAR. Followed it for the last half in real time, learnt a lot about the game. Much appreciated!

Cheers,

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