Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

You have to allow the Soviets to get to lvl 3 in certain places, like around Moscow or Leningrad, where it was certainly historical. Requiring FZ would prohibit this, because they are too expensive for the Reds to buy in 1941, and really too expensive for most of the war.

Note that AP buys are basically Red Army penalties only, because after the first few weeks, the Germans should have plenty of APs to burn. At least I do. The Red Army, on the other hand, is always using APs; it's a limited resource for the Reds.

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ORIGINAL: Klydon

The other thing I was thinking about with the Urban bonus is it reflects the use of raw labor; women and children digging ditches. Is such labor capable of siting and constructing more complicated field fortifications?

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ORIGINAL: Klydon

So I stay up late last night to get this done, thinking it should at least get a few comments/observations and I get on this AM to find.. nothing.

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ORIGINAL: Klydon
Hope that helps; if not, I will try to explain it better with another screen shot.

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ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

I've posted this elsewhere, but am copying it here, since it is germaine to the discussion...

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With regard to the fort issue, I still believe that the most elegant solution to this problem is to restrict the ability to transition from level 2 > level 3 fort to those hexes that have a FZ, FR, City, or Urban terrain feature present in the hex. This would be the simplest to code.

For the Soviets in 1941/1942, it would create some tough decisions as to how they should allocate their precious AP pool. Early on, it would force a decision between setting up some prime rear area locations (Leningrad's "backdoor", Perekop Isthmus, etc.) for Level 3+ building, and the creation of the "Soviet All-Stars command reshuffle, and the typical restoring of the C&C disaster in the first few turns. Later on, it will create AP spending tension for setting up good belts around important locations, and the need to conserve APs for the transition to the more "modern" Soviet Army structure. At present, there is little in the way of resource spending tension in these crucial points in time, as the Soviets (as demonstrated) can simply carpet their rear areas and have 50-70 mile thick bands of level 3-4 forts across virtually the entire front by the time Summer 42 rolls around.

The argument that the mid-to-late war Axis *needs* to be able to build high level forts is not negated by this proposed change and indeed, the Axis really have little to spend their APs on in that period. Requiring them to build the FZs to break the Level 3 threshold will be most felt in the need for replacements to go into the FZs (at least temporarily) as they are built, reducing the manpower and armaments to flesh out their army. However, this is still, in my opinion, a more realistic condition, reflecting the redirection of resources on their side.

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I suspect the static units are there to stop players doing unhistorical things like attacking all along the front.

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ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

"The extensive field fortifications that had been constructed by Soviet troops and civilian labor proved useless because of shortages of skilled engineers and of barrier materials". Glantz & House "When Titans Clashed" p 120, describing the Soviet difficulties in stopping the German 1942 offensive.

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

"The extensive field fortifications that had been constructed by Soviet troops and civilian labor proved useless because of shortages of skilled engineers and of barrier materials". Glantz & House "When Titans Clashed" p 120, describing the Soviet difficulties in stopping the German 1942 offensive.

Quite so. But a little context might help -- this was with regards to the lines scratched out in the south in 1942. You are reading the book a bit selectively.

The same civilian labor threw up very good lines elsewhere and at other times. See their comments on the Moscow and Leningrad lines built with civilian labor as opposed to the hasty foxholes of September 1941 the Western Front was in sans said labor.

Civilian labor mattered, and the deepest and most effective fort systems were built with them.

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ORIGINAL: randallw

Freshly made Soviet eng/construction units do have a low experience, probably about 20 or 30.  Should that be considered too high?

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ORIGINAL: highblooded

Hello,

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I suspect the static units are there to stop players doing unhistorical things like attacking all along the front.

Not sure of why the designers placed them in static but in reality, by 1942 the german truckpark had been decimated. For Barbarossa they had 3x20,000 vehicle supply groups (one for each Army). To get this amount many Inf Divs had to give up trucks and make do with handcarts. Most of these vehicles were captured French/British/Civilian etc. The Russian roads took a terrible toll on them and the lack of parts finished many more. I noticed over 200,000 in the starting motorpool for '41 Campaign. From what I have seen this should be very reduced in the game.

The spamming of Sappers/engineers by the Soviet player in AARs and guides seems overboard. Increase the cost or cap to get closer to reallife levels. Qualified engineers for officers dont grow on trees. The soviets may have just stated "Hey you... you're an engineer now" but it does not mean he can get people to build forts.

The major fort building unit sounds like a good idea. Limiting combat units to level 2 is great(and have it take longer as well?). Combat Units should not be able to train or refit while digging in... period.

The limiting of the city bonus to Moscow and Leningrad may solve part of the problem( or to just Heavy and Light Urban hexes). As well as decreasing the distance it works at.

My initial thoughts.

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ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

One thing that could be changed with forts IMHO is the ability of units with high engineer support to dig in to level 1 after taking a hex. That makes it impossible for the opposing player to conduct swift counterattacks against advancing units and leads to players maximising engineer and sapper support in order to dig their way forward. I think it should not be possible to construct forts unless the hex was under your control at the beginning of the turn.